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NCAA DI: 20 years from now

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Old
03-21-2005, 11:31 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patman
This is idealistic because there is nothing to show that any of those schools will take the risk on NCAA hockey.

Hockey will grow by schools looking for a niche and doing something different. Many programs will start as minimal cost situations but may grow from that situation, both of which will take time. Any team in the south and far west will have issues due to travel (see the St. Olaf thread) since they will be low regarded and will have to travel. Hockey's hard to move into because there is no good fit for conferences and opponents, Title IX is a big issue but I think eventually football will be exempted, and of course the general costs for rinks and 18 scholarships. I think expansion towards the south will be slow. Unless a Cali. school wants to take the CHA route its going to be a tough expansion. This is why the SEC/ACC won't be up and running any time soon... good luck getting established programs to schedule you on the road.

I think the realistic prospects will be one at a time little by little, I wouldn't be shocked to see some programs that still have hockey on the heart try to get back into it. There is still supposedly a soft place for hockey at St. Louis for instance. Other schools might pick up hockey in the recruiting beds. I have no reason to give any reasons but I wouldn't ever be shocked if more of the Northeast Conference or CAA members started to look more towards hockey... nobody is going to do it all at once to be sure. Its going to be a lot of non-typical schools that make the push. Because of that it makes me happy that schools like UMass-Lowell won't lose its place to the "established conferences" and the power they'll demand just because they are supposed to be important. Hockey is real fun because we don't have to deal with Duke, UNC, Maryland, Florida, FSU, Texas, WVU, Pitt, so on, so forth. As much as some people would like to see those schools I see it as a matter of grasping at some sort of hope of a national identity carryover effect. It would destroy College Hockey to be another proxy battle for the power conferences. Hockey doesn't need that, it needs to be its own identity.

Excellent post! Some excellent points made.

You mentioned travel...have you taken a look at the air miles that Anchorage and Fairbanks have piled up? They're further west than California. Even worse is, those schools don't even play in the same conference and the only time they get together is for the annual Governor's Cup matches (unless one day they happen to be meet for the national title).

As for the CHA, that conference is all over the darn map! Air Force is in Colorado Springs, yet they have to regularly travel to Niagara (NY), BSU (MN), WSU (MI), UAH (ALA) and RMU (PA) and if that isn't enough there's that annual meeting with Army where they travel to West Point every other year. I have heard rumbles though that AFA is trying to make a push to join the AHC, which would make sense with their annual match with Army.

I agree that College hockey needs to keep its onw identity but I do think that could that could still be maintained if the right schools (that is, the right fit for college hockey) are admitted. Having an SEC in hockey IMO just wouldn't work and if anything could kill the uniqueness of college hockey.

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03-22-2005, 02:21 PM
  #27
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I think a great thing to do would be to put programs in schools that are on the border of those great hockey areas and exploit their natural rivalries. A perfect example would be Maryland. If they get a great program together, you know Duke and UNC will want to try and one-up them again, and it could possibly set off something in the southeast.

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03-22-2005, 02:58 PM
  #28
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The MASSIVE improvement of the USHL has drastically improved the talent pool of NCAA hockey. Add to that the increases in numbers to the USA Hockey at the youth levels, and I can see NCAA D1 hockey continuing to garner strength as a viable, fan-friendly hockey experience. I do think that schools like Nebraska Omaha, UND, Saint Cloude and the like (NCAA D2 schools in all other sports) are the future of D1 hockey. For now, the northern schools will be the ones to make the jump to Division 1. The best place to find these schools is in D3 hockey. Many of these teams may be close to making the jump -- Iowa State, etc.

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03-22-2005, 03:09 PM
  #29
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I was doing some number crunching from another thread.

The state with the most registered players and no team is Illinois 24k, although Notre Dame is close by. Following them is California with 18k

The state with the highest per capita players and no team is Wyoming with 4.04 players per 1000 people. The thing is Wyo is the least populous state so that only works out to 2k and there is only one 4 year college in the state. However I do think that the Cowboys could ad hockey, they'd have Colorado across the border. Following Wyo, Montana, South Dakota and Idaho all have an above average ammount of players ber capita, but a small population.

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03-22-2005, 04:35 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
I was doing some number crunching from another thread.

The state with the most registered players and no team is Illinois 24k, although Notre Dame is close by. Following them is California with 18k

The state with the highest per capita players and no team is Wyoming with 4.04 players per 1000 people. The thing is Wyo is the least populous state so that only works out to 2k and there is only one 4 year college in the state. However I do think that the Cowboys could ad hockey, they'd have Colorado across the border. Following Wyo, Montana, South Dakota and Idaho all have an above average ammount of players ber capita, but a small population.
I could see SoDak and maybe Idaho but Wyoming and Montana???

