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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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Old
04-07-2013, 03:49 PM
  #176
newfy
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Originally Posted by tfong View Post
To quote people on the healthy stay, how do you PREVENT CANCER????
Well I question if you saw him if you bring that up as his only health issue (you can prevent cancer if you dont hack darts all the time though).

He was sitting out games of back to backs sometimes because his back was bad. You know why his back was bad? He wasnt committed to keeping himself in great shape at all and it made him miss games for his team. People try giving him credit for those games lost but its partially his fault.

And then everyone brings up the fact that hes 6'4 and it made him better than Wayne somehow, but that didnt help his health either when you combine it with no being committed to training.

Hes overrated if you say hes better than Gretzky, Orr and Howe to me. I know some people will argue about Howe but he was just as dominant offensively, tougher and better defensively while having the best longevity of all time.

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04-07-2013, 05:28 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Stars23* View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011



If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_yearly.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_season.html

Also All his His International stats are average (except for the 87' playing with Gretzky and the ref's)

Discuss

DROPS MIKE
I can tell you never watched Mario in his prime before his back injuries. Mario was simply the best player to ever lace up a pair of skates. Mario did not have the best career stats due to injuries and bad luck but as far as talent he had no equal. I am old enough to have watched all of Mario's games and have been watching hockey since the early 80's. I am a Pens season ticket holder and lets just say old enough to have watched all 6 Steelers Super Bowls.

I think the only player in 66's class was 99 who had the best career which the #'s don't lie. The differance is while the Great One came into the league with the best offensive team in the history of the game Mario came into the league on one of the worst. A healthy Mario in his prime had no equal and unfortunately by the time the Pens did put great players on his line and had great overall teams Mario had the back injury that plagued the rest of his career.

When Mario (22) was just reaching his prime he had already taken over Gretzky (27) as the best player in the world even though Gretzky was in his prime. Mario was clearly the better player from that year on. Mario never put up as good of season stat wise as some of Gretzky's best seasons but that was because by the time Mario had a team close to equal of those Oiler teams Mario had that severe back injury which was so bad he could not even lace his own skates.

I still believe the 76 game 85 goals and 199 point season Mario put up in the 88-89 season is the best season of any player. Mario put up those #'s while his best linemate was a career minor league player in his prime years (Rob Brown IHL player by 26). Mario made this future career minor league player look like an all star. What would a healthy Mario put up if he was on those best offensive Oiler teams of the early to mid 80's? You can bet it would of been much more than 85 goals and 199 points that is for sure.

Also when the Pens won the Cups even though Mario was a shell of his healthy self he was still the best player in the game by a large margin. During those seasons Mario could not lace his own skates but could still outplay everyone in the NHL. The 92-93 season Mario led the league by a large margin before he had to miss 20 games for chemo and he still came back and won the scoring title even with the damaging affects of chemo on his body 60 games 160 points.

Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game. Gretzky had the best career and that about sums it up. To say Mario was overrated proves you either never saw him in the late 80's or you are some biased ignorant person that likes to stir up trouble.

Honestly I have watched a lot of hockey since the 80's and I will just comment on the other Pens greats so not to stir up any trouble with other teams great players. Crosby, Malkin, and Jagr are not in Mario's same league. They are all hall of fame type players but can't come close to how good Mario was pre back injury late 80's.

Show me any stats you want it won't change my mind I saw all the great hockey players since the early 80's and no one player could dominate a game like Mario did. When healthy in his prime he could average a goal a game and 2.5+ points a game even with sub par line mates. All you haters can keeps posting but it really just makes you look like the fool.

As far as saying the injuries where Mario's fault also shows how little most posters know about Mario. Mario came into the league as not a hard worker but after playing with Gretzky in the Canada Cup in 87-88 Mario changed. Mario said he saw how hard Gretzky worked and he started working out much harder and taking care of his body which elevated him to that 199 point season. Mario's injury was from the garage league the NHL was back then when players were allowed to jump on a guys back and not get called. The ref's never protected Mario like they did Gretzky. I honestly don't care to get in a fight on who was better between the two but to say Mario was overrated is laughable.


