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Game #13 -- Wed Feb 13, 2013 - Blues @ Red Wings - 7:30 p.m.| NBCSN, TSN2

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:10 PM
  #701
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just take this situation into account:

A certain player has played 7 seasons with the Wings.

He's played 505 games, scored 110 Red Wings goal, had 140 Red Wings assists for a total of 250 Red Wings points (that's essentially .5 ppg, excellent for a non-superstar player by most standards, especially for his tweener role). He was once a fan favorite and a very diverse player who could play in the top six and bottom six. He has a recent skid of very poor play in the last 11 games or so, and now people won't hesitate to savage him at any given moment if they perceive him as having made a mistake.

I'm not even going to name this player.

I question how easy it will be for people to turn on Datsyuk if he ever had a bad skid like this player who shall go unnamed. I think it is quite possible this could happen. Heck, last year there were some who were ready to turn on Zetterberg.

And then you have the numerous people who think Holland should have traded for X and signed Y, having no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the GM's office. Frankly, judging by face value, you'd think that they believed Kenny was trying to sabotage the team... And then, without any evidence, they attack the GM for not trying to fix the team this offseason, even though the evidence suggests the opposite.

And then there are the couch potato coaches who think they know better than Babcock. They overlook his track record, the best among all coaches in the league, and won't hesitate to slam him if he doesn't play player X or sit player Y. Don't get me wrong, I question the decisions management makes too, but I'm here sitting on my behind typing this up, and they're there making money working their jobs. If Mr. Illitch thought they were 1/4 as bad some of these so called fans make management out to be, they'd be fired on the spot.

Frankly, I'm ashamed to call them fellow Wings fans. Sure, we can criticize management. I'm all open to that. There's a certain point where I draw the line between legitimate criticism and ridiculous criticism, and for some people here they're already well beyond that line. It appears they just take for granted 21 straight years of playoff success, and anything less than winning the Cup or reaching the WCF every year is absolutely unacceptable, so much so that management should be fired. I call that unrealistic and unfair. Thank the Lord for the ignore function. Utilize it well.
This post should be stickied to the top. People turn their backs on players that have gave so much, then call them "done". Remember Osgood was "done" then he came in and won a cup in 2008 and could have easily won the MVP. People were throwing Osgood under the bus before that.

Zetterberg had a bad stretch and people were calling for his head and wanted him traded. This year he is proving to be one of the best players in the NHL. Funny how that works.

People want to trade trash for superstars, it makes no sense why Jets want Mursak, Emmerton and a signed Lebda stick for Bogo... but people really hate Holland because he can't trade trash for good players.

On the flip side, if Holland gave up what it would really take to get said player, this forum would have an epic meltdown. For example, a first for Quincey was a fair deal because he was a RFA and ultimately signed to a fair contract. I will get flamed for saying that, but it is fact!

Same with Ericsson, people FLIPPED at Big Rigs contract, now it is a bargain. He's been good. Those same people won't come forward admit they were wrong. They are ALWAYS wrong, yet they keep yapping like they know what they are talking about. It is free entertainment, I guess.

Oh and don't compare Kronwalls stats to Quinceys, because that doesn't count. Yet these same people use stats to backup the argument in their favor.

Welcome to HF-hypocrisy.

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02-14-2013, 01:30 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I think every player prefers off season surgery rather than inseason surgery... I bet it has to do with the fact playing is their job and they don't want to miss any games at any point of the season if possible.

This has got to be your most favorite strawman argument. Read and spend more than 1 second at least attempting to comprehend what I've said before you make false accusations about me.
There is nothing straw man about my argument. You think players should not be criticized if they are wearing the Winged Wheel.

Mike Babcock and hundreds of other coaches have perfectly explained the situation.

"What have you done for me lately?"

You basically want us to watch YouTube videos of Cleary doing something useful after every awful play he makes in the present.

Wearing the Wingeed Wheel does not mean you dont suck. It does not mean you are immune to criticism. I will not blindly support terrible players like Dan Cleary. He used to be good. Key part of that sentence is, "USED TO BE."


He needs to be put in the press box where he belongs and let Nyquist take his spot.

