HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Leagues > The KHL
The KHL Discuss the Continental Hockey League (Kontinentalnaya Hokkeynaya Liga).

Draft Juniors KHL 2013 in Donetsk

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-26-2013, 05:44 PM
  #101
Sokil
Ukraine Specialitsky
 
Sokil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 6,227
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
We're any Ukrainians taken today?
donetsk took this ukrainian-born german with their 2nd pick

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=93246

i think this page will be updated with all donbass picks if you're keeping track (like me)
http://gvardia.hcdonbass.com/


Last edited by Sokil: 05-26-2013 at 05:51 PM.
Sokil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2013, 05:58 PM
  #102
Atas2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
To give them a chance to play? (the same issue all over again, see previous posts/threads)

Just for a second, Ak Bars traded out and protected 11(!) 1st round homegrown picks. Do they expect most of those guys to play in Neftyanik Almetyevsk? MHL-B maybe? And what's with this kind of an attitude towards the whole event? Do they realize how embarassing it is for the league? It's like the crappy Tatneft Arena lighting and poor marketing weren't enough.

The only serious issue I see in this topic is the size of the compensation for clubs.
Of course they have no chance to play in the AkBars system

They are 17 year olds. They have years of MHL ahead of them still. You can't seriously expect them to be ready to play in the KHL on any team. Those players who can at this age are very rare and would get a chance in any system.

What's that hysteria about the 11 anyway? There are rules like anywhere else. Did AkBars break or bend any rules to do so?

What attitude? We have to give away what our school worked for years and years just to show some nice attitude to an "event"? Sorry, that's not how it works. Nor is it "embarassing" to the league. It's just the whole idea of a draft in the KHL is ill advised.

And when you are trying a crap shot, try at least to shoot in the right direction. The TatNeft Arena lighting is one of the best in the league. So you just reveal the whole thing is about some personal animosity against AkBars. I also highly doubt you have an idea about the AkBars marketing. Btw, the emphasis in the organisation is on the product on the ice and I like it that way. It starts with a team built the right way. And I feel with the ever mocked SKA fans with all their great marketing and no success on the ice. And I have to ask myself if Dinamo Riga fans would like the team to win something instead of being the perennial underdog. So let's have some lighting an marketing ahead of good hockey. Way to go.

Atas2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2013, 08:30 PM
  #103
smitty10
Registered User
 
smitty10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,085
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
donetsk took this ukrainian-born german with their 2nd pick

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=93246

i think this page will be updated with all donbass picks if you're keeping track (like me)
http://gvardia.hcdonbass.com/
Thanks for the info!

smitty10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-26-2013, 10:26 PM
  #104
Mathradio
Go Roy Munson!
 
Mathradio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I think it's basically against EU laws as well.
The Bozeman ruling applies to soccer, but does it extend to hockey?

Mathradio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 01:38 AM
  #105
Vicente
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cologne
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,419
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathradio View Post
The Bozeman ruling applies to soccer, but does it extend to hockey?
Yes it does in many aspects. EU working law is valid in the whole EU and for all companies - which professional sports teams are aswell acc to the Bosman ruling (how couldn't they?).

Let's say a kid from Germany, Sweden or Finland is drafted by Dinamo Riga but they rather want to play for Lev Prague or Slovan Bratislava then they can get to a court because the KHL Draft doesn't give them free choice of employer and the court will say they are right.

Vicente is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 01:50 AM
  #106
obskyr
Registered User
 
obskyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Karelia
Posts: 687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Of course they have no chance to play in the AkBars system
They are 17 year olds. They have years of MHL ahead of them still. You can't seriously expect them to be ready to play in the KHL on any team. Those players who can at this age are very rare and would get a chance in any system.
I am not arguing with the fact that those 11 guys won't be able to start playing in the KHL right away. But I also don't see how different their careers could've been from Zaytsev or Slepyshev had they left Kazan.

Quote:
What's that hysteria about the 11 anyway? There are rules like anywhere else. Did AkBars break or bend any rules to do so?