Last edited by CrosbyMalkin: 04-07-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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04-07-2013, 05:34 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
And Gretzky didn't? You obviously never watched Gretzky play for the Oilers. Gretzky scored 17 goals and 47 points in only 18 games in the 1985 Stanley Cup playoffs. He finished with a record +28 in those 18 games. No one -- not even Lemieux -- EVER dominated any playoffs to that degree. In 1988, he made that same Raymond Bourque you mention look even more of a pre-schooler by scoring a RECORD 13 points in the Stanley Cup finals against the Bruins. He scored that record 13 points in only 4 games. His 4th Cup in 5 years. That's domination.
well, actually I did watch Gretzky play for the Oilers, but we'll let that slide...I told you already, I don't care about the stats, no one dominated the sport with all the tools like Lemieux did....

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04-07-2013, 05:36 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Well I question if you saw him if you bring that up as his only health issue (you can prevent cancer if you dont hack darts all the time though).

He was sitting out games of back to backs sometimes because his back was bad. You know why his back was bad? He wasnt committed to keeping himself in great shape at all and it made him miss games for his team. People try giving him credit for those games lost but its partially his fault.

And then everyone brings up the fact that hes 6'4 and it made him better than Wayne somehow, but that didnt help his health either when you combine it with no being committed to training.

Hes overrated if you say hes better than Gretzky, Orr and Howe to me. I know some people will argue about Howe but he was just as dominant offensively, tougher and better defensively while having the best longevity of all time.
in all fairness, no one took conditioning serious back in those days....but I will agree that had he done so, his back problems wouldn't have been so severe....

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04-07-2013, 05:42 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
And Gretzky didn't? You obviously never watched Gretzky play for the Oilers. Gretzky scored 17 goals and 47 points in only 18 games in the 1985 Stanley Cup playoffs. He finished with a record +28 in those 18 games. No one -- not even Lemieux -- EVER dominated any playoffs to that degree. In 1988, he made that same Raymond Bourque you mention look even more of a pre-schooler by scoring a RECORD 13 points in the Stanley Cup finals against the Bruins. He scored that record 13 points in only 4 games. His 4th Cup in 5 years. That's domination.
I would never argue Gretzky is not a great player but I just believe Mario was better. Gretzky did all that on great teams playing with hall of fame line mates and the best offensive surrounding cast of all time. Mario proved he could put up 85 goals and 199 points with a career minor league player as his best linemate and a slightly below average surrounding cast. Mario was the most talented player ever and Gretzky had the best career those are the facts. Gretzky could never of scored 85 goals and 199 points with that 88-89 Pens team with those linemates at any time in his career. Gretzky could never of won the scoring title with missing 20 games due to chemo in the middle of the season and having a back injury that was so bad he could not even lace up his own skates. Gretzky never put up those gawdy #'s once he had lost his hall of fame team. Gretzky had the best career but Mario was the best player to ever lace up the skates and I don't care what #'s you would like to put up.

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04-07-2013, 06:16 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by CrosbyMalkin View Post
I would never argue Gretzky is not a great player but I just believe Mario was better. Gretzky did all that on great teams playing with hall of fame line mates and the best offensive surrounding cast of all time. Mario proved he could put up 85 goals and 199 points with a career minor league player as his best linemate and a slightly below average surrounding cast. Mario was the most talented player ever and Gretzky had the best career those are the facts. Gretzky could never of scored 85 goals and 199 points with that 88-89 Pens team with those linemates at any time in his career. Gretzky could never of won the scoring title with missing 20 games due to chemo in the middle of the season and having a back injury that was so bad he could not even lace up his own skates. Gretzky never put up those gawdy #'s once he had lost his hall of fame team. Gretzky had the best career but Mario was the best player to ever lace up the skates and I don't care what #'s you would like to put up.

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04-07-2013, 06:45 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I saw his whole career.

He was under rated by most who tried to comment on him. Chiefly because they couldnt really describe the guy. Some nights he make his opponents AND his own team mates look like imbeciles .

The only time mario Lemiuex is over rated is when guys then sweat to spin his achievements into being better than Wayne Gretzky.

The spin is heavy and after a while looks silly. He never broke any of Gretzky's records but came close on a few of them.

The spin starts to include .......'most percentage of points of his entire team' blah blah .

How about goals, assists, points, cups hart trophies scoring titles longevitiy. Things that matter. Lemiuex never broke any of his records.

His only legitimate record he has that gretzky never did was scoring 5 different ways one game. That is truly remarkable.

