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Old
02-14-2013, 12:31 AM
  #101
HappyGilmourr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
paul stastny is worse than ROR - they put up the same production but ROR is superior defensively. Stastny is 27, ROR is 22. Stastny's production has regressed.
Yes but I like Stastny's potential to get back to 70 + points playing with Phil Kessel. I just like the fit better. O'Reilly is more of a gamble IMO - one season of 55 points is hardly a no1 centre. It's not like Stastny is a liability defensively either. correct me if i'm wrong though.

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02-14-2013, 12:36 AM
  #102
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Could an Avalanche fan please rank your top 3 centres from 1-3 in terms of importance to your team and a brief description why?

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02-14-2013, 12:38 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I can't speak for him but I'm referring he's referring to those who claimed that they wouldn't trade Gardiner for Duchene straight up last season, and so forth. You know, typical HF hyperbole.
If we didn't have Rielly, there's no way we be trading Gardiner. That's the point I am trying to make. So even if that meant overvaluing him a bit, you can't blame us as he was clearly our best young and promising defense man in our organization last year.

He just made it seem that because Leaf fans are offering Gardiner for O'Reilly that we have in some shape or form soured on him which is absolutely false.

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02-14-2013, 12:46 AM
  #104
Nihiliste
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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
If we didn't have Rielly, there's no way we be trading Gardiner. That's the point I am trying to make. So even if that meant overvaluing him a bit, you can't blame us as he was clearly our best young and promising defense man in our organization last year.

He just made it seem that because Leaf fans are offering Gardiner for O'Reilly that we have in some shape or form soured on him which is absolutely false.
I'm not interested in blaming anyone, simply offering a guess as to why it seems to some Avs fans that his perceived value has decreased in the eyes of some Leafs fans. You seem like a reasonable guy, I understand that you're offering Gardiner because you're trying to offer a quality piece in return for ROR - I'm not sure that I would give certain others the benefit of the doubt in their reasoning however.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
Could an Avalanche fan please rank your top 3 centres from 1-3 in terms of importance to your team and a brief description why?
In a vacuum coming into the year I would have said
ROR
Duchene
Stastny

Even with the holdout, he's still above Stastny in my mind. Stastny can be very effective in the right situation, but I don't think Denver is that situation anymore. If I were Avs management, I'd find a way to get O'reilly signed and not even consider trading him. But alas, here we are.

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02-14-2013, 12:48 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I'm not interested in blaming anyone, simply offering a guess as to why it seems to some Avs fans that his perceived value has decreased in the eyes of some Leafs fans. You seem like a reasonable guy, I understand that you're offering Gardiner because you're trying to offer a quality piece in return for ROR - I'm not sure that I would give certain others the benefit of the doubt in their reasoning however.
Fair enough, I just have seen that particular user take pot shots before.

Cheers

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02-14-2013, 12:54 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Crisp Breakout View Post
See that's just a stupid definition of #1 center. I'm not trying to argue ROR is a top 10 center in the league, and #1 center shouldn't be equivalent to top 10 center. It makes 0 sense.

In general, people need to temper their point expectations. It's not the 1980s anymore.
Why is it stupid, because you don't agree? Or because that definition disproves your theory?

I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously when you proclaim Ryan O'Reilly a number 1 centre. If the Avalanche agreed with your assessment, they'd have no problem paying him 5m/per because that's a bargain for a 1C.

5 million is the price tag for a good #2, and they clearly don't even think he's that.


I love the catch 22 with the Leafs though; they offer crap and are told to get real, so they offer their best young defenseman in a deal to acquire a very good young 2-3 centre and its "oh wow, you guys sure soured on Gardiner in a hurry" ... Can't win. Before it was Kadri - "if he's so good, why is he in so many trade proposals?" Because he was a good young prospect who impatient Leaf fans wanted to flip for someone who could help them now.. I for one, am happy he wasn't traded, much less in one of the HF proposed 'Kadri + Schenn for Stastny' - Schenn netted the Leafs the former 2nd overall pick who currently leads the team in goals, and Kadri has arguably been the Leafs best forward.