What attitude? We have to give away what our school worked for years and years just to show some nice attitude to an "event"? Sorry, that's not how it works. Nor is it "embarassing" to the league. It's just the whole idea of a draft in the KHL is ill advised.
And you can easily compromise whatever rules there are. On a second thought it may be necessary to expose the exact flaws of the system that is still raw. Which doesn't change the fact that buying out five 1st round picks even when you already have five protection picks is a deliberate sabotage of what the KHL is trying to build with this draft. They didn't keep it behind the doors negotiating on the terms of the procedure with the league management, they went straight out to turn the entire thing into a farce.

Quote:
And when you are trying a crap shot, try at least to shoot in the right direction. The TatNeft Arena lighting is one of the best in the league. So you just reveal the whole thing is about some personal animosity against AkBars. I also highly doubt you have an idea about the AkBars marketing. Btw, the emphasis in the organisation is on the product on the ice and I like it that way. It starts with a team built the right way. And I feel with the ever mocked SKA fans with all their great marketing and no success on the ice. And I have to ask myself if Dinamo Riga fans would like the team to win something instead of being the perennial underdog. So let's have some lighting an marketing ahead of good hockey. Way to go.
Oh, really? I feel like I'm black-marked now. I don't really care that much for Ak Bars. You can easily go picking on the majority of the KHL clubs, you know. So if it cools you down now I'm grateful to AB for giving me an opportunity to watch broadcasts with the best lighting in the league and I'm no less happy that they can afford to put on the best on ice product among the teams that play in front of half empty arenas.

obskyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 04:16 AM
  #107
ozo
Registered User
 
ozo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Latvia
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to ozo
Asa fan of Kazakh hockey I'm kinda excited that Donbass took Roman Khalikov off Ak Bars hands. It slightly increases the chances that he some day might suit up for Kazakh NT. As Donbass has no foreigner restrictions, him being labelled as foreigner doesn't ruin his chances to make the grade at the club.

Also worth noting that Barys is already working on a deal to return #4 pick Semyon Koshelev back to Kazakhstan instantly. And interesting see what kind of an attitude will Danil Svinukhov get from Vladivostok's club as he is their last round pick. Obviously all nams mentioned are kids from Ust-Kamenogorsk.

ozo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 04:25 AM
  #108
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Asa fan of Kazakh hockey I'm kinda excited that Donbass took Roman Khalikov off Ak Bars hands. It slightly increases the chances that he some day might suit up for Kazakh NT. As Donbass has no foreigner restrictions, him being labelled as foreigner doesn't ruin his chances to make the grade at the club.

Also worth noting that Barys is already working on a deal to return #4 pick Semyon Koshelev back to Kazakhstan instantly. And interesting see what kind of an attitude will Danil Svinukhov get from Vladivostok's club as he is their last round pick. Obviously all nams mentioned are kids from Ust-Kamenogorsk.
thx for info, it is difficult to differ who is kazakh by nationality, who russian and who double..

I was suprised that Koshelev was drafted by Neftekhimik and not Barys. Maybe Barys wanted him but Neftekhimik was lucky to pick earlier. Any rumour that there will be trade Neftekhimik-Barys-Koshelev?

vorky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 04:42 AM
  #109
ozo
Registered User
 
ozo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Latvia
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to ozo
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
thx for info, it is difficult to differ who is kazakh by nationality, who russian and who double..

I was suprised that Koshelev was drafted by Neftekhimik and not Barys. Maybe Barys wanted him but Neftekhimik was lucky to pick earlier. Any rumour that there will be trade Neftekhimik-Barys-Koshelev?
You can call them all duals. All are ethic Russians, but born in Kazakhstan. If they are really good, they are tapped up (or they themselves prefer to play for) by Russia NT, if they are medioce-ish on worlds scale at junior age they play for Kazakh NT's. I have no doubt that if Khalikov will be called by Russian u18's he will report instantly. And I don't blame him.

A lot of promising juniors have been capped by Russian junior NT's, but later havent amounted to much and have lost right to play for Kazakhstan later, which is a shame. Though there are occasional Perezhogin out there, though knowing how insanely good you have to be to crack Russian senior rosters, scenarios of becoming Pestunov's of this world are more likely.