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02-14-2013, 01:30 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I'm pointing out how friggin fickle this section of the fanbase can shamelessly be. If they will turn on Zetterberg, they will turn on Wayne Gretzky if it came down to it. This whole "Heap praises on him when he's succeeding and tear him apart for a short length of time if his play drops off" is arbitrary and ludicrous.
Fans are fickle because hockey, and professional sports in general, are fickle.

These are athletes who play hundreds of games and take thousands of shifts -- opinions are subject to change, and change often.

Rigid viewpoints are best left to history and politics.

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Que? He had a injury plagued season last year, and has had a very poor showing a quarter of the way in, that's more like dropping off the face of the earth than declining for a while... I'm not sure what part of scoring 26 goals in 68 games is declining.
His play wasn't the same in the '11 playoffs either. That's almost two years ago, which I consider declining for a while.

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02-14-2013, 01:31 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
This post should be stickied to the top. People turn their backs on players that have gave so much, then call them "done". Remember Osgood was "done" then he came in and won a cup in 2008 and could have easily won the MVP. People were throwing Osgood under the bus before that.

Zetterberg had a bad stretch and people were calling for his head and wanted him traded. This year he is proving to be one of the best players in the NHL. Funny how that works.

People want to trade trash for superstars, it makes no sense why Jets want Mursak, Emmerton and a signed Lebda stick for Bogo... but people really hate Holland because he can't trade trash for good players.

On the flip side, if Holland gave up what it would really take to get said player, this forum would have an epic meltdown. For example, a first for Quincey was a fair deal because he was a RFA and ultimately signed to a fair contract. I will get flamed for saying that, but it is fact!

Same with Ericsson, people FLIPPED at Big Rigs contract, now it is a bargain. He's been good. Those same people won't come forward admit they were wrong. They are ALWAYS wrong, yet they keep yapping like they know what they are talking about. It is free entertainment, I guess.

Oh and don't compare Kronwalls stats to Quinceys, because that doesn't count. Yet these same people use stats to backup the argument in their favor.

Welcome to HF-hypocrisy.
No. Welcome to you being unable to do critical thinking.

1. There are many posters here.

2. We have different opinions.

3. You are confusing one person's opinions with another's. As in, some guys say that E is a bum, you think all guys are saying that, so when another guy says later, "E is playing awesome!" you think it's hypocrisy when in fact, it's just two different people's opinions. I really just think you need to look up what hypocrisy actually means. Right now I think you're using hypocrisy when you really just mean "objective."

4. Opinions can change and it's not hypocrisy. It's called being a rational human being that changes their opinions based on the evidence in front of them. You know what we call people who never change their opinions when the world around them is changing? Idiots. Generally the unadapting die in the natural world.

Now that your logical deficiencies have been addressed, let's go to your actual points, though I hesitate to call them points.

1. Zetterberg - Please show me how many people actually wanted him traded. I know this will be hard for you to grasp, but it's possible to criticize a player's play without wanting him to be traded. As I remember it, most people last year recognized that Zetterberg was slower and not as good as he used to be. I can't remember a specific person actually calling for a trade, though it may have happened. I doubt it was anything close to approaching a majority of the posters here, no matter how much you want it to be true so you can paint all of us as "hypocrites."

2. Riiight. People propose bad trades all the time here. You know what happens to them? People tell them why it's a bad trade and the other team would never go for it. The reason people complain about Holland is because for the past few years he's seemed unable or unwilling (really doesn't matter which) to make the big moves to prepare for the inevitable. Lidstrom leaving is huge. Rafalski left right before him. Stuart left with Lidstrom. There were options out there, not only to address our defense concerns but also to address the needs for a scoring winger for Pavel. We addressed neither, and then we hear Holland in an interview say that he "likes our team," "parity," "price was too high." That makes it sound like he didn't even try.

3. Q signing a fair contract is not a fact, that is pretty much the textbook definition of an opinion. But trust me, I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference. Q traded away a first round pick for a whipping boy. A whipping boy who very much deserves it. Q is trash. I called him trash last year watching him play and he hasn't done much improving this year either. So trash he remains. But guess what?! If he gets better, I will readjust my opinion of him because that's what rational human beings do! When the facts change, so do opinions! MAGIC!

