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We lost 106 points of offense and replaced it with L. Schenn

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:00 PM
  #1
Garbage Goal
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We lost 106 points of offense and replaced it with L. Schenn

How is that defended?

That's Carle (our best offensive d then), JVR (a top six winger), and what was our best or second best winger in Jagr. Mind you those numbers were with JVR only playing half of last season. So really we lost more then that point total. Only player of major note brought in is L. Schenn...a defensive d.

That's also without considering exchanging Bobrovsky for Boucher and Leighton. That also speaks for itself.

My point is that this is a poorly constructed team. Not likely to get an extremely good pick but questionable to even make the playoffs.

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02-14-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
How is that defended?

That's Carle (our best offensive d then), JVR (a top six winger), and what was our best or second best winger in Jagr. Mind you those numbers were with JVR only playing half of last season. So really we lost more then that point total. Only player of major note brought in is L. Schenn...a defensive d.

That's also without considering exchanging Bobrovsky for Boucher and Leighton. That also speaks for itself.

My point is that this is a poorly constructed team. Not likely to get an extremely good pick but questionable to even make the playoffs.
Holmgren swung for the fences and struck out badly.....he had no serious plan B to mitgate not landing any of the free agents. That was the problem....not so much going after the free agents although like Meltzer said Holmgren kind of miscalculated the Free agent market with respect to Parise and Suter. Holmgren as a result was stuck with stopgap scraps.

Knuble is a fine upstanding individual but his veteran presence is nothing like Jagr's. Carle has been replaced by Gervais and Foster. We need another scoring winger b/c of JVR's loss. Having said this I like Schenn but yeah it wasn't enough

Might as well post this here as well...I think it's a pretty good assessment..

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I do not blame the Flyers for trying to go all out to sign Zach Parise and/or Ryan Suter, nor do I blame them for ultimately declining to pay Matt Carle a cap hit of $5.5 million per season over six seasons. Where I do think the Flyers deserve to be second-guessed right now is in misreading the free agent market in the first place.


.....As it turned out, neither the Flyers nor the Penguins were on the short-list of teams that Parise and Suter considered before signing with Minnesota. Their agents simply used the competing offers from the Atlantic Division archrivals as leverage to extract as much as they could from the teams for whom their clients actually wanted to play.

In the meantime, while the Flyers and Penguins waited for three-plus days for Suter and Parise to announce their decision, the rest of the league picked apart most of an already thin unrestricted free agent crop until there was very little left.

Strictly as a hockey decision, trying to upgrade from Carle to Suter made sense. Suter is the better player. As a business decision, however, it was foolish. Given a choice of one contract or the other, it would have made more sense to commit early to Carle and overpay by even a million dollars for five years than to pay Suter like a franchise player for the next decade.

By waiting so long on the Suter longshot, the Flyers made it abundantly clear to Carle that re-signing him was not a top priority. So, in turn, any shot the Flyers may once have had at getting even a slight hometown discount in the end (such as Braydon Coburn provided when re-upping for four years rather than testing the market this summer and collecting an extra $500,000 to $750,000 per season) was gone.

....In the weeks leading up to the free agency period, Holmgren sounded so confident in a deal getting done with Carle -- even publicly saying twice that he thought it could get done at slightly below market value -- that it made one wonder why it hadn't been done during the season at the point when there was still tagging space available to make a deal.


Continue: http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=45436

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:06 PM
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We're fine. Next season when all the sophomore slumps are over, everybody will be taking about offensive depth again. But this time mixed with more reliable defense and goal-tending. Don't worry about 106 points of offense. It'll force this team to be more mindful of defense which will benefit them in the long run. And for the love of god will you people stop *****ing? We're almost close to .500.

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02-14-2013, 12:07 PM
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You saw our defense last year right? I agree we need offense but we needed Schenn too.

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02-14-2013, 12:12 PM
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Young kids stepping up is the easiest answer here. We have Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds who all are being relied upon for more offense. They Flyers are not the only team to do this, it's common in the NHL. You need younger players to fill the void of players that leave via free agency. Brayden Schenn is the best example. When he got off to a poor start everyone was blasting him, patience and 5 games later he is second on our team in scoring. He is also playing great hockey right now.