And president of Barys confirms exactly that Barys wanted Koshelev, who is most skilled F coming out of Ustinka's school in past 10 years, but they didn't have their pick early enough as it turned out and that trade is in works.

http://yvision.kz/post/354563

Also if you wonder why the trick doesn't work other way, why Astana or Riga don't go skilled Russians in first round. Answer is simple Russia picking Russian kids cost 100K each. Riga have learned the trick that there's more value in selling them to teams like Kazan who did what any team with spectacular graduate class should do - help their interests.

ozo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 10:53 AM
  #110
J17 Vs Proclamation
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Reading.
Country: South Korea
Posts: 7,808
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to J17 Vs Proclamation
Can anyone give a summary of some of the stronger and weaker KHL schools please?

J17 Vs Proclamation is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 10:57 AM
  #111
marquinhos
Registered User
 
marquinhos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kazan
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 87
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Can anyone give a summary of some of the stronger and weaker KHL schools please?
Do you wanna ranking?

marquinhos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 11:05 AM
  #112
ozo
Registered User
 
ozo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Latvia
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to ozo
Quote:
Originally Posted by marquinhos View Post
Do you wanna ranking?
I would be interested in some sort of rankings, at least tiered one.

ozo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 11:19 AM
  #113
marquinhos
Registered User
 
marquinhos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Kazan
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 87
vCash: 500
Well, i haven't it. But I think we can analyzed this:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/league...d=228&sort=age

Best schools have smaller the average age of the team, than another. Right? So comparing age and a game in this season, it can be assumed that the best schools in the Dynamo, Spartak, CSKA Moscow, Kazan and on Urals.

marquinhos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 11:22 AM
  #114
ozo
Registered User
 
ozo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Latvia
Posts: 2,756
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to ozo
Quote:
Originally Posted by marquinhos View Post
Well, i haven't it. But I think we can analyzed this:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/league...d=228&sort=age

Best schools have smaller the average age of the team, than another. Right? So comparing age and a game in this season, it can be assumed that the best schools in the Dynamo, Spartak, CSKA Moscow, Kazan and on Urals.
Not always, that can also indicate, that one birth year for school is vastly superiour to other, without actually showing any clear signs of being that good to begin with on bigger stage.

ozo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 05:16 PM
  #115
bostonscout02
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 5
vCash: 500
first american to go in the draft NTDP d man Brandon Fortunato. Not sure if this is a surprise or not. Watched a ton this year and he really is a special player

bostonscout02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 09:41 PM
  #116
Atas2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
I am not arguing with the fact that those 11 guys won't be able to start playing in the KHL right away. But I also don't see how different their careers could've been from Zaytsev or Slepyshev had they left Kazan.
Now you argue we have 11 potential WJC squad members. Pretty logical...

Zaytsev and Slepyshev are pretty much top of the crop at their respective positions. If you start comparing every prospect to them it leads you right into obscurity.

And then please find me a reason why we should give those players up without any compensation? I have no objections about prospects being sent elsewhere as long as we get something in return. What else is the point of having a hockey school?

How different their carrers would be? So they would be drafted by some perennial bottom feeder and a year or two later AkBars(just to make it clearer) would have to pay to get back the players AkBars payed for all the years in the own hckey school. Yeah, sounds "great" and so "logical". That's what happened to Zaytsev and Slepyshev. They ended up with some powerhouses, that had to pay the teams that drafted them.

You want the draft? It will destroy the hockey school system and russian hockey with it. Go ahead, because we don't have the players from AkBars, Traktor, Magnitka, CSKA and Omsk schools being the mainframe of the WJC team every year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
And you can easily compromise whatever rules there are. On a second thought it may be necessary to expose the exact flaws of the system that is still raw. Which doesn't change the fact that buying out five 1st round picks even when you already have five protection picks is a deliberate sabotage of what the KHL is trying to build with this draft. They didn't keep it behind the doors negotiating on the terms of the procedure with the league management, they went straight out to turn the entire thing into a farce.
Now you are going waaaaay to far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
Oh, really? I feel like I'm black-marked now. I don't really care that much for Ak Bars. You can easily go picking on the majority of the KHL clubs, you know. So if it cools you down now I'm grateful to AB for giving me an opportunity to watch broadcasts with the best lighting in the league and I'm no less happy that they can afford to put on the best on ice product among the teams that play in front of half empty arenas.
Your attempt is noted.