4. For starters, I have been defending E since 2010. But that was based on potential and hope, not on his actual performance. I saw his potential in the 2009 playoffs and my hope was that he could reach that again. He didn't actually start playing to that level until sometime last year. When a player is sucking, people have every right to complain about their play. When a player is playing well, people are right to praise them. My correctly predicting that E would return to form does not make everyone else who didn't predict that a hypocrite, I just like to think it makes me a better judge of skill/potential/worth. That has nothing to do with hypocrisy.

5. Mmm. No. It's not that stats don't matter, it's because you're using only +/-, a knowingly flawed stat, and over a very small sample size. 13 games? 12 games? Yeah... Over a career, +/- shows a trend, but over 13 games, +/- is pretty damn worthless. You know what's a really telling statistic though? Quincey's plummeting ice time. I think even Babcock knows how bad he is now.

Hope this was informative and scathing at the same time.

Quote:
Fans are fickle because hockey, and professional sports in general, are fickle.
It's not even being fickle. You like players on your team because they help your team WIN. Ultimately, you are rooting for the TEAM, not the player. I'm happy when Datsyuk scores. I am not happy when the team loses. I am happier when the team wins and Datsyuk is pointless than when the team loses and Datsyuk gets a hattrick. It's about the team.

If the team isn't winning, I want changes made so that the team wins. If that means dumping a player that has sucked for 2+ years to make room for fresh young talent that has performed outstandingly in the AHL, then hell yes I want that to happen. Thanks Cleary, for being awesome for a few years, but now it's time to go. Just as it was time to go for Osgood, Maltby, Draper, Holmstrom, and dozens of other amazing, legendary, iconic Red Wings that could no longer compete at the level they needed to compete.

Wings fans for the most part, love those four players I mentioned. That doesn't mean they have to want them to also keep playing for the Wings. They are not physically ABLE to play at that level anymore. So it's time to move on. THERE IS NOTHING FICKLE ABOUT THAT. People are let go all the time for being unable to do their job. That's not disloyalty, that's not hypocrisy, that's not fickleness, that is freaking LIFE. Hell, all those guys can have jobs for life within the organization. They know that. They are SET, taken care of.


Last edited by Flowah: 02-14-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 01:51 PM
  #705
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WSD6Y2YWj4

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02-14-2013, 02:35 PM
  #706
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Meh. Defensive breakdowns cost us. Howard wasn't bad but didn't make miracle saves.

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02-14-2013, 02:37 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Meh. Defensive breakdowns cost us. Howard wasn't bad but didn't make miracle saves.
Horrible special teams cost us the game. And Howard has only stole one game so far this year. He needs to be much better.

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02-14-2013, 02:46 PM
  #708
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Horrible special teams cost us the game. And Howard has only stole one game so far this year. He needs to be much better.
Agreed. Howard needs to look more like the Howard we saw vs. LA than the one from last night.

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02-14-2013, 02:55 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
There is nothing straw man about my argument. You think players should not be criticized if they are wearing the Winged Wheel.
I've never said such a thing.

Quote:
Mike Babcock and hundreds of other coaches have perfectly explained the situation.

"What have you done for me lately?"
Then Coach Babcock must have a different definition of "lately" than you do. His must entail a couple of years rather than an arbitrary handful of games.

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Wearing the Wingeed Wheel does not mean you dont suck.
Who's arguing this? I'm not.
Quote:
It does not mean you are immune to criticism.
That's fine and all, but this criticism has gone overboard based on a few games after he has been healthy.
Quote:
I will not blindly support terrible players like Dan Cleary. He used to be good. Key part of that sentence is, "USED TO BE."
It's unfortunate you're so hasty to throw someone under the bus like this the moment you perceive them to outrun their usefulness. It was only a couple of months ago that none of us were even expecting Cleary to suck this badly. At least I didn't. Now of course I was wrong, but that should tell you how quick so many of you will jump the gun and downright tear apart anyone who dares play badly.