So if you take away Gretzky , then you cant over rate Lemiuex. He was truly the second greatest player of his generation and one of the top 4 players ever to play the game.
I agree with this, Gretz pretty well has to be considered the best ever, BUT I enjoyed watching Super Mario much more, which does count for something. I watched the Habs of the '70's (Lafleur,Shutt,Lemaire with Robinson-Savard or Pointu the best 5 ever), the '80's Oilers and Islanders - Oils a greater team than the Pens were later, but Mario was the player I most enjoyed watching (prejudiced a bit against Orr since he was a Bruins - Ha)

Adams Division Rules

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04-07-2013, 06:55 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by dzd ncnfzd View Post
I agree with this, Gretz pretty well has to be considered the best ever, BUT I enjoyed watching Super Mario much more, which does count for something. I watched the Habs of the '70's (Lafleur,Shutt,Lemaire with Robinson-Savard or Pointu the best 5 ever), the '80's Oilers and Islanders - Oils a greater team than the Pens were later, but Mario was the player I most enjoyed watching (prejudiced a bit against Orr since he was a Bruins - Ha)

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Pure fantasy matchup putting the 90s Pens against the 80s Oilers. I think Edmonton would have taken it, but it would have been an epic series....probably would have gone 7 & then in OT...

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04-07-2013, 08:20 PM
  #184
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I was going to bring up the 88 finals too Gretzky set a record for most points in a cup finals, and it was in 4 games (and part of a 5th due to blackout). The fact is, Gretzky dominated much more than Lemieux did. Maybe Mario could have hit that same level if he'd stayed healthy, but his best healthy stretches are still behind Wayne's best stretches.
Yes, the fact is 1988 and 1992 were only 4 years apart. The game didn't change much in those 4 years, if at all. Yet Gretzky "schooled" Ray Bourque and those Bruins to a far greater degree than Lemieux did, pure and simple -- and he did it in the Cup finals no less! Lemieux had 8 points in 4 games against Boston in 1992. Of course, 2 PPG is really good by (almost) any standard, but it's not what I call "Gretzky good" -- which of course is what Gretzky did in his 4 games -- scoring a record 13 points in his 4 games against that same team (most would argue a better Bruins team) when the stakes were even higher (the Cup finals).

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04-07-2013, 08:25 PM
  #185
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I can't believe people still dismiss Gretzky because he played on the Oilers.

His first few years Messier, Coffey, and Kurri were nothing special or didn't play on the team. Hell, even when he played on the same team as Lemieux he still looked better.

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04-07-2013, 08:27 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by CrosbyMalkin View Post
Mario was the most talented player ever and Gretzky had the best career those are the facts. Gretzky could never of scored 85 goals and 199 points with that 88-89 Pens team with those linemates at any time in his career. Gretzky could never of won the scoring title with missing 20 games due to chemo in the middle of the season and having a back injury that was so bad he could not even lace up his own skates. Gretzky never put up those gawdy #'s once he had lost his hall of fame team. Gretzky had the best career but Mario was the best player to ever lace up the skates and I don't care what #'s you would like to put up.
See heres why Lemieux is overrated to a tee. How the hell can you call those facts? Gretzky never had to play with a back that bad because he was in better shape than that. Youre giving Mario credit for **** he couldve avoided. Instead thats used as some argument agaisnt Gretzky that he couldnt have done those things. How the hell can you honestly say its a fact Gretzky couldnt do it? Gretzky didnt have to do it because he was doing better things, like killing Mario in the Hart, killing his numbers and winning more cups.

Gretzky didnt put up those numbers after Edmonton because he was in his prime in Edmonton, but he still put up huge numbers. But lets not pretend Lemieux didnt have help, he played on some seriously stacked teams as well.

Posts like yours kinda prove why this thread was made. But I wouldnt really expect someone named CrosbyMalkin to be completely unbiased here

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04-07-2013, 08:37 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by CrosbyMalkin View Post
I would never argue Gretzky is not a great player but I just believe Mario was better. Gretzky did all that on great teams playing with hall of fame line mates and the best offensive surrounding cast of all time.
Gretzky scored a similar number of points in the early 1980s and put a lot of space between himself and those Hall of Fame linemates.

In 1989 Lemieux scored 199 points and beat Rob Brown by an impressive 84 points.
In 1983 Gretzky scored 196 points and beat 2nd place by 90 points. (That's not his best margin over teammates, but was the closest raw total to 199.)

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Mario proved he could put up 85 goals and 199 points with a career minor league player as his best linemate and a slightly below average surrounding cast.
Mario proved he could put up huge numbers when given a high number of powerplays. Say what you will about supporting casts, but when you've got 5 guys and the other guys have 4, you're in good shape.