Also injuries..... Mez and Hartnell are both out of the lineup right now. We also have missed Briere and Simmonds for a little portion of the season. If it was a regular season, we would have been better off, but games are so close they missed a couple of games between them. Injuries are no excuse, but can be a reason why a team struggles. Especially with chemistry. I also believe Giroux is hurt, he is knocked off the puck way to easily, which almost neevr happened last year. His balance and skating aren't as strong as they were last year. I believe its something in his lower body..... maybe a hernia or something. He obviously can play through it, just not as effective.

I understand that the season is short, but Homer seems to not be willing to make a panic move. Also the other teams seem to not be willing to make moves either. Tough it out until we get back to full strength, and see where this team is. Of course if we make it to the playoffs, we have the most important aspect of a team playing where he needs to be, Bryzgalov. Your goalie needs to be the best player I feel in the playoffs, and Bryz has shown this year he is playing quality hockey.

I am a supporter of Homer but realize he has made his mistakes. I feel like a new capalogist would be a great move for the Flyers also. He has made some brilliant moves and not so brilliant moves. It can be said about every GM in the league.

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02-14-2013, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
You saw our defense last year right? I agree we need offense but we needed Schenn too.
Our need to keep a balanced offense outweighed any "need" for Schenn. When we traded for Schenn he was struggling just like JVR was. He was brought in to fill a spot and because he's Brayden's brother.

I have no problem with Luke and if you think I do you're missing the point. Point is this team was not well constructed. We lost a lot of winger depth and half our offensive d presence and didn't replace any of it.

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02-14-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Young kids stepping up is the easiest answer here. We have Schenn, Voracek, Couts, Simmonds who all are being relied upon for more offense. They Flyers are not the only team to do this, it's common in the NHL. You need younger players to fill the void of players that leave via free agency. Brayden Schenn is the best example. When he got off to a poor start everyone was blasting him, patience and 5 games later he is second on our team in scoring. He is also playing great hockey right now.

Also injuries..... Mez and Hartnell are both out of the lineup right now. We also have missed Briere and Simmonds for a little portion of the season. If it was a regular season, we would have been better off, but games are so close they missed a couple of games between them. Injuries are no excuse, but can be a reason why a team struggles. Especially with chemistry. I also believe Giroux is hurt, he is knocked off the puck way to easily, which almost neevr happened last year. His balance and skating aren't as strong as they were last year. I believe its something in his lower body..... maybe a hernia or something. He obviously can play through it, just not as effective.

I understand that the season is short, but Homer seems to not be willing to make a panic move. Also the other teams seem to not be willing to make moves either. Tough it out until we get back to full strength, and see where this team is. Of course if we make it to the playoffs, we have the most important aspect of a team playing where he needs to be, Bryzgalov. Your goalie needs to be the best player I feel in the playoffs, and Bryz has shown this year he is playing quality hockey.

I am a supporter of Homer but realize he has made his mistakes. I feel like a new capalogist would be a great move for the Flyers also. He has made some brilliant moves and not so brilliant moves. It can be said about every GM in the league.
Every team deals with injuries and ours aren't that bad. We lost a depth d and our top line LW for a bit. Not that bad if this team is constructed well. Look at Ottawa. They've lost Karlsson, Spezza, Cowen, and Michalek. Yet they're ahead of us. Torontos best player has been invisible all season yet they're in fifth.

I know he was relying on youngsters. In what way is it smart to expect Brayden and Couturier keep the offense going. They're both sophomores. Heck, Couturier is 19.

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02-14-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Every team deals with injuries and ours aren't that bad. We lost a depth d and our top line LW for a bit. Not that bad if this team is constructed well. Look at Ottawa. They've lost Karlsson, Spezza, Cowen, and Michalek. Yet they're ahead of us. Torontos best player has been invisible all season yet they're in fifth.

I know he was relying on youngsters. In what way is it smart to expect Brayden and Couturier keep the offense going. They're both sophomores. Heck, Couturier is 19.
1.Couturier is 20
2. Ottawa hasn't played 1 game without Karlsson yet, and Anderson is the main reason they are where they are right now
3. We are up against the cap as is, how can we fit 10 million $ for Carle and Jagr? Plus the cap is dropping next year

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02-14-2013, 12:25 PM
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They lost 116 points. Add up L. Schenn, Feds, Foster, Gervais, Knuble. Take that number (around 40 lost points now). Add growth out of second year players. Subtract overachievers from last year and bring them back down to their mean. Add a healthy Mez (in theory). Expect Bryz to bounce back and tighter defense (-10/15 goals against). Even without a big FA signing the loss doesn't look huge mathematically *depending on the factors you're considering*.