Even when Leaf fans offer a good return, the opposing fan base finds a way to $*** on it.

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02-14-2013, 12:56 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I'm not interested in blaming anyone, simply offering a guess as to why it seems to some Avs fans that his perceived value has decreased in the eyes of some Leafs fans. You seem like a reasonable guy, I understand that you're offering Gardiner because you're trying to offer a quality piece in return for ROR - I'm not sure that I would give certain others the benefit of the doubt in their reasoning however.




In a vacuum coming into the year I would have said
ROR
Duchene
Stastny

Even with the holdout, he's still above Stastny in my mind. Stastny can be very effective in the right situation, but I don't think Denver is that situation anymore. If I were Avs management, I'd find a way to get O'reilly signed and not even consider trading him. But alas, here we are.
I wasn't quite in the O'Reilly > Duchene camp coming into this year but yeah...

Duchene
O'Reilly
Stastny

Even with the hold out... Now if we were to get another legit scoring winger to play with Stastny, I'd have to say O'Reilly and Stastny are closer to being even.

I think Stastny is going to be ok when we get Landeskog back and he gets either McGinn back on his wing or Landeskog. I do think Stastny/Landeskog have greater offensive potential than O'Reilly/Landeskog.

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:01 AM
  #108
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id much rather trade Gardiner than Rielly, and it seemed like the leafs management really liked Riellys development so far.

i could see a Gardiner for ROR as it was speculated in the other thread. MR has sky high potential and we dont know what that is yet, and i dont think its worth the risk. ROR would look good in a leaf uniform and from Toronto.

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02-14-2013, 01:05 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post

5 million is the price tag for a good #2, and they clearly don't even think he's that.
Not interested in the rest of the argument but its worth pointing out that (barring the Francois Giguere era) the Avalanche under Lacroix have a particular philosophy on RFA second contracts and stick to their guns. They also have a history of conflict with Don Meehan's agency.

Not wanting to commit 5x5 or something similar has more to do with wanting to set a reasonable benchmark for future RFA signings (Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov) than it does with undervaluing Ryan's role on the team.

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02-14-2013, 01:07 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by CobraAcesS View Post
I love how much Leafs fans have soured on Gardiner, last summer Gardiner was the future of TOR's blue line.
because Gardiner was amazing last year, and it might be the shiny new toy effect, or the fact hes canadian (because i love cheering for them in the olympics/IIHF if they get a chance, hate cheering against them aka kessel) but Rielly looks superior to Gardiner earlier, drafted earlier and could be a huge mistake if we give him away. With Gardiner it would be more of a lateral move aka Schenn for JVR trade and it could benefit both teams right now as well trying to make the playoffs (well gards will be back up soon). If gardiner didn't get this neck/concussion this would have been a done deal based on how he was playing earlier in the AHL.

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02-14-2013, 01:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Not interested in the rest of the argument but its worth pointing out that (barring the Francois Giguere era) the Avalanche under Lacroix have a particular philosophy on RFA second contracts and stick to their guns. They also have a history of conflict with Don Meehan's agency.

Not wanting to commit 5x5 or something similar has more to do with wanting to set a reasonable benchmark for future RFA signings (Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov) than it does with undervaluing Ryan's role on the team.
i think this is true as well, they are trying to drive down the prices for RFA's. good if they sign, bad if they dont.

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02-14-2013, 01:21 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Not interested in the rest of the argument but its worth pointing out that (barring the Francois Giguere era) the Avalanche under Lacroix have a particular philosophy on RFA second contracts and stick to their guns. They also have a history of conflict with Don Meehan's agency.

Not wanting to commit 5x5 or something similar has more to do with wanting to set a reasonable benchmark for future RFA signings (Duchene, Landeskog, Varlamov) than it does with undervaluing Ryan's role on the team.
I don't disagree with the Avs perspective. I actually agree with it, I think wayyy too many players get big deals based on one good season.

