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All-Encompassing Tortorella/Sather Thread

View Poll Results: A quarter of the way through the 2013 season, do you approve or disapprove of Torts?
Approve 168 50.45%
Disapprove 165 49.55%
Voters: 333. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:41 AM
  #976
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The biggest issue I have with Tortorella is he is just plain stubborn. He refuse to admit his system no longer works. The collapsing zone defense he likes to play just does not work for this THIS team. That worked last year because you had better overall quickness, defensive awareness, and shot blocking ability. You had Prust, Dubinsky, Fedotenko, Mitchell, and even Anisimov because they were molded by this type of system. Now you have Nash, Pyatt, Powe, Halpern, and Miller out there. They are horrendous at blocking shots. And that's ok. BUT it's only ok if they are not playing a collapsing zone defense because that means they are playing the point men tight. This way they don't have to block shots as much, they don't have to be as strong along the boards when our defensemen put the puck into space along the boards hoping the wingers will win the board battle. In fact it plays better to the hand of Nash and Gaborik because they are more likely to get breakaways on fumbled pucks by opposing defensemen. It happened against Pittsburgh where I think it was Despres or Letang who missed a puck and it went out towards the red line. It just seems as though Tortorella is not looking at tape correctly or looking at tape at all. He needs to change the way this team plays defense. They play loose on the points and what ends up happening is chaos in our own end. Constant running around trying to retrieve the puck. Last year's team you didn't notice chaos because even though the point men might have time, guys like Prust and Fedotenko were going to go down and block that shot. Now you have Powe and Halpern who barely go down if at all. Pyatt and Nash are too slow to get to the areas to go down let alone the idea that i wouldn't want Nash going down.

I still think Tortorella is a good coach. But he really needs to reevaluate himself here and then his team.

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Old
03-18-2013, 11:44 AM
  #977
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The failure to reevaluate and re assess and plan takes away a large chunk of quality.

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03-18-2013, 11:46 AM
  #978
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Brooks was spot on today.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...wd2ZPSBLMtuJiP

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03-18-2013, 11:53 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by FATCHAMALA11 View Post
Completely agree with the part about Kreider. Torts has mismanaged Kreider all year. I understood being careful last year when he was thrust into the middle of the playoffs. But this year, no excuses. He had Kreider walking on eggshells. The kid scored 6 in 8 games (and from my understanding that could've potentially been 7 in 8 games but a teammate got a piece of his shot before it went in the net).

And I don't want to see Gaborik go. I want to see this system open up towards offense more with Gaborik on the RW. Take more chances. Let Henrik put the team on his back. Because what's the difference at this point? He is already stopping odd man rushes and putting the team on his back in a "defensive system."

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03-18-2013, 11:56 AM
  #980
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this is great:

"A recall only makes sense if Kreider slots into an offensive role that includes power-play time. Everyone on this team has been allowed to fail ... everyone except Kreider, for the most part. But there are certain players — and this is going to raise the coach’s hackles, but Sean Avery is the best example of this — who just cannot earn Tortorella’s trust."

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:29 PM
  #981
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I remember when this poll was 70-30 *sigh* those were the days

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Old
03-18-2013, 12:50 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Completely agree with the part about Kreider. Torts has mismanaged Kreider all year. I understood being careful last year when he was thrust into the middle of the playoffs. But this year, no excuses. He had Kreider walking on eggshells. The kid scored 6 in 8 games (and from my understanding that could've potentially been 7 in 8 games but a teammate got a piece of his shot before it went in the net).

And I don't want to see Gaborik go. I want to see this system open up towards offense more with Gaborik on the RW. Take more chances. Let Henrik put the team on his back. Because what's the difference at this point? He is already stopping odd man rushes and putting the team on his back in a "defensive system."
Torts had nothing to do with Kreider's horrendous start in Connecticut. That's all on the kid.

As far as Gabs goes, I think the fans just need to take a chill pill and give him some time. I'm sure he's not 100% yet.

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03-18-2013, 01:15 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Torts had nothing to do with Kreider's horrendous start in Connecticut. That's all on the kid.