Lost points are a horrible way of looking at team though (I've done it, I'll admit). You had to lose Jagr because of his health. You lost Carle because of bad GMin (or good depending on the opinion) and JVR gave back a return for a glaring need (scratch Pronger and Carle and Mez's health).

That's the better way of looking at it.

You can't say: "I can't lose these points!" because those points come from players in situations (like Jagr's nagging groin). Bigger picture needed.

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02-14-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelos View Post
1.Couturier is 20
2. Ottawa hasn't played 1 game without Karlsson yet, and Anderson is the main reason they are where they are right now
3. We are up against the cap as is, how can we fit 10 million $ for Carle and Jagr? Plus the cap is dropping next year
This is a whole different issue on itself with the way our D is constructed. We cannot continue to routinely fill out our D with free agents due to the high salary they command in the open market.

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02-14-2013, 12:27 PM
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It would be entertaining to see the Flyers draft nothing but defensemen this draft. Even trade some of the less likely AHLers for mid to late picks just to grab a disgusting amount of defensemen. Carpet bomb it. One has to be a legit stud, right? RIGHT?!?

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02-14-2013, 12:27 PM
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This is a whole different issue on itself with the way our D is constructed. We cannot continue to routinely fill out our D with free agents due to the high salary they command in the open market.
We suck at drafting and developing d men unfortunately

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02-14-2013, 12:27 PM
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What exactly were you expecting?

There were very few options on the market and the ones worth the money obviously weren't coming to Philly. Did you want Homer to overpay for Parenteau? Likewise, would you have wanted Jagr and Carle taking up ten million on the cap? Obviously this team wasn't going anywhere with them.

Unfortunately we have to put up with the inconsistencies and growing pains of our young forwards.

At some point we are going to have to go out and get a PPQB/PMD but they don't grow on trees. Wouldn't be a horrible idea to kick the tires on Goligoski, IMO.

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02-14-2013, 12:28 PM
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Garbage Goal
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1.Couturier is 20
2. Ottawa hasn't played 1 game without Karlsson yet
3. We are up against the cap as is, how can we fit 10 million $ for Carle and Jagr?
1) my bad. Off by a year. Point still stands.

2) and Spezza? Or any of their other plethora of injuries? Spezza alone is as good as any player on our team except maybe Giroux. Just saying we don't have a right to complain. Not like Meszaros is Karlsson.

3) I'm not the GM. I am not responsible for figuring that out. Also, where did I say to re-sign any of them? All I said is that they weren't replaced. If Homer was willing to trade for Weber and willing to send out offer sheets then I'm sure between trades and free agency he could have cleared some space or replaced the players.

Point is this roster isn't built to win or lose. It's not acceptable. Being just out of the playoffs in the middle isn't the place to be. That's where teams like Calgary and Toronto get stuck.

Also I know nobody intends to lose but if you're relying on young sophomores to carry things then go for a full retool or rebuild. Go full young. I also think Homer wont sell at the deadline.

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02-14-2013, 12:32 PM
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They lost 116 points. Add up L. Schenn, Feds, Foster, Gervais, Knuble. Take that number (around 40 lost points now). Add growth out of second year players. Subtract overachievers from last year and bring them back down to their mean. Add a healthy Mez (in theory). Expect Bryz to bounce back and tighter defense (-10/15 goals against). Even without a big FA signing the loss doesn't look huge mathematically *depending on the factors you're considering*.

Lost points are a horrible way of looking at team though (I've done it, I'll admit). You had to lose Jagr because of his health. You lost Carle because of bad GMin (or good depending on the opinion) and JVR gave back a return for a glaring need (scratch Pronger and Carle and Mez's health).

That's the better way of looking at it.

You can't say: "I can't lose these points!" because those points come from players in situations (like Jagr's nagging groin). Bigger picture needed.
It's not purely about the points. The points are an illustration of how much we've lost and in what area.

As for your first paragraph, you counted a bunch of fringe players to make up for impact players, assumed perfect health, and assumed sophomore players could be counted on...you really think any of that is smart or realistic?

