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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:57 PM
  #451
TehDoak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I'd love for Grigorenko to develop into that franchise center... but the odds that he does aren't very good. (maybe you have a different definition of "franchise center")

The odds that O'reilly is an every year 50 pt center and wins a few Selkes are very good.
I don't think he'll be Crosby, but he certainly has the tools to be a very good #1 center (read: 75-80+ points on a consistent basis). You don't trade those, you develop them. He's an NHLer already at 18. I don't agree with how he's being handled, but he can take a regular shift and still has alot to learn. Either way, unless I'm using him to get a comparable center (O'Reilly is good, but Grig's upside is better).

Now, IF our situation was different, where we had entrenched, proven #1/#2 centers and we were an O'Reilly-type player away from the cup, I'd consider that deal if he were really the missing piece. But we aren't. We're a rebuilding team. We've got a similar player in our system in Girgensons. Let's get as much talent as we can and see where it goes.

Swapping a prospect who has higher end skill for a young proven NHLer is a loss for a rebuilding team IMHO. Sure, O'Reilly would help us WIN NOW, and would make us a better team today. But Grigerenko could be cornerstone to a franchise that could win for the next 10-15 years.

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02-19-2013, 01:03 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
There we go again with the hyperbole. The level of success attained by the players mentioned hasn't been remotely close to the level of success attained by ROR. Keep on spouting off this stuff. It's entertaining.
So you compare O'reilly to Girgensons, a player who hasn't been "remotely close to the level of success attained by ROR".

Keep it coming hypcrite. Your boxed in. You can't talk about Ryan O'reilly because you don't watch hockey outside of the Sabres. You can't use your typical NHL.com argument because the stats are good.

You are left to complain about comparisons, and make ignorant arguments about the value of a shutdown center.

Comparing Ennis to Briere and then giving grief to those who compare O'reilly to top 6 2 way centers makes you a massive hypocrite who should cease to be taken seriously in this conversation

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02-19-2013, 01:06 PM
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I don't think he'll be Crosby, but he certainly has the tools to be a very good #1 center (read: 75-80+ points on a consistent basis). You don't trade those, you develop them. He's an NHLer already at 18. I don't agree with how he's being handled, but he can take a regular shift and still has alot to learn. Either way, unless I'm using him to get a comparable center (O'Reilly is good, but Grig's upside is better).

Now, IF our situation was different, where we had entrenched, proven #1/#2 centers and we were an O'Reilly-type player away from the cup, I'd consider that deal if he were really the missing piece. But we aren't. We're a rebuilding team. We've got a similar player in our system in Girgensons. Let's get as much talent as we can and see where it goes.

Swapping a prospect who has higher end skill for a young proven NHLer is a loss for a rebuilding team IMHO. Sure, O'Reilly would help us WIN NOW, and would make us a better team today. But Grigerenko could be cornerstone to a franchise that could win for the next 10-15 years.
You're framing the argument: O'Reilly helps Buffalo win now and in the future. Hes younger than Ennis and Hodgson.

Schenn was HFs #1 prospect at one time. He got traded. Is Grigorenko, Brennan, 1st round pick so far off from what LA dealt to get Richards that this trade proposal is that preposterous? You may not like it, but LA sent a 1C in Schenn, Simmonds, and a 2nd to Phily for Richards. It happens.

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02-19-2013, 01:08 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I don't think he'll be Crosby, but he certainly has the tools to be a very good #1 center (read: 75-80+ points on a consistent basis). You don't trade those, you develop them. He's an NHLer already at 18. I don't agree with how he's being handled, but he can take a regular shift and still has alot to learn. Either way, unless I'm using him to get a comparable center (O'Reilly is good, but Grig's upside is better).

Now, IF our situation was different, where we had entrenched, proven #1/#2 centers and we were an O'Reilly-type player away from the cup, I'd consider that deal if he were really the missing piece. But we aren't. We're a rebuilding team. We've got a similar player in our system in Girgensons. Let's get as much talent as we can and see where it goes.

Swapping a prospect who has higher end skill for a young proven NHLer is a loss for a rebuilding team IMHO. Sure, O'Reilly would help us WIN NOW, and would make us a better team today. But Grigerenko could be cornerstone to a franchise that could win for the next 10-15 years.
EVERYONE thinks their most recent high 1st round pick has that kind of ceiling. How many reach it?

16 FORWARDS... SIXTEEN TOTAL FORWARDS Scored 75+ last year.

Do you think many of them did it "consistently"?

Grigorenko would have to reach a Joe Thornton ceiling to do such a thing.

