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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-18-2013, 12:19 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I wonder how many posters know what they would be getting if we acquired O'Reilly. He's sort of a center version of Pommer. But RoR has the better defensive game and Pommer, right now, has the better offensive game.

When I say they are similar I'm referring to the fact that they both use their brains and not brawn to be effective. O'Reilly, like Pommer, is not a hitter nor a physical player nor a dirty/chippy player. But he is effective because he understands the game so well. He is one of the smarter players in the game.

I would love to see a line of XXX/O'Reilly/Pommer if we can acquire him.
I was thinking Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville earlier today. That would be a really good second line. Vanek and Hodgson would then need a RW, and it also takes Pominville away from Vanek, which isn't good either.

Either way, it's not a bad set up.

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02-18-2013, 12:46 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I was thinking Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville earlier today. That would be a really good second line. Vanek and Hodgson would then need a RW, and it also takes Pominville away from Vanek, which isn't good either.

Either way, it's not a bad set up.
I know people won't like this, but Armia, if he's not part of the ROR deal.

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02-18-2013, 12:53 PM
  #353
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I know people won't like this, but Armia, if he's not part of the ROR deal.
Not to mention by the time Girgensons is ready, there may be other roster changes--hell it's possible (even if unlikely) that Vanek himself gets traded. Or they sign Corey Perry...or a prospect like Armia or Tropp ends up fitting well there...etc. Hell, maybe Vanek/Pommer for unknown reasons stop playing well together. So it's not an immediate thing to worry about.

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02-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I know people won't like this, but Armia, if he's not part of the ROR deal.
Vanek/Hodgson/Tropp had some success last year -- I wonder if Vanek/Hodgson/Ott might work too?

Vanek/Hodgson/Ott
X/ROR/Poms

Then Grigorenko as center #3? Might work well.

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02-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #355
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Stafford, Brennan, and our 1st round pick

I don't understand offering more than that b/c would't the compensatory picks for an offer sheet just be a 1st and a 3rd?

I've seen people wanting to offer a 1st and Pysyk (or Armia). That doesn't make any sense to me. We're going to give up, essentially, 2 mid 1st rounders still in process for a 2nd rounder that has developed very well?

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02-18-2013, 02:46 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by matthew94 View Post
Stafford, Brennan, and our 1st round pick

I don't understand offering more than that b/c would't the compensatory picks for an offer sheet just be a 1st and a 3rd?

I've seen people wanting to offer a 1st and Pysyk (or Armia). That doesn't make any sense to me. We're going to give up, essentially, 2 mid 1st rounders still in process for a 2nd rounder that has developed very well?
There's no way Colorado takes that because multiple teams want him, O'Reilly won't sign an offer sheet in fear of Colorado matching, and that last line made me laugh pretty hard because it's irrelevant. Who cares what round he was drafted in? If they redrafted the 2009 draft today, he'd be a top 10 pick for sure, on the fringe of the top 5. You also have to take into account that there is a 0% chance that O'Reilly is a bust while we still don't know about Pysyk or Armia on the NHL level. It would take more than one of them and a first to get RoR.

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02-18-2013, 03:42 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
There's no way Colorado takes that because multiple teams want him, O'Reilly won't sign an offer sheet in fear of Colorado matching, and that last line made me laugh pretty hard because it's irrelevant. Who cares what round he was drafted in? If they redrafted the 2009 draft today, he'd be a top 10 pick for sure, on the fringe of the top 5. You also have to take into account that there is a 0% chance that O'Reilly is a bust while we still don't know about Pysyk or Armia on the NHL level. It would take more than one of them and a first to get RoR.
Why would he be afraid of Colorado matching an offer sheet?

Has he said he doesn't want to play for them?

If you sign an offer sheet, you like the contract. I was under the impression that the only reason he didn't sign yet is b/c he didn't like the contract.

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02-18-2013, 03:50 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by matthew94 View Post
Why would he be afraid of Colorado matching an offer sheet?

Has he said he doesn't want to play for them?

If you sign an offer sheet, you like the contract. I was under the impression that the only reason he didn't sign yet is b/c he didn't like the contract.

Here is the scuttlebutt:

O'Reilly was in line to take the Captaincy when Hejduk retired. Everyone in Colorado knew it. Landeskog came in last season and was great but O"Reilly had put 3 years of hard leadership in.

Hejduk backs out of the Captaincy, but O'Reilly is in negotiations.

O'Reilly continues holding out into the summer, Colorado decides "Eff that" and makes Landeskog the Captian. O'Reilly feels shafted and that is why he refuses to come down on his money because he now feels double shafted in his value to the Avs.

Avs then come back from the lockout and offer the same offer from before, they try and talk for a week and then the Avs tell him "You can sit" and don't talk to him or his agent for like 2 weeks, and then rumor gets out that they are listening to offers.

After working hard for 3 years would you want to stay on that team?

For the record, I'm one of the Avs fans that feels O'Reilly should have been our captain. I like Lando, but O'Reilly has been captain since day one.