As far as Gabs goes, I think the fans just need to take a chill pill and give him some time. I'm sure he's not 100% yet.
My concerns about Gabby have absolutely nothing to do with his injury--being tentative is to be expected--and everything with the fact that Tortorella played Gabby out of position at LW. It is absolutely clear that Gabby much more comfortable and productive at RW. Hopefully, Tortorella will not try the LW experiment again.

As for Brooks' comments on Kreider I disagree. Tortorella has been very successful at integrating youth into the lineup and hasn't done anything wrong with Kreider. If anything, I think the shortened season--plus the injures to key players--has been the biggest problem. There's just not enough time to tolerate rookie mistakes and the tenative play over the course of the season and not have it affect the way a prospective is used.

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03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
My concerns about Gabby have absolutely nothing to do with his injury--being tentative is to be expected--and everything with the fact that Tortorella played Gabby out of position at LW. It is absolutely clear that Gabby much more comfortable and productive at RW. Hopefully, Tortorella will not try the LW experiment again.

As for Brooks' comments on Kreider I disagree. Tortorella has been very successful at integrating youth into the lineup and hasn't done anything wrong with Kreider. If anything, I think the shortened season--plus the injures to key players--has been the biggest problem. There's just not enough time to tolerate rookie mistakes and the tenative play over the course of the season and not have it affect the way a prospective is used.
I'm not crazy about Gabs playing the left wing either but when you have three right wingers that all deserve top 6 minutes, it's not an easy solution to solve.

Kreider was supposed to be an important part of the team but he didn't get it together during the lockout and it is what it is. I'm sure he'll be up before the playoffs start but it's clear that he needed a kick in the ass. The numbers he put up in the AHL were unacceptable coming from a guy that had a golden opportunity to play in a talented top 6.

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03-18-2013, 01:45 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Torts had nothing to do with Kreider's horrendous start in Connecticut. That's all on the kid.

As far as Gabs goes, I think the fans just need to take a chill pill and give him some time. I'm sure he's not 100% yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
My concerns about Gabby have absolutely nothing to do with his injury--being tentative is to be expected--and everything with the fact that Tortorella played Gabby out of position at LW. It is absolutely clear that Gabby much more comfortable and productive at RW. Hopefully, Tortorella will not try the LW experiment again.

As for Brooks' comments on Kreider I disagree. Tortorella has been very successful at integrating youth into the lineup and hasn't done anything wrong with Kreider. If anything, I think the shortened season--plus the injures to key players--has been the biggest problem. There's just not enough time to tolerate rookie mistakes and the tenative play over the course of the season and not have it affect the way a prospective is used.
Hasn't dont anything wrong with Kreider? The minute he would make a mistake he was nailed to the bench. Brooks made a great point comparing Kreider to Miller under Torts' watch. Miller has made mistakes yet he doesn't get benched or sent down. Miller has been just as nonexistent on the scoresheet. The biggest difference is Miller is a Torts kinda player and that is a defensive minded player who will chip in occasionally offensively. That is the teams biggest issue right now. Too much focus on the defensive side of the game and yet it still hasn't stopped teams from peppering lundqvist with shots and goals. Maybe, just maybe, you let Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider go out there and do their thing. Let those players neglect defense a little bit and focus more on breakout opportunities, goal scoring opportunities. This team collapses so much down low that by the time they go the other way and are in the offensive zone they've already lost the puck. They need to play to more of their strengths. Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider's strength is shooting the puck. But they can't shoot the puck without having time of possession in the offensive zone. Nash has been the only one who can carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone without dumping it. However, that does not always work for him. And part of it is, he's up there by himself with his forwards trailing behind him because they are still playing catch up from playing a collapsing defense. It's torts coaching that has limited Kreider. I am in complete agreement with developing a player's all around game, but let's not be naive and think Tort's did not have Kreider playing tentatively. In fact it was so apparent that Kreider was focusing more on positioning and how long his shifts were that his offensive talents were invisible.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Hasn't dont anything wrong with Kreider? The minute he would make a mistake he was nailed to the bench. Brooks made a great point comparing Kreider to Miller under Torts' watch. Miller has made mistakes yet he doesn't get benched or sent down. Miller has been just as nonexistent on the scoresheet. The biggest difference is Miller is a Torts kinda player and that is a defensive minded player who will chip in occasionally offensively. That is the teams biggest issue right now. Too much focus on the defensive side of the game and yet it still hasn't stopped teams from peppering lundqvist with shots and goals. Maybe, just maybe, you let Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider go out there and do their thing. Let those players neglect defense a little bit and focus more on breakout opportunities, goal scoring opportunities. This team collapses so much down low that by the time they go the other way and are in the offensive zone they've already lost the puck. They need to play to more of their strengths. Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider's strength is shooting the puck. But they can't shoot the puck without having time of possession in the offensive zone. Nash has been the only one who can carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone without dumping it. However, that does not always work for him. And part of it is, he's up there by himself with his forwards trailing behind him because they are still playing catch up from playing a collapsing defense. It's torts coaching that has limited Kreider. I am in complete agreement with developing a player's all around game, but let's not be naive and think Tort's did not have Kreider playing tentatively. In fact it was so apparent that Kreider was focusing more on positioning and how long his shifts were that his offensive talents were invisible.
Kreider played well offensively in the playoffs in Torts system. Played like crap in the AHL and then played like crap in the regular season.