How about D-IIIs making the jump to D-I? We all know (or at least those of us that have been keeping up) that RIT is the lastest to make the move, but who else would/could become potential candidates? Can anyone see schools such Manhattanville or UMass-Boston or even St. Olaf's making the jump at some point in the future? Also, can anyone see the Ivies D-1 being expanded to include Penn and Columbia?

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03-22-2005, 05:00 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers Chick
I could see SoDak and maybe Idaho but Wyoming and Montana???
North Dakota and Alaska are each smaller than all those states except Wyoming and they have solid programs. I don't think they all could do it, but some schools might pick up in there. U Wyo is right across the border from Colorado like Grand Forks and Minnesota. The Cowboys manage to draw real well for Basketball and football even though they are a midmajor.

Maybe the region's contribution will stay with being an NAHL hotbed. In terms of virgin territory the Rockies and the plain states look to be the best area to expand int, witness UNO.

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03-22-2005, 05:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers Chick
I could see SoDak and maybe Idaho but Wyoming and Montana???

How about D-IIIs making the jump to D-I? We all know (or at least those of us that have been keeping up) that RIT is the lastest to make the move, but who else would/could become potential candidates? Can anyone see schools such Manhattanville or UMass-Boston or even St. Olaf's making the jump at some point in the future? Also, can anyone see the Ivies D-1 being expanded to include Penn and Columbia?
For Manhattanville to make the jump, they would absolutely need new facilities. UMass-Boston would also need new facilities, and they are one of the worst teams in D-III right now. One team I could see making the Jump is St. Anselm (currently D-II). They just opened a new arena recently (it is nice, definitely capable of being a D-I facility) and they are becoming more competitive.

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03-22-2005, 08:06 PM
  #33
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Two bigger schools to keep an eye are are Illinois and Penn State. Both have powerful club teams and have indicated that there is some interest in a move to the DI level. Urbana-Champaign is getting a 12,000 seat USHL arena, so there's a natural place for a hypothetical team to play. Penn State is seeking a major donor for a facility. It may take a few years, but indications are that both schools will have programs in the nearish future.

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03-22-2005, 08:30 PM
  #34
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And on that note, this article has prompted much debate:


http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/spor...php?ntid=33006



Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkymoses
Two bigger schools to keep an eye are are Illinois and Penn State. Both have powerful club teams and have indicated that there is some interest in a move to the DI level. Urbana-Champaign is getting a 12,000 seat USHL arena, so there's a natural place for a hypothetical team to play. Penn State is seeking a major donor for a facility. It may take a few years, but indications are that both schools will have programs in the nearish future.

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03-23-2005, 01:33 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSBPC
For Manhattanville to make the jump, they would absolutely need new facilities. UMass-Boston would also need new facilities, and they are one of the worst teams in D-III right now. One team I could see making the Jump is St. Anselm (currently D-II). They just opened a new arena recently (it is nice, definitely capable of being a D-I facility) and they are becoming more competitive.
UMB could never hope for anything like that. To start with there are DIII state schools with far more tradition than UMass-Boston (Salem State, Westfield State, Fitchburg State). Next they are a school with zero on campus residences, not that its required, but it sure does help when you are considering non-scholarship students. After that you have lack of facilities unless you want to be subserviant to another insitution. After that you have the UMass system which almost balked at maintaining TWO DI programs and almost flushed UML down the drain for no other reason than it wasn't the big campus (of course, UML has 3 DII titles and 3 DI tournament appearences, but I guess that doesn't matter in a politics battle.)

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03-23-2005, 04:28 PM
  #36
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Patman:

The three schools I gave as example, don't necessarily have great programs but ones I used as examples only (maybe not the best examples, I suppose). If the UMass system is that much of a stickler about who can or cannot join the D-1 ranks for whatever reason, then perhaps they may never get considered anytime in the foreseeable future.

FYI, as I've previous stated, not all current D-1 schools have rinks right on campus. I cited the Hart Rec Center such an example. Now maybe that should be a criteria now for making the step up to join the D-1 ranks. Also, not all D-1 schools offer scholarships (and I'm not just referring to the Ivies or military academies here). Many in the AHC for example do not. Union College over in the ECACHL also do not.

stanleycaps: I read that yesterday. Frankly, I just can't see the CCHA and especially the WCHA buying into the idea. IMO, I think the WCHA people like how the conference looks right now. It's very competitive with a really nice balance.

