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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:57 AM
  #426
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Seriously, an elite shutdown pivot is the one constant on every team to win the Cup since the lockout. The Hurricanes didn't have a #1 defenseman. The Wings and Blackhawks didn't have name brand goaltending. The Bruins didn't have a top flight offensive center. The Pens had no wingers.

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02-19-2013, 12:00 PM
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I guess ROR is the equivalent of these players now? Give me a break.
Actually, yes, that's what many people expect.

Richards - with less offense.
Bergeron - about the same
Toews - with less offense, maybe not as good defensively?
Staal - about the same
Datsyuk - Yep, can't compare to Datsyuk
Getzlaf - better defensively, not as good offensively, maybe
Brind'Amour - All time great, hard to compare

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02-19-2013, 12:01 PM
  #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I guess ROR is the equivalent of these players now? Give me a break.
You're conflating the argument. You say a player of his type doesn't win Cups, others say he does. Whether he's at that level yet or not is completely separate, however I think most people would agree he is at a level high enough to help a team win a Cup in that role. He is an elite defensive centerman, that's not really in question.

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02-19-2013, 12:02 PM
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I guess ROR is the equivalent of these players now? Give me a break.
He played Kopitar's role for Colorado last season. His line was the Avalanche's most effective unit in terms of possession and winning its matchup, even though they were going against top competition. He led that team in points. He was 20-21 while doing all of this.

Time is the biggest, maybe even the only thing separating him from that tier of players.

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02-19-2013, 12:03 PM
  #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Actually, yes, that's what many people expect.

Richards - with less offense.
Bergeron - about the same
Toews - with less offense, maybe not as good defensively?
Staal - about the same
Datsyuk - Yep, can't compare to Datsyuk
Getzlaf - better defensively, not as good offensively, maybe
Brind'Amour - All time great, hard to compare
We're comparing champions to a 21 year old kid who is acting like a spoiled brat. Call me skeptical.

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02-19-2013, 12:13 PM
  #431
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There is no magic "formula" for winning a cup...The one thing that every team that won had was a bunch of talent. But not every talented team wins of course...it's got to complement each other.

ROR is a talented player. In the right situation, with the right team around him, you could win a Cup. You could say the same thing about Grigorenko, or Ennis, or anyone else--but I'd argue that putting ROR with them is creating the right situation. Adding a two-way center to complement the offensive dynamos.

Having a dynamic 1/2 center combo is not enough to win a Cup, or San Jose would have won with Thornton/Marleau a long time ago. Having a team full of RORs isn't enough...you need both. You need a well rounded team with talent at every position.

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02-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
. I really hate this notion. You win cups with Crosby/Malkin, Toews/Kane/Hossa, Datsyuk/Zetterburg/Lidstrom, or a hot goalie like Quick or Thomas and with Chara or Doughty at peak form in front of them. It might be nice to have a good shut down line, but it would be there to complement the great players who are what you really need to win a cup. Selling the farm for a complementary piece is dumb.
considering a shutdown center who provides top 6 scoring a "complimentary piece" is what's dumb

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02-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
We're comparing champions to a 21 year old kid who is acting like a spoiled brat. Call me skeptical.
I didn't know you're only allowed to get 1 season and one shot with O'Reilly. Or does he not get older and better?

BTW Toews was 21 when they won the cup. As was Eric Staal. Jordan Staal was 20. Getzlaf 22.

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02-19-2013, 12:15 PM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Yup. Girgensons-O'Reilly is the type of line you win Cups with.
I want that line so badly

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02-19-2013, 12:17 PM
  #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I guess ROR is the equivalent of these players now? Give me a break.
He's definitely is comparable to Toews, Bergeron, Richards

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02-19-2013, 12:18 PM
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Actually, yes, that's what many people expect.

Richards - with less offense.
Bergeron - about the same
Toews - with less offense, maybe not as good defensively?
Staal - about the same
Datsyuk - Yep, can't compare to Datsyuk
Getzlaf - better defensively, not as good offensively, maybe
Brind'Amour - All time great, hard to compare
better

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02-19-2013, 12:20 PM
  #437
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stokes, you're not getting that you build around a guy like ROR. You don't get him then stop. You get him, pray that Myers turns into what he's supposed to. Keep a guy like Vanek around for the offensive contributions. Keep a guy like Kaleta for the heart and soul, the win at any cost attitude. Have some of your young guys on the cheap contribute. Most Stanley Cup winners have most if not all of those things.

I and others would argue that the defensive shutdown center (who can also contribute offense) is the hardest piece to get when trying to build a contender.


Last edited by vcv: 02-19-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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02-19-2013, 12:22 PM
  #438
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I want that line so badly
Our Bergeron-Marchand, Brown-Kopitar. Drool.