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02-14-2013, 02:56 PM
  #710
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lol :p

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Old
02-14-2013, 03:56 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just take this situation into account:

A certain player has played 7 seasons with the Wings.

He's played 505 games, scored 110 Red Wings goal, had 140 Red Wings assists for a total of 250 Red Wings points (that's essentially .5 ppg, excellent for a non-superstar player by most standards, especially for his tweener role). He was once a fan favorite and a very diverse player who could play in the top six and bottom six. He has a recent skid of very poor play in the last 11 games or so, and now people won't hesitate to savage him at any given moment if they perceive him as having made a mistake.

I'm not even going to name this player.
Easy on the name calling, bud- we prefer "logical fans accustomed to success" and "providers of objective criticism when warranted" to spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just an FYI

Why are you playing the career stats game with Cleary anyway? Nobody is denying that he was an asset to the team years ago, so why not point out Maltby's career stats while you're at it? The point is that beginning with last season, he's become a liability on the ice. Hell, Maltby is better than Cleary for the Wings this season just b/c he's not out there dragging down a line on every shift.

Quote:
I question how easy it will be for people to turn on Datsyuk if he ever had a bad skid like this player who shall go unnamed. I think it is quite possible this could happen. Heck, last year there were some who were ready to turn on Zetterberg.
I'm sure Cleary would be flattered that you're putting his career achievements and value to the team on the same level with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but even he would tell you to drinking that much whiskey on top of your Nyquil has impaired your judgment to a very large extent.

Quote:
And then there are the couch potato coaches who think they know better than Babcock. They overlook his track record, the best among all coaches in the league, and won't hesitate to slam him if he doesn't play player X or sit player Y. Don't get me wrong, I question the decisions management makes too, but I'm here sitting on my behind typing this up, and they're there making money working their jobs. If Mr. Illitch thought they were 1/4 as bad some of these so called fans make management out to be, they'd be fired on the spot.
Babs is a great coach, but I don't see why he should be immune to criticism for rolling Cleary on the top line and PP so much when he is killing the team. He has other options and he's choosing his boy Danny. He's doing other things well, including keeping the team competitive despite an AHL-level defense corps.

Yes, the coaches and players get paid to do their jobs, but a paycheck shouldn't shield someone from criticism. The Eagles are my favorite NFL team- was I wrong to be killing Vick the last 2 seasons for committing turnovers like he was Cleary on a football field (sorry, it was just there for me)? Nope, it was legitimate criticism b/c he was hindering the team's chances of winning each week.

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Frankly, I'm ashamed to call them fellow Wings fans. Sure, we can criticize management. I'm all open to that. There's a certain point where I draw the line between legitimate criticism and ridiculous criticism, and for some people here they're already well beyond that line.
Every fan has their own line that separates what they deem to be legit criticism from over-the-top criticism. It's pretty obvious that your line happens to be in the vicinity of "virtually any criticism leveled against Wings players, coaches or management is ridiculous and unwarranted b/c of past accomplishments and the fact that they get paid." Seems accurate, right?

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02-14-2013, 04:08 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers.

Frankly, I'm ashamed to call them fellow Wings fans.
Hahah.

You're "ashamed?"

Someone needs to get some bloody perspective.

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02-14-2013, 04:19 PM
  #713
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People want to trade trash for superstars, it makes no sense why Jets want Mursak, Emmerton and a signed Lebda stick for Bogo... but people really hate Holland because he can't trade trash for good players.
If you're contending that Holland has only trash to offer in trades, then as GM he would have been the architect behind said trash collection. I'm guessing you weren't saying that, though...

Some people here are frustrated b/c he's shown a reluctance to shake the up the roster to make a deal for a player of significance recently (the Stuart acquisition was the last significant trade he pulled off, and yes, that includes the Quincey deal).

