The Business of HockeyDiscuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Franchise sales, valuations, TV contracts, ratings, expansion, relocation, the CBA and work stoppage discussion goes here.
It was funny seeing how the crowd of Canadians changed over there. First it was Hamilton folks wanting to get a team. Some started off curious and then the fighting began and there were some Winnipeg fans just hoping the Yotes would move not thinking they had a chance. Then Hamilton lost and Peg moved into the drivers seat so more Peggers came and a few Hamilton folks were left. Even when Peg got their team the Peggers hung out and got nastier. Its hard to say who really fired the first shot. There are some on AZ Central that were so nasty they left you hoping Arizona would lose all its major league teams. But like I said, different crowd over here.
what i saw in the very beginning of the BK trial was a group of vicious and stunningly ignorant phoenix posters attacking anyone and everyone from canada. and then the canadians fought back. but i guess we all see things differently. interestingly, a couple of the nastier posters migrated over here and apparently cleaned up their act.
They're like sharks (not San Jose Sharks mind you, sharks that 'play' in liquid water). The Thrashers gave them a taste for blood and instead of satiating their appetite, they're now in a feeding frenzy. Of course, there's lingering sentiments of injustice. The Jets & Nordiques are 2 teams they really wanted to get back and with a very active US expansion over the '90s (and 2000), all Canada got out of it was Ottawa. They want more teams considering how much Canada has grown since 1990. My question... First was Winnipeg, next comes Quebec City. Next after that would be GTA2 obviously, but let's talk theoreticals and say GTA2 gets a team somewhere. Where next? Would there be calls for team #4 in Ontario? Would it be Saskatoon or Regina? Where would there be calls for another Canadian city to get a team? Or would their desire for new (or refurbished) NHL teams be satisfied by then?
From a personal pov, I would like the NHL to go back as it was. It's halfway there. We got Jets back, we still want Nordiques back.
After that, honestly I don't care if there is more Canadian teams. Sure, if NHL expands by 6 teams, I would in all logic expect at least one to be a Canadian team but I would not expect that the next 5 relocations (may that take 50 years) to all land in Canada.
what i saw in the very beginning of the BK trial was a group of vicious and stunningly ignorant phoenix posters attacking anyone and everyone from canada. and then the canadians fought back. but i guess we all see things differently. interestingly, a couple of the nastier posters migrated over here and apparently cleaned up their act.
Oh no I agree, just phrasing it differently. The Hamiltonians would pop in and be like "hey what's going on? Are we getting the team?" And the Arizonans would be like "FU! FU your country! IPhone rules!" Then when the Winnipeggers came to the party the knives were already gone. I don't comment there anymore because I don't want to have to sign in on Facebook and have those guys stalking me.
They're like sharks (not San Jose Sharks mind you, sharks that 'play' in liquid water). The Thrashers gave them a taste for blood and instead of satiating their appetite, they're now in a feeding frenzy. Of course, there's lingering sentiments of injustice. The Jets & Nordiques are 2 teams they really wanted to get back and with a very active US expansion over the '90s (and 2000), all Canada got out of it was Ottawa. They want more teams considering how much Canada has grown since 1990. My question... First was Winnipeg, next comes Quebec City. Next after that would be GTA2 obviously, but let's talk theoreticals and say GTA2 gets a team somewhere. Where next? Would there be calls for team #4 in Ontario? Would it be Saskatoon or Regina? Where would there be calls for another Canadian city to get a team? Or would their desire for new (or refurbished) NHL teams be satisfied by then?
Out of curiosity, how much less than the NHL's $170M did the Panthers sell for last time?
The last florida panthers 'sale' was for $0. I don't have the exact figures, but sometime around 2009, the owner at the time, Alan Cohen, simply grew tired of flushing $20 million of his money down the florida panthers toilet every year. He simply threw his keys onto the table, and gave his shares in this gem of a franchise to the 2 lightweights who currently run the team. Somehow, they have managed to keep this house of cards afloat for the past 4 years, but you have to think that something is going to have to give at some point in the near future.
The last florida panthers 'sale' was for $0. I don't have the exact figures, but sometime around 2009, the owner at the time, Alan Cohen, simply grew tired of flushing $20 million of his money down the florida panthers toilet every year. He simply threw his keys onto the table, and gave his shares in this gem of a franchise to the 2 lightweights who currently run the team. Somehow, they have managed to keep this house of cards afloat for the past 4 years, but you have to think that something is going to have to give at some point in the near future.