Picking up 79 PP points on a team with 491 PPO is quite good, but considering Gretzky put up 53 PP points on 295 PPO with the Oilers in 1986 I don't think it's unbeatable.

Mario never stood out as much as Wayne did at even strength. Gretzky would have routinely won scoring titles on his ES points alone. ES-only Lemieux's only top 10 would be in 1988-89 at a tie for 8th place with Jimmy Carson. Which is impressive, but nowhere near ES-only Gretzky.

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Gretzky could never of scored 85 goals and 199 points with that 88-89 Pens team with those linemates at any time in his career.
Gretzky's top teammates scored less in 1982 than Lemieux's did in 1989. His 92 goals is still more than 85 if you adjust for GPG.

I've said it before, but Lemieux received more PPO in two years (88 and 89) than Gretzky did in three (84-85-86). If you give a guy who's expected to outscore Lemieux anyways a ton more powerplays, he'd probably push 100.

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Gretzky could never of won the scoring title with missing 20 games due to chemo in the middle of the season and having a back injury that was so bad he could not even lace up his own skates.
In 1984 he could have been hit by lightning after 42 games and won a posthumous Art Ross.

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Gretzky never put up those gawdy #'s once he had lost his hall of fame team. Gretzky had the best career but Mario was the best player to ever lace up the skates and I don't care what #'s you would like to put up.
Gretzky in 1991 was probably the scoring equivalent of 1987 Gretzky (last Coffey year), and no one's putting Sandstrom and Granato in the HHOF, or should consider them superior to Lemieux's 1990's linemates in any given season.

It's the last year anyone put up 100 ES points, and even though it was a lower scoring year than 1988-89, Gretzky had more ES points that year than Mario Lemieux in any year of his life.

-In 5-on-5 (or 4-on-4) situations, no one was better than Wayne Gretzky. (Best ES scorer. Ever. AINEC. To the point where Pro-Lemieux guys will never acknowledge this or offer a counter-argument because their point implodes.)
-In 4-on-5 situations, no one was as dangerous. (23 SHP vs 31 PPGA in 1984)
-Given an equal number of 5-on-4 situations, even Mario Lemieux can't claim superiority.

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04-07-2013, 08:47 PM
  #188
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See heres why Lemieux is overrated to a tee. How the hell can you call those facts? Gretzky never had to play with a back that bad because he was in better shape than that. Youre giving Mario credit for **** he couldve avoided. Instead thats used as some argument agaisnt Gretzky that he couldnt have done those things. How the hell can you honestly say its a fact Gretzky couldnt do it? Gretzky didnt have to do it because he was doing better things, like killing Mario in the Hart, killing his numbers and winning more cups.

Gretzky didnt put up those numbers after Edmonton because he was in his prime in Edmonton, but he still put up huge numbers. But lets not pretend Lemieux didnt have help, he played on some seriously stacked teams as well.

Posts like yours kinda prove why this thread was made. But I wouldnt really expect someone named CrosbyMalkin to be completely unbiased here
Lemieux had a degenerative condition. Yes, he could have mitigated it, but the fact is, he still had it. Hell, he missed most of the 90-91 season due to a post operation infection. Lemieux played on some stacked teams, but for a majority of his career, those teams were pretty awful. Gretzky played on great teams a lot more.

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04-07-2013, 08:50 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by CrosbyMalkin View Post
I would never argue Gretzky is not a great player but I just believe Mario was better. Gretzky did all that on great teams playing with hall of fame line mates and the best offensive surrounding cast of all time. Mario proved he could put up 85 goals and 199 points with a career minor league player as his best linemate and a slightly below average surrounding cast. Mario was the most talented player ever and Gretzky had the best career those are the facts. Gretzky could never of scored 85 goals and 199 points with that 88-89 Pens team with those linemates at any time in his career. Gretzky could never of won the scoring title with missing 20 games due to chemo in the middle of the season and having a back injury that was so bad he could not even lace up his own skates. Gretzky never put up those gawdy #'s once he had lost his hall of fame team. Gretzky had the best career but Mario was the best player to ever lace up the skates and I don't care what #'s you would like to put up.
That simply isn't true. There were three players on that 1989 Penguins team that scored over 115 points, including this guy by the name of Paul Coffey (you know, the same guy that was around for every single 190+ point season in the history of the NHL). Now let's go back in time to a little season by the name of 1981-82. A teenage Paul Coffey scores 89 points that season. In fact, there are no 100 point scorers on Gretzky's line. The only one on the entire team (besides Gretzky) that scores over 100 points is another teenager called Glen Anderson. But he barely cracks it with 105. Then you have Gretzky with a ridiculous 212 points -- double anyone else on his team. His record 92 goals were more than anyone else on his team (besides Anderson) scored points. In fact, if you had taken every single one of those record 92 goals away from him, he still would have demolished his team in scoring with his 120 assists alone. Mario Lemieux never did anything like this in 1989. Lemieux didn't double his teammates in scoring. He didn't beat his teammates in scoring with his assists alone, let alone demolish them. He was one of three 115+ point scorers on his team.