It's like the Peca trade in reverse... "Mike Peca is great and all, but Tim Connolly has franchise center potential"

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02-19-2013, 01:16 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Right, because comparing a 21 year old kid with 6 total playoff games to champions and all-time greats shows my bias. You got me good. The hyperbole surrounding this kid is nauseating. You are attacking my credibility while making some of the most ridiculous, unfounded claims on these boards that I've seen. Take a look in the mirror.
So, what you're telling everyone is you would not have traded for Patrice Bergeron after his 20-21 yr old season because he only had 7 games of playoff experience? Nor would you have traded for Mike Richards after his 20-21 yr old season because he only had 6 games of playoff experience?

That's your logic right now. You're arguing he doesn't have a lot of playoff experience, therefore you cannot compare him to the really good shutdown centers who also have good offensive ability.

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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
No, elite players at the top of their game is what they had. No one would be calling Dave Bolland elite anything if didn't play on a stacked team. And if you want to go that route, that type of player is much easier to come by. Carolina has their elite shut down center now, how are they? If you go through playoff teams from last year, you can point out numerous guys who can play that role that didn't go anywhere.
In 1st place in the Southeast Division despite starting 0-2 and 3-4?

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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think your entire opinion of O'reilly has been predicated on the willingness of others to trade Ennis for him. It seems to have angered you.

The more you comment on O'reilly the more it is clear you have very little first hand knowledge.
Just like his disdain for Hodgson is premised entirely upon his anger that we traded Kassian for him, and people in the early-going were putting him on a pedestal above Ennis. For some reason, this seems to get very personal with him.

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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
So, I gett the Bergeron comparison and its an apt one. But Kopitar? Really? RoR is a good player, but Kopitar is a different beast entirely. Stoll is a much better comparison.
I agree that Kopitar is a different beast entirely. I think he has far more offensive upside than ROR, and that goes with his defensive ability. That said, O'Reilly is much more than Jarrett Stoll.

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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
For the love of god we aren't trading a potential 18 year old franchise center for a good defensive center.
Just like LAK didn't trade the #1 prospect in hockey and possible future franchise center--plus Wayne Simmonds and a 2nd rounder--for Mike Richards, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
There we go again with the hyperbole. The level of success attained by the players mentioned hasn't been remotely close to the level of success attained by ROR. Keep on spouting off this stuff. It's entertaining.
Because it's convenient for your argument, you seem to be foreclosing the possibility that O'Reilly ever improves, even after scoring 55 pts in his 20/21 yr old season while taking on the opponent's elite offensive players and dominating them in the possession battle. Age is always a consideration. Compare O'Reilly's accomplishments to what guys like Richards had done by his 21st birthday, and you see why people hold ROR in such high esteem.

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02-19-2013, 01:17 PM
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
So you compare O'reilly to Girgensons, a player who hasn't been "remotely close to the level of success attained by ROR".

Keep it coming hypcrite. Your boxed in. You can't talk about Ryan O'reilly because you don't watch hockey outside of the Sabres. You can't use your typical NHL.com argument because the stats are good.

You are left to complain about comparisons, and make ignorant arguments about the value of a shutdown center.

Comparing Ennis to Briere and then giving grief to those who compare O'reilly to top 6 2 way centers makes you a massive hypocrite who should cease to be taken seriously in this conversation
When did I ever compare Girgensons to ROR? I remember one exchange where you said that we have a scoring center in the system, in which I replied that there was also a defensive center in the system so your point didn't work. That's about the closest I've been to comparing them. Also, when did I compare Ennis to Briere? You're really reaching for comebacks here.

And I can use NHL.com stats. ROR -1, his linemate and major contributor to his success Gabe Landeskog, +20. Anyone can look good playing next to Gabe, who IS a players you win a cup with.

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02-19-2013, 01:27 PM
  #457
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Since when is "because it's convenient to your argument" an argument point itself? Of course it's convenient, that's why I used it. I'm not closed off to him getting better, but it's not a certainty either. I'm sorry, but these so called comparables are laughable until proven otherwise.

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02-19-2013, 01:28 PM
  #458
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For those questioning O'Reilly's offensive upside, check out the link below. In the last 15 years, here is an exhaustive list the centers who averaged at least 0.68 ppg (O'Reilly's PPG last season) in their 20 yr old season:

Patrice Bergeron: 31-42-73 (.90 ppg)
Vinny Lecavalier: 23-28-51 in 68 games (0.75 ppg)
Joe Thornton: 23-37-60 in 81 games (0.74 ppg)
Jason Spezza: 22-33-55 in 78 games (0.71 ppg)
Ryan O'Reilly: 18-37-55 in 81 games (0.68 ppg)
Ryan Getzlaf: 14-25-39 in 57 games (0.68 ppg)

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...t-ryan-oreilly

Some pretty piss poor company there. I'd have to imagine that none of those guys played the opponent's top offensive players during those seasons, either (maybe Bergeron). But let's keep *****ing about him scoring "only" 55 pts as a 20 yr old center in the NHL while playing elite competition.