Quote:
On the flip side, if Holland gave up what it would really take to get said player, this forum would have an epic meltdown. For example, a first for Quincey was a fair deal because he was a RFA and ultimately signed to a fair contract. I will get flamed for saying that, but it is fact!
You typing "it is fact!" doesn't actually make it a fact. It may be showing that you REALLY want to justify buying the #27 Quincey home red to your friends who pick on you for it, but doesn't make it a fact. He's been bad to average at best during his current stint here, and IMO (not a "fact!", just my opinion), it was a flushed 1st rd pick and he isn't worth his contract.

I think most of the fans here have favorite roster players and prospects, but ultimately would be ok in moving those pieces if it helped the team win. I'm glad that the prospect pool is deep right now, but there clearly isn't room for all or even most of those guys to succeed with the Wings. If Kenny has to package a few top prospects who are unproven at the NHL level to acquire a younger, established NHL d-man or scorer, I'd sign off. Most fans recognize that you have to give to get.

Quote:
Same with Ericsson, people FLIPPED at Big Rigs contract, now it is a bargain. He's been good. Those same people won't come forward admit they were wrong. They are ALWAYS wrong, yet they keep yapping like they know what they are talking about. It is free entertainment, I guess.

Oh and don't compare Kronwalls stats to Quinceys, because that doesn't count. Yet these same people use stats to backup the argument in their favor.
Ericsson was not worth the deal he got at the time of the signing- he'd done nothing to warrant that kind of jump in pay. IMO, he played under that level for most of last season, he's improved to playing well this year, so if he has a really good year next year, he'll have earned it in my book. I'm glad that he's improving and has been our best d-man so far this year, but that doesn't mean the contract wasn't overly generous at the time it was signed.

You seem to think that nobody here is being critical of Kronwall for some reason. You should do a forum search by "Kronwall" and you'd find that most of the posts so far this season are very critical of him, and rightfully so- he's been bad. But Q's diminishing IT would seem to indicate that the coaching staff isn't enthused with his play either. And it's not like he's being overlooked in favor of perennial All Stars either.


Last edited by Brick Top: 02-14-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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02-14-2013, 05:33 PM
  #714
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Seriously guys the ignore feature is your friend. I'm getting kinda tired of having to filter through all the BS arguments and debates with guys like HTT3 and Jman, it's infecting almost every thread here.

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02-14-2013, 05:33 PM
  #715
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Watching people praise Ericsson, you realize just how much our defense has slipped.

Don't completely suck and people say you're "playing great."

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02-14-2013, 05:48 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Watching people praise Ericsson, you realize just how much our defense has slipped.

Don't completely suck and people say you're "playing great."
I think he has improved, but he is still nothing special. Him being the Wings best d-man is awful.

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02-14-2013, 05:56 PM
  #717
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Watching people praise Ericsson, you realize just how much our defense has slipped.

Don't completely suck and people say you're "playing great."
Man, you are hazing E like he's the rookie on your team and you're the grizzled vet. He's playing at a higher level than "don't completely suck." He's no Norris candidate, and he's not playing as well as Stuart did in his best years with the Wings, but he's been playing well IMO.

Playing the best on this ****storm of a D-unit doesn't automatically mean he's a lackluster guy on the ice. I think he's playing up to his contract this season, and given how bad he was a for a while for us, I'm not complaining about it.

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02-14-2013, 05:58 PM
  #718
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I'm pretty much done with Kindl and Quincey. I pointed out in another thread his EVS TOI has been steadily decreasing every year since 2009-10. He's not a top 4 d-man and no bottom pairing/7th d-man is worth close to $4 million per year.

Kindl's been with the organization for like 8-9 years and in all that time he's strung together 4 solid periods of hockey when we've been hit with a ridiculous amount of injuries that actually allowed him to see the ice. This could be his Ville Leino moment where he is given his shot and shows he doesn't belong. Who knows, he could do better with a fresh start and get someone to overpay for him like Buffalo did for Leino, I just don't see enough to warrant him being anything more than a 6/7th d-man.

I like what little I've seen from Lashoff. Compare his EVS TOI this season with Brad Stuart's in San Jose.