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02-18-2013, 03:53 PM
  #359
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Two things I won't be surprised about with this situation:

1. Avs pay more money in the pieces coming back than O"Reilly was asking for.

2. O'Reilly signs for 4Mil or even less once on a new team. I honestly think he has been keeping his price high with the Avs because he feels they shafted him on the Captaincy.

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02-18-2013, 04:07 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
and that last line made me laugh pretty hard because it's irrelevant. Who cares what round he was drafted in? If they redrafted the 2009 draft today, he'd be a top 10 pick for sure, on the fringe of the top 5. You also have to take into account that there is a 0% chance that O'Reilly is a bust while we still don't know about Pysyk or Armia on the NHL level.
By saying he has developed well, I was admitting that if he were re-drafted it would be in the 1st round (I wasn't trying to put him down by mentioning that he was a 2nd round draft pick). Looking at the 2009 draft, I'd say he probably would fit somewhere in the 5-7 range.

But using that same logic on the players I mentioned, let's see what we come up with.

Where would Drew Stafford be picked if the 2004 draft were held today. I'd speculate he'd be picked right about where he was picked (#13).

Where would TJ Brennen be picked if the 2007 draft were held today. Once again, I'd say right around where he was picked #31).

I also offered our 1st round pick, which would currently be around #7, but would likely drop with ROR in the lineup. Let's guess we were able to grab the 8th seed (Anything more like that seems like a pipe dream at this point). That'd put our 1st rounder at about the 15th pick.

So in my offer we'd be trading a 13, 15, and 31 for a 6.

A standard draft value chart says those 3 picks have the value of 1169 points. The 6th pick has a value of 702 points. Of course, Brennan and Stafford are OLDER now, so that would bring their value down (though they are certainly not OLD).

I say the value is pretty fair. And the NHL would basically agree, it seems, since a 5 million dollar signed to an offer sheet is valued at a 1st and 3rd rounder.

In my way of looking at things, Stafford is worth about the same as Armia in terms of NHL value. But since Armia is younger than Stafford by quite a bit, an Armia/Brennan/1st package is a much better deal for Colorado... and probably an overpayment from Buffalo.

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02-18-2013, 04:13 PM
  #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthew94 View Post
By saying he has developed well, I was admitting that if he were re-drafted it would be in the 1st round (I wasn't trying to put him down by mentioning that he was a 2nd round draft pick). Looking at the 2009 draft, I'd say he probably would fit somewhere in the 5-7 range.

But using that same logic on the players I mentioned, let's see what we come up with.

Where would Drew Stafford be picked if the 2004 draft were held today. I'd speculate he'd be picked right about where he was picked (#13).

Where would TJ Brennen be picked if the 2007 draft were held today. Once again, I'd say right around where he was picked #31).

I also offered our 1st round pick, which would currently be around #7, but would likely drop with ROR in the lineup. Let's guess we were able to grab the 8th seed (Anything more like that seems like a pipe dream at this point). That'd put our 1st rounder at about the 15th pick.

So in my offer we'd be trading a 13, 15, and 31 for a 6.

A standard draft value chart says those 3 picks have the value of 1169 points. The 6th pick has a value of 702 points. Of course, Brennan and Stafford are OLDER now, so that would bring their value down (though they are certainly not OLD).

I say the value is pretty fair. And the NHL would basically agree, it seems, since a 5 million dollar signed to an offer sheet is valued at a 1st and 3rd rounder.

In my way of looking at things, Stafford is worth about the same as Armia in terms of NHL value. But since Armia is younger than Stafford by quite a bit, an Armia/Brennan/1st package is a much better deal for Colorado... and probably an overpayment from Buffalo.
Stop looking at draft slots and you'll figure out why.

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02-18-2013, 06:01 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by enrothorne View Post
Stop looking at draft slots and you'll figure out why.
This. It has no bearing on anything once the players are drafted because we know what players have turned into (in Stafford and O'Reilly's case, we at least know their floor). You're also making an assumption that every draft is of equal caliber which isn't the case. Every team has a TJ Brennan in their prospect pool; the Avs have a better version of him in Tyson Barrie, who doesn't have Brennan's shot but has far better vision and playmaking abilities. Brennan isn't an NHL caliber defenseman in my opinion, and best case he's a 3rd pairing guy. Armia has the potential to be a top 6 winger who scores a pile of goals but he's no guarantee; O'Reilly is a guarantee and that's the difference. Worst case, he's one of the best defensive centers in the game. Best case, he does that while consistently putting up solid offensive numbers for a #2 center.

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02-18-2013, 06:41 PM
  #363
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As Zip would say, your not going to get him by offering 2 dimes and a nickle for a quarter. You cant just put together a whole bunch of minor crap to get a much better player, very rarely works that way. Brennan trade value sucks, Stafford being in a slump and his $4 million cap hit are a tough sell as well. The pick is kinda high now but as you alluded to in your post, our lineup with Radar is much improved and it will end up being a mid first.

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02-18-2013, 06:54 PM
  #364
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Brennan + Leopold + Gerbe + Adam + Enroth for O'Reilly and Giguere. Makes sense for both teams





am I doing it right?