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02-19-2013, 01:29 PM
  #459
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Oh I get it ROR comes onto our team and we instantly become a playoff team. Good one! Makes me LOL. This team is more than just one player away from contending. Is giving up the farm worth a player such as ROR? I don't think he is, especially with the cap hit he will want. Girgensons and Cat both project to be similar players, while they probably won't reach the level of ROR (Even though hes only had one stellar season, IE Leino) I see them as valuable assets that could develop into a very similar players to ROR.

All this ROR talk makes me sick, its everything this sub forum is talking about...He is being treated as the greatest thing since Gretzky, the over valuing of him is sickening. I cannot wait until he gets signed or traded so this can end! AGH!!

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02-19-2013, 01:35 PM
  #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
When did I ever compare Girgensons to ROR? I remember one exchange where you said that we have a scoring center in the system, in which I replied that there was also a defensive center in the system so your point didn't work. That's about the closest I've been to comparing them. Also, when did I compare Ennis to Briere? You're really reaching for comebacks here.

And I can use NHL.com stats. ROR -1, his linemate and major contributor to his success Gabe Landeskog, +20. Anyone can look good playing next to Gabe, who IS a players you win a cup with.
comparing to Briere
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1139869

comparing to St Louis
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1159059

Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Ennis is destined to be a superstar IMO. He played like one for the last 2 months. I think this is a case of a light going on for a player where he realizes he can be the best player on the ice every time. Hodgson will be very good, but I think Ennis can be great. He's going to be another Marty St. Louis, but he got there faster.
So, someone comparing a 21 yr old O'reilly (who just completed a FULL season as a dominant shut down top line center is something you would mock.... but comparing Ennis 2 month run producing a ton of offensive on a secondary scoring line is something you felt comfortable comparing to a super star scorer....

go ahead... starting wiggling

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02-19-2013, 01:38 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Oh I get it ROR comes onto our team and we instantly become a playoff team. Good one! Makes me LOL. This team is more than just one player away from contending. Is giving up the farm worth a player such as ROR? I don't think he is, especially with the cap hit he will want.
Well, he certainly puts other players in a better position to succeed. He can push FES (or have Grigs replace Foligno) into easier offensive minutes where they thrived last year. He can match up against the Girouxs and Crosbys (you know, the guy who was on the ice for all four of PIT's goals Sunday) every night. He makes us a much better team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Girgensons and Cat both project to be similar players, while they probably won't reach the level of ROR (Even though hes only had one stellar season, IE Leino) I see them as valuable assets that could develop into a very similar players to ROR.
Where are people getting this stuff? Catenacci is likely to be similar to ROR? Many observers think the guy is going to be a winger if he makes it to the NHL. And we're projecting Girgs to be like O'Reilly even though Girgs still hasn't played a professional game at center? And other people are making you sick??

Quote:
All this ROR talk makes me sick, its everything this sub forum is talking about...He is being treated as the greatest thing since Gretzky, the over valuing of him is sickening. I cannot wait until he gets signed or traded so this can end! AGH!!
It's terrible that people are making you read this thread and the posts about O'Reilly.

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02-19-2013, 01:39 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
Oh I get it ROR comes onto our team and we instantly become a playoff team. Good one! Makes me LOL. This team is more than just one player away from contending. Is giving up the farm worth a player such as ROR? I don't think he is, especially with the cap hit he will want. Girgensons and Cat both project to be similar players, while they probably won't reach the level of ROR (Even though hes only had one stellar season, IE Leino) I see them as valuable assets that could develop into a very similar players to ROR.

All this ROR talk makes me sick, its everything this sub forum is talking about...He is being treated as the greatest thing since Gretzky, the over valuing of him is sickening. I cannot wait until he gets signed or traded so this can end! AGH!!
this argument remains stupid.

let me show it to you in reverse

"the farm is going to make us a contender"

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02-19-2013, 01:40 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
comparing to Briere
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1139869

comparing to St Louis
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1159059



So, someone comparing a 21 yr old O'reilly (who just completed a FULL season as a dominant shut down top line center is something you would mock.... but comparing Ennis 2 month run producing a ton of offensive on a secondary scoring line is something you felt comfortable comparing to a super star scorer....

go ahead... starting wiggling
Stokes, you were comparing a then-22 year old with 13 games of playoff experience to a champion like St. Louis? Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

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02-19-2013, 01:42 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
So, I gett the Bergeron comparison and its an apt one. But Kopitar? Really? RoR is a good player, but Kopitar is a different beast entirely. Stoll is a much better comparison.
No.

Kopitar is better offensively and prolly always will be, but R'OR can play first line minutes against top competition and lead his team in scoring just like Kopitar. Stoll can not, has not, and will not accomplish anything close to what O'Reilly did last season.