Atas2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-27-2013, 09:48 PM
  #117
Atas2000
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,119
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Can anyone give a summary of some of the stronger and weaker KHL schools please?
There can be no real ranking. If a school produces a superstar that doesn't mean they will every year after. There is anumber of schools that traditionally produce a lot of good players. They deliver around 80% of top talent. Thee rest are the natural talents from smaller schools. Every once in a while one of the big schools has a better crop than the others.

Atas2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 12:43 AM
  #118
vorky
@vorkywh24
 
vorky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
And then please find me a reason why we should give those players up without any compensation?
Why Ak Bars gave Rinat Valiev to USHL for free? Why Burmistrov for free? The same CSKA, Dynamo and go on.

vorky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 03:18 AM
  #119
Spektanto
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Chelyabinsk
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 269
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Can anyone give a summary of some of the stronger and weaker KHL schools please?
You can try to find out the school whose players are drafted more often than others. This year leader is obviously Ak Bars.

Spektanto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 04:53 AM
  #120
obskyr
Registered User
 
obskyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Karelia
Posts: 687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
Now you argue we have 11 potential WJC squad members. Pretty logical...
No, I don't. I'm just sure that 25 clubs would give you more opportunities to develop in Russia as opposed to only one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
And then please find me a reason why we should give those players up without any compensation? I have no objections about prospects being sent elsewhere as long as we get something in return. What else is the point of having a hockey school?

How different their carrers would be? So they would be drafted by some perennial bottom feeder and a year or two later AkBars(just to make it clearer) would have to pay to get back the players AkBars payed for all the years in the own hckey school. Yeah, sounds "great" and so "logical". That's what happened to Zaytsev and Slepyshev. They ended up with some powerhouses, that had to pay the teams that drafted them.
There's no reason giving out them for free, that's why the ~75k euro compensation exists.
Let's also not pretend that all those guys are homegrown Kazanites, the school does bring many kids from other cities without fostering them since their first years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
You want the draft? It will destroy the hockey school system and russian hockey with it. Go ahead, because we don't have the players from AkBars, Traktor, Magnitka, CSKA and Omsk schools being the mainframe of the WJC team every year.
The major club school centered system is obsolete in the first place. Russia will continue to produce as many hockey players as the Czech Republic or Sweden do until it manages to build up an independent school system similar to the US and Canada, there are no other reasonable ways for such a big country. The problem is that the FHR being directly responsible for this kind of thing is run by the hopelessly Soviet-minded people whose competence is rather questionable and worldview is deeply archaic.

The draft at this moment is the way to bring the attention to the state of youth hockey, it generates discussion, it shakes things up. That's what the KHL is doing with an over-exhausted body of ex-USSR hockey for years already. And as for major club hockey it appears to be the only way to balance the league at least in the long run. Because we all see that the salary cap doesn't cope with that. You may try bringing it lower, but I'm not sure if it's going be too easy or beneficial for the competitiveness of the league against the NHL.

obskyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 05:30 AM
  #121
BalticWarrior
Registered User
 
BalticWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Riga
Country: Latvia
Posts: 4,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
No, I don't. I'm just sure that 25 clubs would give you more opportunities to develop in Russia as opposed to only one.



There's no reason giving out them for free, that's why the ~75k euro compensation exists.
Let's also not pretend that all those guys are homegrown Kazanites, the school does bring many kids from other cities without fostering them since their first years.



The major club school centered system is obsolete in the first place. Russia will continue to produce as many hockey players as the Czech Republic or Sweden do until it manages to build up an independent school system similar to the US and Canada, there are no other reasonable ways for such a big country. The problem is that the FHR being directly responsible for this kind of thing is run by the hopelessly Soviet-minded people whose competence is rather questionable and worldview is deeply archaic.