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02-18-2013, 06:57 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Brennan + Leopold + Gerbe + Adam + Enroth for O'Reilly and Giguere. Makes sense for both teams





am I doing it right?
If that gets us ROR, Regier should get a 50yr contract extension.
Edit: hahaha, you got me.

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02-18-2013, 06:58 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Brennan + Leopold + Gerbe + Adam + Enroth for O'Reilly and Giguere. Makes sense for both teams





am I doing it right?
(No... You're not)

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02-18-2013, 07:03 PM
  #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Brennan + Leopold + Gerbe + Adam + Enroth for O'Reilly and Giguere. Makes sense for both teams





am I doing it right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
If that gets us ROR, Regier should get a 50yr contract extension.
Edit: hahaha, you got me.
Ha, I didn't see it at first either, well played sir

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02-18-2013, 07:10 PM
  #368
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Ennis, Sekera, Armia, 1st is likely what Colorado is asking for right now for ROR.....

They are asking for a ton and seeing if a team bites.

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02-18-2013, 07:14 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
Ennis, Sekera, Armia, 1st is likely what Colorado is asking for right now for ROR.....

They are asking for a ton and seeing if a team bites.
I think that's a bit much even for them to be asking for, drop one of those four and I'd agree. It's a steep price even in that case.

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02-18-2013, 07:21 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by LegomyLeggio View Post
Ennis, Sekera, Armia, 1st is likely what Colorado is asking for right now for ROR.....

They are asking for a ton and seeing if a team bites.
They can ask for that all they want because they won't get it, what leverage does Colorado have with a player who has all but said he will never play for them again? RoR will be moved for a rather underwhelming packing imo. A top 6 foward/top 4 D and a "A" level prospect. These are deals I can see happening.

Kulikov for O'Reilly
Gardiner + Ashton for O'Reilly
Del Zotto + for O'Reilly
Sekera + for O'Reilly
Ennis + Pysyk for O'Reilly
Silfverberg + Ceci for O'Reilly

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02-18-2013, 07:26 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
They can ask for that all they want because they won't get it, what leverage does Colorado have with a player who has all but said he will never play for them again? RoR will be moved for a rather underwhelming packing imo. A top 6 foward/top 4 D and a "A" level prospect. These are deals I can see happening.

Kulikov for O'Reilly
Gardiner + Ashton for O'Reilly
Del Zotto + for O'Reilly
Sekera + for O'Reilly
Ennis + Pysyk for O'Reilly
Silfverberg + Ceci for O'Reilly
It all depends on whether they can get just one GM to panic and overpay.

It's always about who panics first.

Just look at the Sabres getting two former 1st rounders for Peca who sat out a whole year....

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02-18-2013, 07:29 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
They can ask for that all they want because they won't get it, what leverage does Colorado have with a player who has all but said he will never play for them again? RoR will be moved for a rather underwhelming packing imo. A top 6 foward/top 4 D and a "A" level prospect. These are deals I can see happening.

Kulikov for O'Reilly
Gardiner + Ashton for O'Reilly
Del Zotto + for O'Reilly
Sekera + for O'Reilly
Ennis + Pysyk for O'Reilly
Silfverberg + Ceci for O'Reilly
Kulikov, Gardiner, and Del Zotto all have a lot more value than Sekera does. Our + would have to be A LOT better than the other teams to land him. 4 years older than all those players and is 5th in total ice time among defenceman on the worst defensive team in the league.

Honestly, I think it would take Grigorenko to land O'Reilly from Colorado.

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02-18-2013, 07:39 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Have My Baby Pierre View Post
Kulikov, Gardiner, and Del Zotto all have a lot more value than Sekera does. Our + would have to be A LOT better than the other teams to land him. 4 years older than all those players and is 5th in total ice time among defenceman on the worst defensive team in the league.

Honestly, I think it would take Grigorenko to land O'Reilly from Colorado.
I'd be fine with trading Grigorenko for O'Reilly

Or Ennis

I'd add Brennan and a 2nd to either deal

But the offer above (ennis, sekera, armia, 1st) is ASTOUNDINGLY crazy

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02-18-2013, 07:42 PM
  #374
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http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...-to-him/12593/

Quote:
My good friend Elliotte also said on the HNIC ďHot StoveĒ last night that the Avs talked with the New York Rangers about a deal for OíReilly, whereby the Avs asked for defenseman Michael Del Zotto and another prospect. That prospect might have been Chris Kreider or J.T. Miller. If Elliotte reports something, itís the gospel. So you have an idea just how hard a bargain the Avs are driving with OíReilly not only with him at the bargaining table, but at the trade talk table for him with other teams.

Which is inherently ironic isnít it? The Avs think so much of him that they wonít accept anything less than a offer they canít refuse. Yet they apparently donít think enough of him to offer him the kind of money he wants.
So, what is the Sabres equivalent to Del Z + Kreider or Miller?

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02-18-2013, 07:54 PM
  #375
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http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2013...-to-him/12593/



So, what is the Sabres equivalent to Del Z + Kreider or Miller?
Sekera + Armia + another smaller piece?

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