Tortorella had nothing to do with Kreider's horrible start in the AHL. How can we expect a person who's not getting it done in the AHL to step into the top 6 for an NHL tream?

It's Kreider's fault for not being prepared. It doesn't have anything to do with Torts.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Hasn't dont anything wrong with Kreider? The minute he would make a mistake he was nailed to the bench. Brooks made a great point comparing Kreider to Miller under Torts' watch. Miller has made mistakes yet he doesn't get benched or sent down. Miller has been just as nonexistent on the scoresheet. The biggest difference is Miller is a Torts kinda player and that is a defensive minded player who will chip in occasionally offensively. That is the teams biggest issue right now. Too much focus on the defensive side of the game and yet it still hasn't stopped teams from peppering lundqvist with shots and goals. Maybe, just maybe, you let Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider go out there and do their thing. Let those players neglect defense a little bit and focus more on breakout opportunities, goal scoring opportunities. This team collapses so much down low that by the time they go the other way and are in the offensive zone they've already lost the puck. They need to play to more of their strengths. Gaborik, Nash, and Kreider's strength is shooting the puck. But they can't shoot the puck without having time of possession in the offensive zone. Nash has been the only one who can carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone without dumping it. However, that does not always work for him. And part of it is, he's up there by himself with his forwards trailing behind him because they are still playing catch up from playing a collapsing defense. It's torts coaching that has limited Kreider. I am in complete agreement with developing a player's all around game, but let's not be naive and think Tort's did not have Kreider playing tentatively. In fact it was so apparent that Kreider was focusing more on positioning and how long his shifts were that his offensive talents were invisible.
You bring up some solid points, but I cant put anything near all of the fault on Tortorella for whats happened to Kreider.

He played afraid up here - period. Whether is was afraid of making a mistake, afraid of taking another huge hit, whatever the case may be - he played scared.

If Kreider came out of the shoot and really made a difference on the forecheck/in the offensive zone, Im pretty sure he wouldve gotten a bit more leeway regarding the incomplete parts of his game.

To put this all in Torts and not give some of the blame to Kreider is pure scapegoating.

Miller, for all his inexperience and mistakes, still goes out there with a purpose and isnt afraid to try to make a difference. I, for one, am happy to coach is rewarding a player like that and didnt reward Kreider for his incredibly timid play.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:20 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You bring up some solid points, but I cant put anything near all of the fault on Tortorella for whats happened to Kreider.

He played afraid up here - period. Whether is was afraid of making a mistake, afraid of taking another huge hit, whatever the case may be - he played scared.

If Kreider came out of the shoot and really made a difference on the forecheck/in the offensive zone, Im pretty sure he wouldve gotten a bit more leeway regarding the incomplete parts of his game.

To put this all in Torts and not give some of the blame to Kreider is pure scapegoating.

Miller, for all his inexperience and mistakes, still goes out there with a purpose and isnt afraid to try to make a difference. I, for one, am happy to coach is rewarding a player like that and didnt reward Kreider for his incredibly timid play.
I agree Kreider did played scared. I think it was a combination of those things. I don't and won't put all the blame on Torts. But at the same time you have to remember he is 21 years old. All the goals he scored in the playoffs mean nothing. He needed to be given more leeway. I think at times he was playing at the very least average but yet his ice time would be reduced more and more as the game went on even though he wasn't making glaring mistakes. I mean you had the kid playing with Mashinter out there, you're not really setting him up for success.