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03-23-2005, 05:24 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers Chick
stanleycaps: I read that yesterday. Frankly, I just can't see the CCHA and especially the WCHA buying into the idea. IMO, I think the WCHA people like how the conference looks right now. It's very competitive with a really nice balance.
I lurked a bit on USCHO's boards and Big Ten Hockey is a big taboo there. If Minnesota left the WCHA it wouldn't have enough nonconference spots to play their in state rivals, same for the Wolverines and Spartans. But then again Michigan, Mich St, Mich Tech and Notre Dame all bolted from the WCHA.

Conference jumping can backfire, look at Miami in the Big East. I think Minnesota and Wisconsin realize that that's one of the charms of college hockey is being different than the other college sports.

Having Big Ten rivals for nonconference games might not be a bad idea.

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03-23-2005, 05:42 PM
  #38
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I can put in one school: University at Buffalo

Why they don't have a hockey program is one of the great mysteries of western NY.

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03-24-2005, 06:00 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eSabre
I can put in one school: University at Buffalo

Why they don't have a hockey program is one of the great mysteries of western NY.
If the choas at Canisius doesn't subside that may be a slam dunk

Does anyone know of a good site with university stats and demographics, preferably with athletic budgets?


Last edited by Hasbro: 03-24-2005 at 06:38 AM.
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03-25-2005, 10:57 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro
I lurked a bit on USCHO's boards and Big Ten Hockey is a big taboo there. If Minnesota left the WCHA it wouldn't have enough nonconference spots to play their in state rivals, same for the Wolverines and Spartans. But then again Michigan, Mich St, Mich Tech and Notre Dame all bolted from the WCHA.

Conference jumping can backfire, look at Miami in the Big East. I think Minnesota and Wisconsin realize that that's one of the charms of college hockey is being different than the other college sports.

Having Big Ten rivals for nonconference games might not be a bad idea.
It's good promotion. There's proof in the point that for some reason the Ohio State/Michigan rivalry is perpetuated into the Hockey matchup and is always the best games of the year for them. Ohio State is just now being able to stay atop the CCHA as a dominant force and feed that rivalry, whereas it had started, literally, with Big Ten Football and their own college rivalry within that.

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03-27-2005, 10:43 AM
  #41
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From the Sentinel, the official newspaper of the Kennesaw State University (suburbs of Atlanta)

SEC Hockey on the way..
Ice Owls busy in offseason
Team adds new coach and works on forming new conference
By Jenna Provow, Staff Writer
Published: Wednesday, March 23, 2005
Article Tools: Page 1 of 1

The KSU Ice Owls finished the season with a 16-6-1 record, the best in the team's three years existence. Three of the Ice Owls' wins truly stood out, as they defeated the University of Georgia [2004 ACHA National Finalists], Georgia Tech and Penn State, a top team in the northeast.

In its final game of the season, KSU came out strong and dominated the University of Georgia. As starting goalie Nathan Heffley protected the net, Ice Owl forwards Matt Kenck, assistant captain, Robert Farris and Ryan Jarrell managed to score and help KSU win 3-2.

Even though the team was busy with its competitive schedule this past season, it managed to make some key moves for next year including adding another coach to the team, Jared Marinich. Marinich played for the Birmingham Bulls in the WHA and played D-1 ice hockey in Minnesota, making him a strong asset to KSU.

In addition to hiring Marinich, the Ice Owls plan on making a new home for themselves. With KSU leading the way, the groundwork has been laid for establishing a new SEC hockey conference. It would include the University of Georgia, Georgia Tech, the University of Tennessee, Vanderbilt University, the University of South Carolina, the University of Florida and Florida State University, as well as KSU.

"This will add another level of great competition and raise the visibility of our program to another level," said Bill Morrison, Director of Hockey Operations.

The Ice Owls plan on hosting the SEC Regional Championships next year.


Also there have been talks of building a $12 million ice facility on campus. So Hockey might come to the South slowly but surely !

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03-28-2005, 02:06 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchKheldar
Also there have been talks of building a $12 million ice facility on campus. So Hockey might come to the South slowly but surely !
And that is the one point that many people are missing in this whole debate. The cost of building an ice facitlity on the campuses of these universities.

All this talk about having hockey in the SEC will stop with the cost of building and upkeep of a facility for the program. This is a major investment by any university looking to start up a program.

The fact remains that the fanbase in the south (Texas being somewhat of an anomaly with the success of the Dallas Stars) for hockey is minimal at best.

Granted some schools (the University of Tennessee, for example) would draw major fans if they had a tiddly-winks team playing, but for most, hockey would still be a tough draw.