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02-14-2013, 12:46 PM
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Well, in this situation one hopes Luke Schenn (and an improved Bryzgalov) minimizes points against and counters that loss of offense. Unfortunately, neither of them can make up for a struggling Giroux, injured Hartnell, inconsistent Brayden, declining Briere, disappointing Coburn, or injured Mez.

I wasn't exactly a fan of the trade at the time. It was too similar to Montreal with LeClair, I thought we were giving up the higher upside. However, defense was a more glaring need than offense, even with the loss of Jagr. I'm still not sure how I feel about that trade itself, whether it was a mistake or not. What I do know is that the Flyers need to start developing their own defensemen.

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02-14-2013, 12:47 PM
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Anyway you look at it...we were going to have to deal with a transition year b/c of all of our youth and the loss of Pronger. Holmgren tried to shorten the timeframe for transition by trying to land Weber, Suter or Parise but was unsuccessful. In the meantime, he had to patch up holes with Gervais, Foster, Knuble and yes..Feds. Problem is that he didn't really fill the holes well or what would make the most impact. It would have been nice to grab a 4th line faceoff guy. We still need a backup goalie and luckily Bryz has been good and not injured otherwise we would definitely be a lottery team! I think Holmgren going with Leighton and Boosh as backups is almost criminally negligent and so far his game of high stakes poker in that regard is still playing out for him. The other need is obviously a skilled winger to pot some goals which he kicked the tires with Ryan apparently and even Nash but everybody prolly wanted Couts or Schenn or both. The final HUGE need is a puck moving D man with offensive impact on the PP like Pronger and who can also play 20+ mins. Good luck filling that hole...it can take up to a decade to finally get an impact franchise D man like that...

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02-14-2013, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Well, in this situation one hopes Luke Schenn (and an improved Bryzgalov) minimizes points against and counters that loss of offense. Unfortunately, neither of them can make up for a struggling Giroux, injured Hartnell, inconsistent Brayden, declining Briere, disappointing Coburn, or injured Mez.

I wasn't exactly a fan of the trade at the time. It was too similar to Montreal with LeClair, I thought we were giving up the higher upside. However, defense was a more glaring need than offense, even with the loss of Jagr. I'm still not sure how I feel about that trade itself, whether it was a mistake or not. What I do know is that the Flyers need to start developing their own defensemen.
One-dimensional, big bodied d+attacking system+reliance on sophomores=not smart.

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02-14-2013, 12:52 PM
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One-dimensional, big bodied d+attacking system+reliance on sophomores=not smart.
No. It is not.

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02-14-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
One-dimensional, big bodied d+attacking system+reliance on sophomores=not smart.
While I agree, I think Schenn has impressed us all with how much better than advertised he's been. He's made some mistakes but people tend to forget he's still only 23 years old. There's a lot of room to get better there and I think getting out of Toronto and the situation he was in will make him more comfortable to do so.

So I wouldn't say he's 1 dimensional. Maybe 1.5 dimensional. But you're right the equation is shaky.

I really think this team needs a new coach and system, but I really don't like any of our other options.

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02-14-2013, 01:07 PM
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So are we all in agreement that Homer took the team from 06-07 and has completely flushed it down the toilet since?

Because I'm hearing talk as if we never moved forward from that point.

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02-14-2013, 01:08 PM
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I blame Coburn's play on Gervais. Coburn essentially playing the roll of 2 d men

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02-14-2013, 01:18 PM
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So are we all in agreement that Homer took the team from 06-07 and has completely flushed it down the toilet since?

Because I'm hearing talk as if we never moved forward from that point.
Yep, totally flushed it down the toilet to a few Conference Finals/Stanley Cup appearance and a team that could come back from a 0-3 series deficit. The nerve of him...

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02-14-2013, 01:34 PM
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That's what happens when you have a young team and live in a salary cap era. You couldn't hide these young players anymore and for them to develop they needed to get an expanded role. Quite frankly its better to do that then to handcuff the team in the future with guys who aren't even worth the money they got in the open market. If these young forwards continue to developed then the flyers are set for the future. Now its time to start rebuilding the pipeline of prospects with defenseman.

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02-14-2013, 01:39 PM
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As for your first paragraph, you counted a bunch of fringe players to make up for impact players, assumed perfect health, and assumed sophomore players could be counted on...you really think any of that is smart or realistic?
No, I don't think any of that is smart or realistic. I don't think any of this approach is. That is what I was trying to lay out.

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