I like Miller a lot. I was only agreeing with Brooks in how Torts handles Miller compared to Kreider. I do agree Miller goes out every shift and skates hard, takes the body as best as he can, and plays center and defense very well. But he has made some bad plays, specifically he'll hold onto the puck too long sometimes where he gets closed off on the boards, or makes a weak pass that isn't on the tape or doesn;t have enough on it....ends up being a turnover going the other way. But in the end kreider and miller are different players. You cannot expect Kreider, a more offensive player to be defensive, and miller, a more defensive player to be offensive. You need to let Kreider play and make mistakes. And at this point, being outscored 9-2 the last three games, could it really hurt?

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03-18-2013, 03:09 PM
  #989
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this is great:

"A recall only makes sense if Kreider slots into an offensive role that includes power-play time. Everyone on this team has been allowed to fail ... everyone except Kreider, for the most part. But there are certain players — and this is going to raise the coach’s hackles, but Sean Avery is the best example of this — who just cannot earn Tortorella’s trust."
I think the Brooks article is basically spot on, but I disagree with the bolded part. Boyle, Richards, Gaborik and others have paid for their failures with vastly reduced ice times.

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03-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #990
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I think the Brooks article is basically spot on, but I disagree with the bolded part. Boyle, Richards, Gaborik and others have paid for their failures with vastly reduced ice times.
true, but benching a little different than being scratched, demoted. I don't see what Miller is doing that is keeping him in the lineup over Krieder? Now that Krieder is scoring hopefully he gets called up?

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03-18-2013, 03:45 PM
  #991
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The team's lack of success is pretty simple... We aren't a deep team and we have had injuries that exposes that lack of depth.

If the guys get healthy, the team will win. The lack of Staal is a glaring hole right now.

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03-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #992
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Yep. Posted this in the call ups thread this morning.

Spot on by Brooksie today.

Free Kreider.

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03-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #993
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The only thing that's allowing Tortorella to remain as the coach is the fact that it's a shortened season. If this was going on in January of a full season, he'd be gone.

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03-18-2013, 03:55 PM
  #994
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If a guy like Lindy Ruff can be fired in a shortened season, I really don't understand why Torts can't be fired too.

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03-18-2013, 03:59 PM
  #995
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If a guy like Lindy Ruff can be fired in a shortened season, I really don't understand why Torts can't be fired too.
Tortorella took the Rangers to within one game of the Stanley Cup finals 27 games ago. The Sabres have not won a playoff series in six years.

There's your difference.

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03-18-2013, 04:00 PM
  #996
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If a guy like Lindy Ruff can be fired in a shortened season, I really don't understand why Torts can't be fired too.
Lindy Ruff has made the playoffs 2 out of 5 years, and they were first round exits. Last season John Tortorella's team lost the President's Trophy on the last day of the season and made the conference finals.

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03-18-2013, 04:03 PM
  #997
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Michel Therrien was fired half a season after getting his team to the Cup final.

Like I said, the shortened season is his saving grace.

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03-18-2013, 04:03 PM
  #998
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I'd say an injury riddled roster helps out a lot too.

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03-18-2013, 04:04 PM
  #999
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Tortorella took the Rangers to within one game of the Stanley Cup finals 27 games ago. The Sabres have not won a playoff series in six years.

There's your difference.
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Lindy Ruff has made the playoffs 2 out of 5 years, and they were first round exits. Last season John Tortorella's team lost the President's Trophy on the last day of the season and made the conference finals.
The 09 Pens fired their coach, and they went further with their coach in 08 than Torts did last year.

Either tell him to better fit his system to his roster, or can him.

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03-18-2013, 04:14 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by Grind Jam Grind View Post
The 09 Pens fired their coach, and they went further with their coach in 08 than Torts did last year.

Either tell him to better fit his system to his roster, or can him.
Therian was working with significantly more talent. Plus they brought in Bylsma to get them to play a more grind it out style which is what Torts preaches.

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