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02-19-2013, 12:28 PM
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
We're comparing champions to a 21 year old kid who is acting like a spoiled brat. Call me skeptical.
I think your entire opinion of O'reilly has been predicated on the willingness of others to trade Ennis for him. It seems to have angered you.

The more you comment on O'reilly the more it is clear you have very little first hand knowledge.

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02-19-2013, 12:31 PM
  #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I didn't know you're only allowed to get 1 season and one shot with O'Reilly. Or does he not get older and better?

BTW Toews was 21 when they won the cup. As was Eric Staal. Jordan Staal was 20. Getzlaf 22.
Exactly. While those players went out and earned their reputation at a young age, this kid is holding out for more money. Character matters.

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02-19-2013, 12:34 PM
  #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think your entire opinion of O'reilly has been predicated on the willingness of others to trade Ennis for him. It seems to have angered you.

The more you comment on O'reilly the more it is clear you have very little first hand knowledge.
Right, because comparing a 21 year old kid with 6 total playoff games to champions and all-time greats shows my bias. You got me good. The hyperbole surrounding this kid is nauseating. You are attacking my credibility while making some of the most ridiculous, unfounded claims on these boards that I've seen. Take a look in the mirror.

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02-19-2013, 12:37 PM
  #442
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Colorado is reportedly asking for a roster player, prospect and pick.

Brennan, Grigorenko, 2nd rounder (I'd up it to a first if needed).

It's comparable to the Richards deal, Colorado gets a LHD, and Buffalo's best prospect.

Buffalo moves forward in 2014 with:

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville
Girgensons - O'Reilly - Ott/Tropp
Foligno - Ennis - Stafford

With Armia on the way.

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02-19-2013, 12:38 PM
  #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Our Bergeron-Marchand, Brown-Kopitar. Drool.
So, I gett the Bergeron comparison and its an apt one. But Kopitar? Really? RoR is a good player, but Kopitar is a different beast entirely. Stoll is a much better comparison.

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02-19-2013, 12:39 PM
  #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Colorado is reportedly asking for a roster player, prospect and pick.

Brennan, Grigorenko, 2nd rounder (I'd up it to a first if needed).

It's comparable to the Richards deal, Colorado gets a LHD, and Buffalo's best prospect.

Buffalo moves forward in 2014 with:

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville
Girgensons - O'Reilly - Ott/Tropp
Foligno - Ennis - Stafford

With Armia on the way.
For the love of god we aren't trading a potential 18 year old franchise center for a good defensive center.

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02-19-2013, 12:40 PM
  #445
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Right, because comparing a 21 year old kid with 6 total playoff games to champions and all-time greats shows my bias. You got me good. The hyperbole surrounding this kid is nauseating.
It's only neauseating to you because Ennis is constantly talked about in a deal for him, and it bothers you. You have shown you are completely incapable of talking about Ryan O'reilly. You haven't watched him enough. And the basic NHL.com stats don't give you much.

Comparing incredibly successful young players to their peers!!!!

Crazy... i know.

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02-19-2013, 12:44 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
For the love of god we aren't trading a potential 18 year old franchise center for a good defensive center.
I'd love for Grigorenko to develop into that franchise center... but the odds that he does aren't very good. (maybe you have a different definition of "franchise center")

The odds that O'reilly is an every year 50 pt center and wins a few Selkes are very good.

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02-19-2013, 12:46 PM
  #447
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So, I gett the Bergeron comparison and its an apt one. But Kopitar? Really? RoR is a good player, but Kopitar is a different beast entirely. Stoll is a much better comparison.
stop.... please stop. your turning lloyd

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02-19-2013, 12:48 PM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It's only neauseating to you because Ennis is constantly talked about in a deal for him, and it bothers you. You have shown you are completely incapable of talking about Ryan O'reilly. You haven't watched him enough. And the basic NHL.com stats don't give you much.

Comparing incredibly successful young players to their peers!!!!

Crazy... i know.
There we go again with the hyperbole. The level of success attained by the players mentioned hasn't been remotely close to the level of success attained by ROR. Keep on spouting off this stuff. It's entertaining.

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02-19-2013, 12:53 PM
  #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
For the love of god we aren't trading a potential 18 year old franchise center for a good defensive center.
You're undercutting O'Reilly. He's not a purely defensive center, just like Mike Richards isn't.

What are the odds Grigorenko actually becomes that franchise 1C?

What are the odds O'Reilly becomes a 50 point two-way 2C?

The answers are:
- who knows
- really good, since he's already done it once

Cup winners have guys like O'Reilly. vcv showed it in this thread. Hodgson-O'Reilly-Ennis is a good group of centers moving forward.

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02-19-2013, 12:55 PM
  #450
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I consider giving up Grigorenko for ROR insane ...
I'd love to have ROR, but at a fair price. I'm not that sold on ROR yet.

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