I believe the reports at the time listed the transfer value as $200 MM, inclusive of some land around the arena, and the arena rights.
I think the priority among Canadian fans is #1 Quebec City, #2 Seattle, and after that, I don't think people really care.
Even as a GTA fan who is all but shut out from Leafs games, I am not passionate in the slightest about a second Toronto team.
If it happens, great! And I will be sitting at my computer when season tickets go on sale hoping to cash in on the secondary market just like everyone else, but the feeling around acquiring the team is nothing like Winnipeg or Quebec.
Winnipeg and Quebec are seen as wrongs that need to be righted. GTA2 has no such sentimental attachments. It is a pure business decision.
I think the priority among Canadian fans is #1 Quebec City, #2 Seattle, and after that, I don't think people really care.
Even as a GTA fan who is all but shut out from Leafs games, I am not passionate in the slightest about a second Toronto team.
If it happens, great! And I will be sitting at my computer when season tickets go on sale hoping to cash in on the secondary market just like everyone else, but the feeling around acquiring the team is nothing like Winnipeg or Quebec.
Winnipeg and Quebec are seen as wrongs that need to be righted. GTA2 has no such sentimental attachments. It is a pure business decision.
I think a lot of Vancouver fans are looking forward to a team in Seattle as we'll finally have the close regional rival most other teams have. Plus I think Seattle is so regionally different from the rest of the US that they are more like Western Canadians than the average American so it would almost be a quasi Canadian team
So what's the latest with the Coyotes' situation? Is there a new deadline to find a new prospective owner? Any rumblings about the legitimacy of some of these "candidates?"
If you assume both the team and $200MM worth of debt, that values the team at $200 MM even though the owners didn't pay one penny.
I still think that the team having a value and what that is can't be swept under the rug just because an owner took on losses that equaled the valuation (or exceeded it). If you compare to Phoenix, Moyes had debt that was far in excess of the team valuation, and that valuation was only bolstered by the fact that the NHL actually paid that amount to a BK court settlement. One cannot say that they're an uninterested party, so it's not like that figure is solely about the team's valuation as the transfer was in the case of Florida.
Cohen had X amount in debt. He transferred the ownership to Siegel and Viner for the reported $200MM, iirc, ergo the value is still that sum. Cohen could have taken the cash and then paid off his debt. Same result.
So what's the latest with the Coyotes' situation? Is there a new deadline to find a new prospective owner? Any rumblings about the legitimacy of some of these "candidates?"
Nothing new... no deadlines... no rumblings.... just silence.
I still think that the team having a value and what that is can't be swept under the rug just because an owner took on losses that equaled the valuation (or exceeded it). If you compare to Phoenix, Moyes had debt that was far in excess of the team valuation, and that valuation was only bolstered by the fact that the NHL actually paid that amount to a BK court settlement. One cannot say that they're an uninterested party, so it's not like that figure is solely about the team's valuation as the transfer was in the case of Florida.
Cohen had X amount in debt. He transferred the ownership to Siegel and Viner for the reported $200MM, iirc, ergo the value is still that sum. Cohen could have taken the cash and then paid off his debt. Same result.
So what's the latest with the Coyotes' situation? Is there a new deadline to find a new prospective owner? Any rumblings about the legitimacy of some of these "candidates?"
Same as it's been since 2008. The market isn't viable for the NHL product; there is no legitimate interest in buying the team; rogue investors cannot close no matter how many pallets of cash Glendale forklifts into the equation; and we'll always get more info in precisely two weeks.
Until the moving vans are parked outside the arena, I still think the CoG might just write a blank cheque to do whatever it takes.
While it is possible that the CoG offers someone a blank check, that doesn't mean that someone will take it. They have offered blank checks in the past and no one has ever been that close to actually buying the team.
Cohen had X amount in debt. He transferred the ownership to Siegel and Viner for the reported $200MM, iirc, ergo the value is still that sum. Cohen could have taken the cash and then paid off his debt. Same result.
I'm confused. My understanding is that the debt was assumed, not paid off. So the option of "taking the cash" was never on the table - there was no cash on the table - and the debt is still there. If that description is accurate (is it?), he essentially bought a $0 call option on an asset with bad cash flow.
