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Karlsson Injured Part III [YT#1] Lacerated Achilles, Surgery Required, Out Indef.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:19 AM
  #476
Richie10
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Originally Posted by TheGooooch View Post
The dirtiest player in NHL history? Hahahahaha, man this is getting ridiculous.
You're telling me. Sens fans need FEMA to start airlifting Prozac from the look of this thread.

Good teams will overcome. Look at the Pens without Crosby for virtually a year. Still competed. The Kings had to suffer through Kopitar snapping his ankle with a handful of games left in the 10/11 season, still made the playoffs, almost beat San Jose. You really get to know your team, what works and what doesn't, after your best player goes down for an extended period of time. This will only be good for the Senators in the long run.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:21 AM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I'm having a hard time understanding why the skate has to be raised at all..

Is he trying to knee him in the crotch while elbowing him?

Karlsson isnt that good on the boards and Cooke is. He's an accomplished checker in the NHL.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Just like he knew every other single time he ran at players.

And look at me..I'm a Leafs fan defending a Sens player but this is just calling it like it is.

Accidents dont just keep happening to the same player over and over.
What I see is that he was trying to pin him.

Karlsson knows this is coming, tries to wriggle away and shifts to the inside.

Cooke senses this pin will not work and flails in the puck's general direction in an attempt to gain control but by that time Karlsson's already repositioned and the leg comes down on the sweet spot, thus screwing my team out of arguably the best D-man in the league for the season. ******.

That's the most I can make out of this. Now back to grieving.

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02-15-2013, 12:23 AM
  #478
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many of you guys are over analyzing this, when you're going at full speed, you really think cooke had this thought out before hand?

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02-15-2013, 12:23 AM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I'm having a hard time understanding why the skate has to be raised at all..

Is he trying to knee him in the crotch while elbowing him?

Karlsson isnt that good on the boards and Cooke is. He's an accomplished checker in the NHL.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Just like he knew every other single time he ran at players.

And look at me..I'm a Leafs fan defending a Sens player but this is just calling it like it is.

Accidents dont just keep happening to the same player over and over.
Because often when you're struggling to pin someone, your non-planted foot comes off the ground as you push off your planted foot.

You're reaching so unbelievably hard. Not everything has to be all dramatic. We don't live in a movie.

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02-15-2013, 12:25 AM
  #480
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Originally Posted by OilerTyler View Post
I'm not sure what Cooke's history has to do with this particular incident.

If it is a dirty play, it is a dirty play regardless of the player (and the players history).

Anyone who looks at this objectively can see that it was a freak accident and not dirty. It doesn't magically become dirty because Cooke elbowed some players a couple of years ago.
Probably the smartest post ever to grace these boards.

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02-15-2013, 12:29 AM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Thats all well and good but it is also wrong.

I see lots of Sens fans saying that it looks accidental, they are wrong but that is what allot of them are saying. I keep watching it and I keep seeing a distinct kicking motion that looks like it is intended to scrape down the back of Karlssons leg.

If it were about Cooke penning Karlsson then this whole thing wouldn't be being discussed.

It looks like Cooke was trying to give a bit of a kick to the back of Karlssons leg. I doubt he meant to try and filet the kid but he wasn't simply directing Karsson into the boards either.
Again, it looks that way in super slow motion. Its hard to discern even in the regular slow motion replays If you watch it in real time its less than a fraction of a second. The downward motion happens as soon as they contact the boards. its from the impact. his skate comes down onto the top of Karlsons skate and thats where the laceration takes place.

Its incidental. a half dozen of these injuries happen a year, mostly to grunts that you never hear from or AHL players. There have been a few stars that had it happen to them too, but this is the odd case where a known jackass was the inadvertant cause of it and the recipient was a superstar. Im fine with the sens and their fans being frustrated and pissed. Thats to be expected, but calls for a player to be banned over something not illegal or death threats or accusations that something like this was premeditated, well thats all a bit extreme.

When things occur faster than the human mind can react, well its just not logical to slow it down to near frame by frame then determine that it was malicious. watch closely at most games and you will see all sorts of awkward, funny looking hits around the boards, 99.999999% of which cause no injury. This was a freak occurrance from a guy whos negative rep is bigger than most.