EVS TOI
Stuart: 15 mins
Lashoff: 14 mins

Corsi relative to Quality of Comp
Stuart: 1.189
Lashoff: 1.221

Corsi QoC
Stuart: -3.875
Lashoff: -3.227

4v5 TOI
Stuart: 2.8 mins
Lashoff: 3 mins

Corsi relative to Quality of Comp
Stuart: 0.253
Lashoff: 11.301

Corsi QoC
Stuart: 93.052
Lashoff: 87.536

Your expecting good defensive play and big PK minutes from each guy and that's exactly what you're getting. Sorry if that hurts some feelings, this is obviously covering a small data set but that's because Lashoff is a 22 year old getting his first NHL action.

I'm going to take a look strictly at EVS for Kronwall this year vs. last year and see what the numbers show. My guess is he's looking much worse.

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02-14-2013, 06:31 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Then Coach Babcock must have a different definition of "lately" than you do. His must entail a couple of years rather than an arbitrary handful of games.
Arbitrary handful of games? He's been bad for a year and a half. Sometimes you have to look at things like a business, and subjectively judge people based on their current performance level. Can't just be buddies with everyone who used to get the job done for you all the time.

and we're talking about Dan Cleary here. Not someone who used to be an elite player like Todd Bertuzzi or Chris Chelios. You talk about Dan Cleary like he was way better than he was.

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02-14-2013, 06:33 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Easy on the name calling, bud- we prefer "logical fans accustomed to success" and "providers of objective criticism when warranted" to spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just an FYI
You call it name calling, I call it an accurate description of a certain chunk of people here. This success you speak of is an absurd standard to be held, even for the Wings. You aren't providing objective criticism "when warranted." You see something that you perceive to be wrong, and then bark about it all day long like annoying little dogs. You don't even perceive that you could be wrong, or basing your opinions on faulty logic. You have to have it your way, and you'll spend all day complaining about it, flooding every thread with "CLEARY TEH SUKZORZ" "HE'S DISGRACE" "BUY HIM OUT" "HE'S USELESS." Based on a handful of games? That's not objective.

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Why are you playing the career stats game with Cleary anyway? Nobody is denying that he was an asset to the team years ago,
So his statistics and contributions mean nothing to you? All that matters is a handful of games. I'm bringing up his statistics, not to shield him from criticism, but to garner him more respect than the incessant "BUY HIM OUT THAT USELESS TRASH SCUM HE IS." every other post. Unlike you, I don't see him as an asset to be discarded and forgotten once he becomes useless. I see him as a human being who did his job. He sucks at it now, but that was only recently. He was darn good at his job since he donned the Winged Wheel back in 2006. Now, not so much. That doesn't mean he deserves the savaging he gets on this thread.



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I'm sure Cleary would be flattered that you're putting his career achievements and value to the team on the same level with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but even he would tell you to drinking that much whiskey on top of your Nyquil has impaired your judgment to a very large extent.
Your logic is nothing more than subjective and arbitrary standards. In other words, trash. So a solid PPEOG player can be discarded, forgotten, and regarded as scum and trash incessantly for a small stretch of bad games, but a superstar is exempt from the same incessant slamming if he did the same thing? BS. If you have a standard of who to respect, apply to everyone within the context.



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Babs is a great coach, but I don't see why he should be immune to criticism
It shouldn't exempt him from criticism. It should protect him from constant "BABCOCK SUKZ" and other less than flattering second guessing posts that are constantly popping up.
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for rolling Cleary on the top line and PP so much when he is killing the team.
A point back from home ice advantage is hardly being killed by the efforts of a single man.
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He has other options and he's choosing his boy Danny.
Because Mike Babcock has more respect for Danny Cleary than you do. Danny Cleary sucking isn't some longstanding fact that's been known for years. It was supposed he would be fine and ready to contribute at a higher level after his knees were repaired. Mike Babcock isn't going to pull the plug after 13 games.

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Yes, the coaches and players get paid to do their jobs, but a paycheck shouldn't shield someone from criticism.
I bring up paycheck, because if they're earning a paycheck, than certainly there skills and knowledge of the game of hockey are much more valued than yours and ours. It shouldn't protect them from criticism. It should garner them some respect, though, as someone thought they deserved to earn money for the job. Their accomplishments should also shield them from incessant second guessing where every single thing perceived to be a bad move is put under the microscope.