I suspect that if the NHL's offer in Glendale was "here, take the team for nothing, run the team and pay us $170M in installments when you can", new owners could have been found right quick.
I'm confused. My understanding is that the debt was assumed, not paid off. So the option of "taking the cash" was never on the table - there was no cash on the table - and the debt is still there. If that description is accurate (is it?), he essentially bought a $0 call option on an asset with bad cash flow.
I suspect that if the NHL's offer in Glendale was "here, take the team for nothing, run the team and pay us $170M in installments when you can", new owners could have been found right quick.
It depends completely on what the installment plan is, and what is meant by "when you can". As long as the total cost is $170 million, I think it is quite clear that the NHL will not easily find credible ownership options, even if Glendale renews the same subsidization offer they put on the table for Jamison.
Same as it's been since 2008. The market isn't viable for the NHL product; there is no legitimate interest in buying the team; rogue investors cannot close no matter how many pallets of cash Glendale forklifts into the equation; and we'll always get more info in precisely two weeks.
We just see $320,000,000 as a number, but that got thinking about just how many pallets it was with the Jamison offer.
$320M = 320,000,000 $1 bills
American currency is approximately 6.125" long x 2.625" wide x 0.004" thick. The base of a standard shipping pallet is 40" x 48". So, you can lay out the bills 6 wide and 18 across, or one layer of 108 bills. A 36-inch high stack, that would be ~ 975,000 bills, but lets round to an even 1,000,000 bills.
$1 - would be 320 pallets of cash the CoG was going to have to print to give to Jamison.
$20 - would be 16 pallets
$100 - would be 3.2 pallets
If these attendance trends continue, the Coyotes could see an additional 64,531 fans pass through the turnstiles. Not accounting for the usual late season bump in attendance, the team stands to take in an additional $2.6 Million dollars in additional ticket revenue alone. If the Coyotes were able to get the average ticket ring up to the NHL average of $61, that $2.6 million, would turn into $3.9 million.
The team is doing slightly better each year off the ice. With no owner, and no effort. Good to see.
I'm confused. My understanding is that the debt was assumed, not paid off. So the option of "taking the cash" was never on the table - there was no cash on the table - and the debt is still there. If that description is accurate (is it?), he essentially bought a $0 call option on an asset with bad cash flow.
I suspect that if the NHL's offer in Glendale was "here, take the team for nothing, run the team and pay us $170M in installments when you can", new owners could have been found right quick.
I was just illustrating that to Cohen, it was the same thing. Let's say he was -$200 MM. The new owners hypothetically say you can have it as cash or we assume your -$200 MM debt. If he were to take it as cash, he then turns around pays off the debt. He no longer owns the team but he also has zero debt. The debt doesn't just disappear because he sells. Not sure how the NHL structured the actual transaction as far as their requirements for 50%; plus the guarantee money, but that's a different issue.
I was just illustrating that to Cohen, it was the same thing. Let's say he was -$200 MM. The new owners hypothetically say you can have it as cash or we assume your -$200 MM debt. If he were to take it as cash, he then turns around pays off the debt. He no longer owns the team but he also has zero debt. The debt doesn't just disappear because he sells. Not sure how the NHL structured the actual transaction as far as their requirements for 50%; plus the guarantee money, but that's a different issue.
Your $200M assumption is correct, as it is generally accepted that little or no money changed hands during the 'transaction'. In your opinion, where did the $200M debt come from? Why was Cohen $200M in debt to begin with?
I think the priority among Canadian fans is #1 Quebec City, #2 Seattle, and after that, I don't think people really care.
Even as a GTA fan who is all but shut out from Leafs games, I am not passionate in the slightest about a second Toronto team.
If it happens, great! And I will be sitting at my computer when season tickets go on sale hoping to cash in on the secondary market just like everyone else, but the feeling around acquiring the team is nothing like Winnipeg or Quebec.
Winnipeg and Quebec are seen as wrongs that need to be righted. GTA2 has no such sentimental attachments. It is a pure business decision.
I agree with you. As another GTA NHL fan I'd love to see a second NHL team in the GTA and I'd be lined up to get tickets, but you're right...there's no groundswell of emotion for a second team.
"At least our new City Council can look for ways to restore city services instead of laying off more people. It won't be easy, but Glendale has a chance now to become financially sound like we were before our council started paying blackmail for an NHL hockey team."