The draft at this moment is the way to bring the attention to the state of youth hockey, it generates discussion, it shakes things up. That's what the KHL is doing with an over-exhausted body of ex-USSR hockey for years already. And as for major club hockey it appears to be the only way to balance the league at least in the long run. Because we all see that the salary cap doesn't cope with that. You may try bringing it lower, but I'm not sure if it's going be too easy or beneficial for the competitiveness of the league against the NHL.
Exactly,i agree with you,until KHL gets rid of these old Soviet guardsmen,you cant advance the league.

BalticWarrior is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 09:05 AM
  #122
Theokritos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
The major club school centered system is obsolete in the first place. Russia will continue to produce as many hockey players as the Czech Republic or Sweden do until it manages to build up an independent school system similar to the US and Canada
1) You think the North American school system is better than the European?
2) Czech Republic and Sweden have club school centered systems too I think and (according to you) they're doing well compared to Russia. Still you think the club school centered system is the problem?

Theokritos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 10:53 AM
  #123
obskyr
Registered User
 
obskyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Karelia
Posts: 687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
1) You think the North American school system is better than the European?
2) Czech Republic and Sweden have club school centered systems too I think and (according to you) they're doing well compared to Russia. Still you think the club school centered system is the problem?
1) That's actually the impression you may get simply looking at the WJC18 medal table.
2) Czech Republic and Sweden are not comparable to Russia, a nation of 143 million people scattered over a huge landmass. And just the fact that they have more hockey players than Russia is shameful, but not too surprising since hockey in Russia outside of the regions that are homes of the major clubs is a dead end sport at best.

obskyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 01:29 PM
  #124
Theokritos
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,762
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
1) That's actually the impression you may get simply looking at the WJC18 medal table.
The USA have as many people playing hockey at junior level as all European countries combined. Canada has even more. Their developement systems would have to be pretty awful to not get a lot of success out of their superior talent pools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by obskyr View Post
2) Czech Republic and Sweden are not comparable to Russia, a nation of 143 million people scattered over a huge landmass. And just the fact that they have more hockey players than Russia is shameful...
Who says they have more hockey players? I think Russia is actually ahead of them.

Theokritos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-28-2013, 04:21 PM
  #125
metmag
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Nepean
Country: Canada
Posts: 159
vCash: 500
5 protection picks is too much. It should be 3 at most.

If 5 of those 5 protection picks play out their careers in the MHL and graduate (5 every year), then the entire Ak-Bars roster would be renewed with Kazan born prospects every 5 years! wtf is that about? Thats never gonna happen.

You can even see with Ak-Bars that the players that could actually make the roster; Burmistrov, Bocharov, Golubev, Petrov, etc... would have easily been protected by the 2-3 protection picks. And if that's not enough, which it is, then you even have your draft picks on top that you can use.

Besides, I'm more than certain that you can pick up better prospects from independent schools with the draft than you would be losing. So its a win win.

More importantly it creates parity in the league. I am convinced that the Ak-Bars prospect snatched up by donbass will develop better there instead of being the 12th retained player and next year back to the same old same old.
Its funny this is coming from Ak-Bars as well since they are the most stingy team with letting prospects play on the roster.
In this team, an elite prospect is guaranteed to ride the pine and maybe get 2 minutes of playing time, in front of a half empty arena if he's lucky. The year after he will probably be sent to Khanti Mansii anyway. The rest of the prospects will be leaving hockey or fighting for spots with Neftyanik, who's school graduates would also like those spots.

The only problem with the draft I have is physical geographical location. A 17 year old should not have to be uprooted from Moscow and sent to Yekaterinburg to just play Junior. Thats nuts. In the NHL, only if a junior player signs with the drafting team and goes to the AHL/NHL then its OK to move.

This KHL draft is like saying a junior can be drafted from the Halifax Mooseheads in the QMJHL and then sent to play with the Kamloops Blazers in the WHL at 17. That is ridiculous, unless the MHL teams had a 2-way contract of somekind.

Maybe the players could stay with the previous MHL team and are only allowed to be moved if its to the new teams VHL(or farm) or a KHL call up. This might get messy though.

metmag is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.