I do think college hockey has better markets to expand into than the south. The Pacific Northwest, northern states that border Canada (Montana, Idaho, etc.), and adding more schools in the the northeast. I think this is where any growth in DI hockey needs to start before we start thinking about adding more DI college hockey programs in the south.

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03-28-2005, 02:16 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenadyan
I do think college hockey has better markets to expand into than the south. The Pacific Northwest, northern states that border Canada (Montana, Idaho, etc.), and adding more schools in the the northeast. I think this is where any growth in DI hockey needs to start before we start thinking about adding more DI college hockey programs in the south.
Agreed. NCAA hockey is solid right now. They don't need to expand (and shouldn't following the NHL's example). IF hockey in the United States continues to grow in popularity (judging from the numbers of youth teams and leagues, it is), then it can do so at a pace that won't hinder the sport.

As I said earlier, the USHL (predominant feeder league to NCAA D1 hockey) is growing in both popularity and player talent. D3 schools in the northern portions of the US have the greatest opportunity for expansion into D1. It should happen gradually, however. The talent pool right now can sustain a modest expansion, but anything more than that is probably not needed.

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03-28-2005, 03:03 PM
  #44
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Another immediate step (along with making the CHA more stable) is CSTV and ESPNU getting on more cable/sat. systems and broadcasting regular season games.

One school that jumped out at (I was watching the Daily Show) Rutgers. You think they'd like to have a team that doesn't suck. How about Seton Hall?

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03-29-2005, 07:44 PM
  #45
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I guess the reason I don't see B10 hockey is Minnesota and Michigan are the most equal in their respective hockey conferences, but the Big 10 comes into play all the other members get as much say, the football and basketball overlap of power comes into play, the friction between schools inside the B10 playing hockey versus those that don't. In the WCHA and CCHA they can opperate thier hockey teams as its own entity short of NCAA interference.

Checking out INCH's States of the game Illinios (46) was the largest supplier of players without a team followed by California (27)

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03-30-2005, 01:10 AM
  #46
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Speaking of the SEC.....

I was just reading a great article on Tulane's hockey program (yes, they actually have a program belive it or not) and it's apparently going over quite well down in the Bayou. The fans down there, although small, are a fiercely loyal bunch according to the article. Maybe Tulane can be a part of the SEC???

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03-30-2005, 11:44 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilers Chick
The fans down there, although small, are a fiercely loyal bunch according to the article.
That sentence right there sums it up. "..although small..." I have no doubt about the loyalty of the group of fans who root for Tulane hockey, but I have used this same argument here in North Carolina.

The Carolina Hurricanes also have a hardcore group of loyal fans, just not enough of them to really justify having an NHL team (based on the revenues vs. costs of operating a team here). NASCAR, ACC basketball and ACC football (or SEC football, if you live in SEC country) are religon down here (much as hockey is in Canada or northern American cities like Detroit, Philadelphia, and Boston).

Until hockey can acheive the fanbase of say NASCAR, SEC football, or ACC basketball, hockey (and especially college hockey) in the south just isn't a profitable venture. Colleges and universities are not going to want to operate these programs if they can't at least break even.

This is not meant as a putdown of the south or to doubt the loyalty of the hardcore hockey fans in the south (I'm a northern transplant myself). It is just the reality of the situation.

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03-30-2005, 05:18 PM
  #48
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Well if another team in the deep south wanted to make a go of things they'd probably have an easier time of it in major city like NO than a hamlet. Being an airline hub it would probably be easier for teams to get there than hamlets like Bemidji or Houghton.

Still I have to give ****** knuckles to UAH.

I guess Air Force is not joining the AHA. I don't think travel would be that bad for them as they have a pretty big athletic budget and they are the AIr Force.

Another step copuld be making a Midwestern and Western answer to the AHA. It would eliminate the travel problems of the CHA. Say the rust belt conference with Canisius, Niagra, Mercyhurst, Robert Morris and Wayne State. Maybe they would have been able to keep Findlay. Or if some St.Norbert or Gustavus Aldofus types go D-1 they can form a conference with Air Force and Bemidji.

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04-03-2005, 01:04 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eSabre
I can put in one school: University at Buffalo

Why they don't have a hockey program is one of the great mysteries of western NY.
Maybe you mean a different school?, but what is this: http://www.uscho.com/m/?team=buffst

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04-03-2005, 11:49 AM
  #50
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I think this who Sabre was talking about

Part of the Frozen Four being in St.Louis maybe to kick start college hockey in Missouri (hello Lindenwood!)

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