There are plenty of things that people overlook in these cases because they want cooke suspended so they want the hit to be dirtier than it was. The reality is Cooke has been playing on pins and needles because he has to know the league is itching at a huge suspension. Hell as far as i can tell, its been over a year since he had any questionable hits and that even under the microscope. That doesnt mean he has changed or is a good person now, just that he has to know that anything cheap will get him banned. People are giving him far too much credit if they think he could make that move intentionally at that speed and get that result.

I think a lot of this stems from him skating on the Savard hit since it wasnt technically illegal at the time... people wont forgive him for that and shouldnt be expected to.

The bottom line is even the dirtiest of players can have plays that arent dirty and still cause an injury. If, lets say, Cooke had shot the puck into Karlssons face in front of the goal, that could cause serious injury and could have been utterly unintentional and wouldnt get a suspension.

I know this isnt going to convince anyone who wants to blame Cooke, but the vast majority of people across hockey are all saying that this wasnt anything but a freak play. People have all sorts of footage of fairly simular plays from other games this week. The bottom line is that everyone is hoping for a speedy recovery for Karlsson, which really is the only important thing here.

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02-15-2013, 12:29 AM
  #482
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Remember when this happened and tons of people were super adamant that it was totally by accident?

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02-15-2013, 12:38 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
it doesn't have to be completely intentional. even a teensie weensie bit intentional is guilty.

regardless. we can see it was completely reckless, irresponsible, athletically weak. (what, you can't stop your foot from stepping on someone?)
What is this level of intentionality? A "teensie weensie bit"? Is this grey area an actual thing? How can one determine that an action was 3/4 intentional let alone 1/10th or "a teensie weensie bit"? It was either deliberate or it wasn't.

Reckless may be the most one could claim about Cooke's actions here but even that claim I'm uneasy with at present.

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02-15-2013, 12:39 AM
  #484
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Originally Posted by madinsomniac View Post
Again, it looks that way in super slow motion. Its hard to discern even in the regular slow motion replays If you watch it in real time its less than a fraction of a second. The downward motion happens as soon as they contact the boards. its from the impact. his skate comes down onto the top of Karlsons skate and thats where the laceration takes place.

Its incidental. a half dozen of these injuries happen a year, mostly to grunts that you never hear from or AHL players. There have been a few stars that had it happen to them too, but this is the odd case where a known jackass was the inadvertant cause of it and the recipient was a superstar. Im fine with the sens and their fans being frustrated and pissed. Thats to be expected, but calls for a player to be banned over something not illegal or death threats or accusations that something like this was premeditated, well thats all a bit extreme.

When things occur faster than the human mind can react, well its just not logical to slow it down to near frame by frame then determine that it was malicious. watch closely at most games and you will see all sorts of awkward, funny looking hits around the boards, 99.999999% of which cause no injury. This was a freak occurrance from a guy whos negative rep is bigger than most.

There are plenty of things that people overlook in these cases because they want cooke suspended so they want the hit to be dirtier than it was. The reality is Cooke has been playing on pins and needles because he has to know the league is itching at a huge suspension. Hell as far as i can tell, its been over a year since he had any questionable hits and that even under the microscope. That doesnt mean he has changed or is a good person now, just that he has to know that anything cheap will get him banned. People are giving him far too much credit if they think he could make that move intentionally at that speed and get that result.

I think a lot of this stems from him skating on the Savard hit since it wasnt technically illegal at the time... people wont forgive him for that and shouldnt be expected to.

The bottom line is even the dirtiest of players can have plays that arent dirty and still cause an injury. If, lets say, Cooke had shot the puck into Karlssons face in front of the goal, that could cause serious injury and could have been utterly unintentional and wouldnt get a suspension.

I know this isnt going to convince anyone who wants to blame Cooke, but the vast majority of people across hockey are all saying that this wasnt anything but a freak play. People have all sorts of footage of fairly simular plays from other games this week. The bottom line is that everyone is hoping for a speedy recovery for Karlsson, which really is the only important thing here.
Thank you for a really well thought out response to my admittedly lesser post.

Unfortunately you are wrong again. You have persuaded me to revisit the slow mo again and to look at where everything/everyone is at the moment Cooke's skate goes down to make the cutting motion that has caused me up to this point to believe that Cooke had to have some amount of culpability for the outcome of his actions.