As for Gretzky never winning a scoring title after missing 20 games....I think you are forgetting just about all his seasons in the 80s where he had the scoring tittle wrapped up by Christmas. You are also forgetting about a little season by the name of 1983-84 where he was injured after his 51 game point streak. He scored 153 points over those 51 consecutive games for exactly 3 PPG. Had he not returned from his injury, he still would have won the scoring title -- and that was almost 30 games before the season ended!

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04-07-2013, 08:55 PM
  #190
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well, actually I did watch Gretzky play for the Oilers, but we'll let that slide...I told you already, I don't care about the stats, no one dominated the sport with all the tools like Lemieux did....
Lemieux may have had the physical "tools", but Gretzky had the better "results". And besides, Gretzky proved that hockey sense is the biggest "tool" there is.

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04-07-2013, 10:20 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by CrosbyMalkin View Post
I still believe the 76 game 85 goals and 199 point season Mario put up in the 88-89 season is the best season of any player.
That wasn't even the best season put up by a player THAT SEASON.

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Mario put up those #'s while his best linemate was a career minor league player in his prime years (Rob Brown IHL player by 26). Mario made this future career minor league player look like an all star.
Rob Brown. 49-66-115 in 68. Over a full 80 games, that's 58-78-136.

Let's compare that to the 39-54-93 for Gerard Gallant and the 36-35-71 for Paul MacLean, which combined together to make 75-89-164. Those two, plus Steve Yzerman's 65-90-155 make a total of 140-179-319. Lemieux and Brown's "80-game projection" total up at 143-192-335. This doesn't include Dan Quinn. Nor does it factor in the differences between Pittsburgh's defense and Detroit's.

Don't complain about Lemieux's linemates in 1988-89; Yzerman had it far, FAR worse.

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Mario was the most talented player to ever play the game. Gretzky had the best career and that about sums it up. To say Mario was overrated proves you either never saw him in the late 80's or you are some biased ignorant person that likes to stir up trouble.
"Overrated" isn't the same as "not great". That's a mistake a lot of posters seem to make.

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04-08-2013, 05:02 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Rob Brown. 49-66-115 in 68. Over a full 80 games, that's 58-78-136.

Let's compare that to the 39-54-93 for Gerard Gallant and the 36-35-71 for Paul MacLean, which combined together to make 75-89-164. Those two, plus Steve Yzerman's 65-90-155 make a total of 140-179-319. Lemieux and Brown's "80-game projection" total up at 143-192-335. This doesn't include Dan Quinn. Nor does it factor in the differences between Pittsburgh's defense and Detroit's.

Don't complain about Lemieux's linemates in 1988-89; Yzerman had it far, FAR worse.
So what you're saying is that Rob brown at the NHL level was better than Gerard Gallant and Paul MacLean?

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04-08-2013, 05:34 PM
  #193
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That wasn't even the best season put up by a player THAT SEASON.
I know right, Gretzky's 88-89 season was better.

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04-08-2013, 05:38 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I can't believe people still dismiss Gretzky because he played on the Oilers.

His first few years Messier, Coffey, and Kurri were nothing special or didn't play on the team. Hell, even when he played on the same team as Lemieux he still looked better.
Do "people" do it or just Penguins/Lemieux fans?

Anyone who wants to play the "Lemieux > Gretzky because of the team Gretzky played on" card really needs to explain 1981-82:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/1982.html

Gretzky had more assists (120) than the second best point producer on his team had points (Glen Anderson with 105). Oh, and Gretzky also set the all-time record with 92 goals at the same time.

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04-08-2013, 05:49 PM
  #195
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Do "people" do it or just Penguins/Lemieux fans?