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Every fan has their own line that separates what they deem to be legit criticism from over-the-top criticism. It's pretty obvious that your line happens to be in the vicinity of "virtually any criticism leveled against Wings players, coaches or management is ridiculous and unwarranted b/c of past accomplishments and the fact that they get paid." Seems accurate, right?
If that's your assessment, then your reading comprehension skills are laughable at best. If you can't properly piece together my opinion on the subject matter, then I can't take what you say seriously.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:02 PM
  #721
Brick Top
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
...
Look, you probably developed a case of carpal tunnel syndrome typing your response, but never came out and said that Cleary's play this season warrants the IT he gets, the line he's on, or that he actually helps the team. You do acknowledge that he "sucks at his job," which he's done for all of last season and into this year. You're not providing compelling reasons to keep him in his current spot in the lineup. Do you think Cleary is the best option for the top 6 and PP mins he's getting?

The Wings are doing okay so far, but that doesn't mean the team couldn't be better. Getting Cleary the hell out of the top 6 would be a good step in that direction.

The paycheck argument is laughable, too- Sather thought Scott Gomez was worth his crazy contract but we all realized pretty quickly that wasn't the case.

And piecing together your opinion is pretty simple... it's trying to gauge the amount of malted hops and bong resin that you had to sift through in your head to arrive at that opinion is the truly fascinating part

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:18 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
No. Welcome to you being unable to do critical thinking.
Critical thinking is useless when those people are uneducated, biased, and consumed with blind hate without reason. Hitler was a critical thinker.

Even with hind sight being 20/20 there are very few mistakes Holland made, everything has been methodical and spot on perfect. That's using basic hindsight.

Q has been one of Detroit's best defenseman. I would hate to imagine what this team would look like without him.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:20 PM
  #723
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Critical thinking is useless when those people are uneducated, biased, and consumed with blind hate without reason. Hitler was a critical thinker.

Even with hind sight being 20/20 there are very few mistakes Holland made, everything has been methodical and spot on perfect. That's using basic hindsight.

Q has been one of Detroit's best defenseman. I would hate to imagine what this team would look like without him.
Woot! It isn't a true flame war on the internet until the Adolf Hitler card gets played.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:20 PM
  #724
JmanWingsFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
You never came out and said that Cleary's play this season warrants the IT he gets, the line he's on, or that he actually helps the team. You do acknowledge that he "sucks at his job," which he's done for all of last season and into this year. You're not providing compelling reasons to keep him in his current spot in the lineup. Do you think Cleary is the best option for the top 6 and PP mins he's getting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I am a fan of Danny Cleary. It's a shame his play has dropped off the face of the earth, but it's unacceptable. I can't sing his praises enough for what he's provided to this team, but it's time to move on.
I have acknowledged that his play does not warrant him his spot on the roster. I don't go about savaging him for his brutal play every opportunity. I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest, but it looks like you're trying to fabricate something here that you can disagree with. Sadly it's non-existent and makes you look silly.



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The Wings are doing okay so far, but that doesn't mean the team couldn't be better. Getting Cleary the hell out of the top 6 would be a good step in that direction.
When Cleary wasn't in the top 6, the teams was still performing at the same level.

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The paycheck argument is laughable, too- Sather thought Scott Gomez was worth his crazy contract but we all realized pretty quickly that wasn't the case.
This is misleading vividness. I can not consider this an intelligent response at all. One case matter out of 1,000 doesn't disprove my point.

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And piecing together your opinion is pretty simple... it's trying to gauge the amount of malted hops and bong resin that you had to sift through in your head to arrive at that opinion is the truly fascinating part
So you call me out for what you percieve as name calling, and then go right around to using insulting language because you couldn't rap your head around my opinion on the matter. There's a name reserved for your sort. It's called a hypocrite. They are disgusting creatures who aren't taken seriously because they attack you with a certain standard and hold themselves to a different one, often exempting themselves from such a standard. I'm through talking with you.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:23 PM
  #725
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So if you agree his play doesn't warrant a roster spot what are you complaining about?

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