After reading your post (and a couple of others) I revisited the vids and you actually have convinced me that it is very possible that Cooke's actions where unintentional. I wasn't convinced that he was certainly guilty before but I am leaning way more towards his not acting with any intent in what ended up happening.

Great job.

(and to be certain, I am not being sarcastic)

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02-15-2013, 12:45 AM
  #485
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I'm in the "accidental" camp. I get why people are upset and want Cookes head on a silver platter, but I just don't share their views on the situation.

I'm more frustrated with the officials that failed to see the puck hitting the mesh seconds before this unfortunate mess went down. The players on the ice all saw it yet the officials whose job it is to notice these things didn't? 4 sets of eyes just can't miss that.

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02-15-2013, 12:48 AM
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quo View Post
What is this level of intentionality? A "teensie weensie bit"? Is this grey area an actual thing? How can one determine that an action was 3/4 intentional let alone 1/10th or "a teensie weensie bit"? It was either deliberate or it wasn't.

Reckless may be the most one could claim about Cooke's actions here but even that claim I'm uneasy with at present.
if you intend to murder someone, even if just a little bit, are you guilty?

but, i digress. we are getting into semantics. regardless, intention is impossible to prove or disprove.

but, i stand by recklessness. just by the fact that every other player in history makes this play 1000s of times and so few (almost none) actually end up doing what Cooke did. players get sticks in the face, and cut by blades in a pile up, but almost no one gets stepped on.

just my opinion, but for me:

rarity + Matt Cooke = guilty.

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02-15-2013, 12:48 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by Matt Damon View Post
I'm more frustrated with the officials that failed to see the puck hitting the mesh seconds before this unfortunate mess went down. The players on the ice all saw it yet the officials whose job it is to notice these things didn't? 4 sets of eyes just can't miss that.
Amen. I think all fanbases can unite on that score. This is why we are dealing with this bull right now.

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02-15-2013, 12:57 AM
  #488
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100% guilty of trying to injure. There is no way a player does what he did by accident. Why do you jab your foot in that motion, his weight is on the other leg, it was after he jabbed opposing player. He was not trying to gain balence, it had nothing to do with pinning anybody (that motion with his leg). The motion has only one intent, to jab the player with his skate.

just my opinion and I could be 100% wrong, but i'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't believe people actually think it's innocent...


Last edited by oilexport: 02-15-2013 at 03:44 AM. Reason: spelling
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02-15-2013, 01:05 AM
  #489
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if you look at the play, it all comes down to a judgement call, and Shanny may his judgement, but it is still a 'judgement' based on one's interpretation.

i guess i have this question for the sympathizers:

why does Matt Cooke deserve the benefit of the doubt?

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02-15-2013, 01:10 AM
  #490
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
if you look at the play, it all comes down to a judgement call, and Shanny may his judgement, but it is still a 'judgement' based on one's interpretation.

i guess i have this question for the sympathizers:

why does Matt Cooke deserve the benefit of the doubt?
Which is why I really think it shouldn't be just one man making these decisions. Should be at least 3 or 4 guys coming to a consensus or some middle ground instead of one mans opinion.

I happen to agree with Shanahan on this one, but just throwing that out there in general.

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02-15-2013, 01:16 AM
  #491
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I'm still on the fence on this one....

Still leaning towards intentional.....

That little "extra" kick to the leg is questionable at best...

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02-15-2013, 01:20 AM
  #492
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Originally Posted by Glennsoe View Post
I'm still on the fence on this one....

Still leaning towards intentional.....

That little "extra" kick to the leg is questionable at best...
careful with all the extra periods on this board, nobody gonna take ya seriously...

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02-15-2013, 01:31 AM
  #493
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Herein lies my point:

90% of the hockey world agrees this was an accident. They came to this conclusion by looking at all of the evidence available to them.
It seems that many here can't set aside the negative feelings they have for Matt Cooke and end up using emotion rather than logic to come to a conclusion. These people 'knew' he was guilty before they even saw the video, they just won't admit it.

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02-15-2013, 01:34 AM
  #494
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When I first saw the play I thought for sure it was intentional. It was the manner in which Cooke seemingly stomped on the back of Karlsson's leg and placed his foot back onto the ice. It looked like he was trying to injure; not necessarily to slash his tendon, but to injure.