Anyone who wants to play the "Lemieux > Gretzky because of the team Gretzky played on" card really needs to explain 1981-82:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/EDM/1982.html

Gretzky had more assists (120) than the second best point producer on his team had points (Glen Anderson with 105). Oh, and Gretzky also set the all-time record with 92 goals at the same time.
I've seen Red Wings fans do it too.....And fans of the current era who look to downgrade Gretzky to make current players look better. It happens to just about every one of the Oiler's top players: Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr. I've even seen it done to players from the '70s Habs dynasty: "Lafleur would have been ordinary if he hadn't played for the '70s Habs" (To paraphrase the sentiment).

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04-08-2013, 05:52 PM
  #196
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I've seen Red Wings fans do it too.....And fans of the current era who look to downgrade Gretzky to make current players look better. It happens to just about every one of the Oiler's top players: Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr. I've even seen it done to players from the '70s Habs dynasty: "Lafleur would have been ordinary if he hadn't played for the '70s Habs" (To paraphrase the sentiment).
Well, I think there is good reason to question the accomplishments of Anderson and Fuhr, at least somewhat. But anyway, strange to see Red Wings fans doing it, as they are probably the biggest victims of the "all their players are overrated because they play with each other" nonsense in recent years.

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04-08-2013, 05:54 PM
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-In 5-on-5 (or 4-on-4) situations, no one was better than Wayne Gretzky. (Best ES scorer. Ever. AINEC. To the point where Pro-Lemieux guys will never acknowledge this or offer a counter-argument because their point implodes.)
-In 4-on-5 situations, no one was as dangerous. (23 SHP vs 31 PPGA in 1984)
-Given an equal number of 5-on-4 situations, even Mario Lemieux can't claim superiority.
Just to say, I mostly agree with this, but you have to admit that Mario is one of the biggest reasons the Penguins got more PPs than most other teams. He's probably the best ever at drawing penalties - the only way to stop him was to foul him, and he wasn't as good as avoiding contact as Gretzky, so teams fouled him a lot more often. So plays that would probably result in an even strength goal or assist for Gretzky probably resulted in a penalty drawn for Mario. And then Mario was at least as good as Gretzky on the PP.

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04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
  #198
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Well, I think there is good reason to question the accomplishments of Anderson and Fuhr, at least somewhat. But anyway, strange to see Red Wings fans doing it, as they are probably the biggest victims of the "all their players are overrated because they play with each other" nonsense in recent years.
Where Red Wings fans are concerned it IS a pot-kettle-black kind of thing. Hell, look at the stuff being posted in the Federov threads. If someone didn't know better they'd swear that rather than playing for the stacked Red Wings he spent his entire career playing with wingers from the 4th line of the '75 Caps.

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04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
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Probably.

Kind of comes with the territory of being awesome though.

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04-08-2013, 08:37 PM
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Just to say, I mostly agree with this, but you have to admit that Mario is one of the biggest reasons the Penguins got more PPs than most other teams. He's probably the best ever at drawing penalties - the only way to stop him was to foul him, and he wasn't as good as avoiding contact as Gretzky, so teams fouled him a lot more often. So plays that would probably result in an even strength goal or assist for Gretzky probably resulted in a penalty drawn for Mario. And then Mario was at least as good as Gretzky on the PP.
I see your point on PPO, but only half agree.

There were also just an unusually high number of penalties in Pens games, hence the high number of PPOA (482) and 15 Pens with 100 PIMS (including Mario!), and the Pens ability to keep getting high PPO numbers A) throughout the early 80s, B) when Mario was injured, and C) after Mario retired. The Pens aren't the only ones getting a ton of PPO in the early 80s. The Capitals do too...

It could partially be the Patrick Division was an environment where there was a high number of PPO. Kind of like how the Norris had a low number of wins.
There were 4 teams from the Patrick Division in the top 4 for PPO in 88-89.
There were 5 of the top 8 PPO teams in 1987-88, including spots 1, 2 and 3.
And 5 of the top 7 PPO teams in 1987.

The 5 pre-lockout seasons with the most PPO awarded in history, are 1988, 1993, 1996, 1989 and 1992.

Mario Lemieux just happened to play in a high PPO environment, in the exact seasons where PPO was highest. He was difficult to cover and did draw many penalties - but the Pens got a lot of PPO without him. The NHL awarded a ton of PPO whenever he hit his peak. Or perhaps vice versa.

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