I also believe there's exceptions to the rule though; if the Avs viewed O'Reilly as a 1C like 'Crisp breakout' is suggesting, I think they would pay up as that 5m could be a steal towards the back end of that deal.


The Avs are right here though, he's done nothing to warrant that kind of money. If he thinks he's worth it, sign a bridge contract for 2 years and prove it.. Much like Duchene, Subban, Logan Couture etc.

Point is, if the Avalanche viewed him as a number 1 centreman, they'd pay him the 5 million. They aren't purposely trying to short change him due to the RFA factor. Teams genuinely want a deal that makes sense for player and team. 5 million dollars to Ryan O'Reilly doesn't make sense for the organization.

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02-14-2013, 01:23 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
Could an Avalanche fan please rank your top 3 centres from 1-3 in terms of importance to your team and a brief description why?
(Age and end of contract status)

1.Duchene (22 RFA) best offensive upside, his defensive game is so good this year that he's being used on the PK, draws the few PPs we get with his speed, did off season workouts with Crosby to improve his game

2.ROR (22 RFA) great #2 much like Kesler but more of a playmaker than scorer and better defensively.

3.Stastny (27 UFA) age and contract vs Duchene and ROR play against Stastny. A luxury that the avs can't justify paying ($6.6M) for a 1C to play 3C minutes especially when there are other areas of need (DEFENCE,DEFENCE, DEFENCE)

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:25 AM
  #114
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Has there been any actual concrete evidence on how much O'Reilly's camp is asking for?

I've read from 4 years for $20-22, to $5 million x 5 and etc. It would be nice to know the exact asking price.

Some good discussions, I also wonder as some Avs fans pointed out the management relationship with that agency. Could it be his asking for more because of bad blood or trying to get traded? Or Landeskog getting captaincy? I doubt it, I don't really know.

Would be nice to have more insight on that whole situation.

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02-14-2013, 01:35 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
Has there been any actual concrete evidence on how much O'Reilly's camp is asking for?

I've read from 4 years for $20-22, to $5 million x 5 and etc. It would be nice to know the exact asking price.

Some good discussions, I also wonder as some Avs fans pointed out the management relationship with that agency. Could it be his asking for more because of bad blood or trying to get traded? Or Landeskog getting captaincy? I doubt it, I don't really know.

Would be nice to have more insight on that whole situation.
No concrete evidence. Closest thing we have is a friend of RoR who talks to him once in awhile. Said that it's more about how the negotiations went rather than Landy getting captaincy.

I believe Avs offered him same contract as Duchene or something around a 5 yr/17m, RoR wanted around 5 x 5, stats were brought up, negotiations soured and both sides are being preschoolers about the whole situation.

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02-14-2013, 01:38 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
Has there been any actual concrete evidence on how much O'Reilly's camp is asking for?

I've read from 4 years for $20-22, to $5 million x 5 and etc. It would be nice to know the exact asking price.

Some good discussions, I also wonder as some Avs fans pointed out the management relationship with that agency. Could it be his asking for more because of bad blood or trying to get traded? Or Landeskog getting captaincy? I doubt it, I don't really know.

Would be nice to have more insight on that whole situation.
Bobby Mac said on TSN he wants 5x5.. I don't have a link but in the various HF threads I've seen, several other posters who saw the same segment.

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02-14-2013, 01:45 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Lust4LEAFS View Post
Toronto:
O'Rielly
2nd

Colorado:
Gardiner
Bozak
3rd
You could drop the third from Toronto but this is the closest proposal I've seen.

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02-14-2013, 01:49 AM
  #118
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For Rielly? No thanks. For Gardiner? thats tempting.

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02-14-2013, 02:03 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
Could an Avalanche fan please rank your top 3 centres from 1-3 in terms of importance to your team and a brief description why?
Importance to Avs
Duchene
ROR
Stastny

If this was on any other team with a system, contracts aside.