However, this was having my Cooke bias on, and slow-mo video helping me dissect every second. Upon viewing from the angle looking up ice; in semi-real time, it looks like an accident. I really want to say otherwise, because I think Cooke is a dirty **** that does not deserve to play professional hockey.

It's super difficult to judge this without bias. I want Cooke to have done it on purpose (not for the Karlsson injury, that is the last thing I would wish) only so the NHL could help him fill out a gas station job application. But I don't think even Cooke is that malevolent as to use his blade as a weapon.

Bias aside, I see it as an accident. **** happens and it sucks. I hope Karlsson fully recovers without incident. However, I still hope Cooke has his teeth dislocated and nose misaligned by way of fist next time these teams meet.

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02-15-2013, 01:37 AM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Sty1877 View Post
Herein lies my point:

90% of the hockey world agrees this was an accident. They came to this conclusion by looking at all of the evidence available to them.
It seems that many here can't set aside the negative feelings they have for Matt Cooke and end up using emotion rather than logic to come to a conclusion. These people 'knew' he was guilty before they even saw the video, they just won't admit it.
So what you are saying is everyone that disagrees with you are wrong because you have a preconceived notion as to why their opinions differ with yours. Well, can't really argue with you then. Especially since you can read minds and broadly group everyone together and conviently dismiss them out of hand as emotional, full of bias,uneducated and illogical. How open minded of you, good sir.

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02-15-2013, 02:34 AM
  #496
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EVery Toronto media "expert" declared it was an accident. Doug Maclean said he watched the tape 50 times,...and virtually guaranteed,...Cooke didn't do it on purpose. Have all these people lost their minds? To me,....the video shows that it is so obvious,...that Cooke raised his leg up,...and dropped it down on his leg just above his skate. Are all these "hockey experts" blind? In a comment I wrote here a month ago,...I talked about the fact that he purposely injures the best player,..on any perpective team,...if ever he gets the slightest opportunity. If he is in the right spot, at the right time,....to seriously injure a player,....he can't resist(expecially if he has he opportunity to take out "their top player"). Lecavalier, Savard, Karlsson.....I'm sure there were many more. Matt Cooke has great balance on skates,.....he knew exactly what he was doing,....once he got Karlsson with his back to the boards....in such a vulnerable position. For him,...it's as easy as taking candy from a kid. Wake up people.
Are you an expert?

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02-15-2013, 02:52 AM
  #497
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
So what you are saying is everyone that disagrees with you are wrong because you have a preconceived notion as to why their opinions differ with yours. Well, can't really argue with you then. Especially since you can read minds and broadly group everyone together and conviently dismiss them out of hand as emotional, full of bias,uneducated and illogical. How open minded of you, good sir.
I think his point was a good one.

Most of the educated hockey world knows this was an accident.

Clearly there must be something clouding the judgement of those who can't see it. I mean, it's on video.

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02-15-2013, 03:16 AM
  #498
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Ray Shero knows how it feels like...

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02-15-2013, 03:31 AM
  #499
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to the naysayers
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingPantherExtreme View Post
Did nobody see Cooke pissed off about getting hit high by a slapper earlier in the game?? Has nobody seen the endless attempts to injure on youtube?

And then he sees a star in the corner with his back turned. Hes pissed off and wanting to play tough, of course Cooke is going to give Karlsson some extra. He is not off balance at all. If he was trying to put his foot down for balance it would come down under him, instead he is doing the splits trying to get his skate on karlssons leg on the way down.

Guy wanted to sting him on the leg and **** went wrong. Intent to lacerate? No, just a moronic reckless dirty play. Should be suspended the year for skate as a weapon causing injury.
This is spot on - how many times a game do players check an opposing player into the boards ?
How many times does a player get his achilles lacerated in the NHL ?
How many times has Cooke injured a player with reckless and or malicious behavior ?
I will allow he may not have meant to cut his achilles, but COME ON - the people saying it was purely
accidental ? I think he gets into situations where his instincts take over and bad things happen."

Spot on..

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02-15-2013, 03:36 AM
  #500
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I dunno.. I'm wondering why Cooke's skate was up in the air like that, looked intentional to me. And I hate Karlsson (even though I'm a swede, yeah) big time. Cooke didn't look off balance at all so why was his skate up in the air like that? It looked like he ''stomped'' Karlsson on purpose IMO.

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