Duchene
Stastny
RoR

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02-14-2013, 03:56 AM
  #120
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I think ROR would be perfect for the leafs. With Kessel and either Lupul or JVR on the wings they don't need a player who puts up 100+ points, they need a player who can play solid defensively, cycle the puck, win face offs and help out offensively. Plus, ROR is from Ontario.

I don't think the Leafs would give up Rielly and I would hope they don't give up Gardiner either. Bozak could be signed to an extension and perhaps some other pieces like Gunnarsson and a second rounder.

To TOR:
ROR

TO COL:
Bozak (Signed for 3 years at 2.5-3 per)
Gunnarsson
2nd 2013

I doubt that gets it done but if that's the framework I would stay in the negotiation. If Rielly or Gardiner have to be included, I'd bow out.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:57 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Why is it stupid, because you don't agree? Or because that definition disproves your theory?

I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously when you proclaim Ryan O'Reilly a number 1 centre. If the Avalanche agreed with your assessment, they'd have no problem paying him 5m/per because that's a bargain for a 1C.
It's stupid because it has no literal attachment to the word. What does #1 center mean? It means a top line center. There are 30 top lines in the league thus roughly 30 #1 centers. There is a group that is between #1 and #2 since it's difficult to draw a bright line through a certain group of talent.

What's hard to take seriously is you. You expect me to believe your assertion that he isn't a first line center because you've arbitrarily defined #1 center, and he doesn't meet your narrow definition that is based on almost no reference point at all. Seriously...

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02-14-2013, 08:43 AM
  #122
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I love how much Leafs fans have soured on Gardiner, last summer Gardiner was the future of TOR's blue line.
Nobody has soured on Gardiner.

Right now he is doing a conditioning stint after his concussion late last year.

The thing with Gardiner is that our two best prospects right now seem to play the same style of game, but Rielly has a higher ceiling. We would like to move a bit from our positional pile of strength to a position of weakness, so a Gardiner - ROR basis for a swap makes sense, at least from a Leafs POV.

It is essentially akin to Phoenix offering Rundblad + for ROR. That doesn't mean they soured on Rundblad, it means they have too many defensive prospects and not enough offence.

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02-14-2013, 08:56 AM
  #123
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I'd hesitate to do Gardiner straight up and actually probably wouldn't when its all said and done..

Rielly has more value than Gardiner so uh, pass.
Yeah no way the Leafs do Gardiner for O'Reilly straight up. Why are so many HF Leafs fans intent on trading Gardiner now? Freaking bipolar fanbase.

Avs can find another sucker to hose with O'Reilly. I mean 26,26,55 points in three seasons and never scoring more then 18 goals. Kadris PPG NHL numbers are light years ahead of this kid and they were drafted in the same draft. Then you include that most people here thought Kadri was a bust up until this year.

Leafs pass.

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02-14-2013, 11:00 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pooleboy View Post
because Gardiner was amazing last year, and it might be the shiny new toy effect, or the fact hes canadian (because i love cheering for them in the olympics/IIHF if they get a chance, hate cheering against them aka kessel) but Rielly looks superior to Gardiner earlier, drafted earlier and could be a huge mistake if we give him away. With Gardiner it would be more of a lateral move aka Schenn for JVR trade and it could benefit both teams right now as well trying to make the playoffs (well gards will be back up soon). If gardiner didn't get this neck/concussion this would have been a done deal based on how he was playing earlier in the AHL.
LOL, gardiner is an American, not a Canadian.

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02-14-2013, 11:07 AM
  #125
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Jesus **** if ROR is as amazing as you Avs fans make it seem he is then ****ing pay the man and stop making trade proposals where you think you'll get an arm and a leg for your 50 point man.

ROR is anything but a guarantee to be a star player one day, and if there is any team dumb enough to give up a top 6 player AND their top prospect for him, I hope its not the Leafs

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