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02-19-2013, 01:43 PM
  #465
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Stokes, you were comparing a then-22 year old with 13 games of playoff experience to a champion like St. Louis? Perhaps you should practice what you preach.
for the record, i did that without the assistance of the search function (stupid infractions)

There's probably a treasure trove

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02-19-2013, 01:46 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
this argument remains stupid.

let me show it to you in reverse

"the farm is going to make us a contender"
Yeah because every player in the NHL was not at one point "part of the farm"...

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02-19-2013, 01:47 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
for the record, i did that without the assistance of the search function (stupid infractions)

There's probably a treasure trove
For the record, you have too much time on your hands. Also for the record, Ennis is scoring at just slightly under a PPG right now, and most would agree he hasn't even hit his stride yet.

Also, I said that I think he can be as good, Jame is already saying he is as good or better. Not quite on the same level.


Last edited by stokes84: 02-19-2013 at 01:56 PM.
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02-19-2013, 01:47 PM
  #468
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Well, he certainly puts other players in a better position to succeed. He can push FES (or have Grigs replace Foligno) into easier offensive minutes where they thrived last year. He can match up against the Girouxs and Crosbys (you know, the guy who was on the ice for all four of PIT's goals Sunday) every night. He makes us a much better team.



Where are people getting this stuff? Catenacci is likely to be similar to ROR? Many observers think the guy is going to be a winger if he makes it to the NHL. And we're projecting Girgs to be like O'Reilly even though Girgs still hasn't played a professional game at center? And other people are making you sick??



It's terrible that people are making you read this thread and the posts about O'Reilly.
People were saying the same thing about ROR when he was "on the farm" right? And look at what he did...I watch a lot of Dan C, so I can tell you more about him than most. He projects very similar to his play style.

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02-19-2013, 01:54 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by Awwufelloff View Post
People were saying the same thing about ROR when he was "on the farm" right? And look at what he did...I watch a lot of Dan C, so I can tell you more about him than most. He projects very similar to his play style.
ROR was never on the farm. He was playing 3rd line minutes in Colorado as an 18 yr old, the same time at which Catenacci was forcing his way out of Soo because he couldn't beat out Nick Cousins for their 1C position.

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02-19-2013, 02:13 PM
  #470
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One more time..

Jonathan Toews playoff experience before the year they won the cup: 17 games
Jordan Staal the year before they went to the finals (2 years before they won): 5 games
Eric Staal: ZERO
Ryan Getzlaf: 16

It's not unprecedented, by a long shot. But again, no one is saying ROR would come in and lead them to a cup in their first year. It's not that difficult of an argument to follow here.

How many times do I have to provide concrete examples?

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02-19-2013, 02:13 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
For the record, you have too much time on your hands. Also for the record, Ennis is scoring at just slightly under a PPG right now, and most would agree he hasn't even hit his stride yet.

Also, I said that I think he can be as good, Jame is already saying he is as good or better. Not quite on the same level.
You said he's going to be "as good as St Louis"

You chided people who compared O'reilly to other top tier shut down players

your hypocrisy was pointed out... and now your dancing


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02-19-2013, 02:20 PM
  #472
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Right, because comparing a 21 year old kid with 6 total playoff games to champions and all-time greats shows my bias. You got me good. The hyperbole surrounding this kid is nauseating. You are attacking my credibility while making some of the most ridiculous, unfounded claims on these boards that I've seen. Take a look in the mirror.
mirror

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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Ennis is destined to be a superstar IMO. He played like one for the last 2 months. I think this is a case of a light going on for a player where he realizes he can be the best player on the ice every time. Hodgson will be very good, but I think Ennis can be great. He's going to be another Marty St. Louis, but he got there faster.
/end

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02-19-2013, 02:48 PM
  #473
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IMO, I wouldn't want to do player projections from our own team, because I feel our current coaching staff in the minors and up here doesnt have a good track record of developing players, and I feel our system we have in place shackles the team from any creativity.

I would like to see how Cody, Ennis, and Grigs and the rest of the young guys play under a new system. For all we know, we might have Three Superstars but we don't know it because we base it off of one constant that is Lindy's way of playing. I would like to see how these guys play in a system similar to Pittsburgh or Tampa.

O'Reily might be a very very good player, but if you put him on Buffalo's team right now, I think he fails miserably, and of course it would be really annoying to read how someone is doing better somewhere else and we shouldn't have traded for him.

At this point, I think we have done enough Player arranging and its time for a new set of eyes and ideas. Get rid of Lindy and clean the whole staff out in Rochester and here ASAP, sell off some assets, get some picks, and start working on going with a bigger, faster team. There is a place and on the team for Ennis. Thats why he works well with Stafford and Foligno.

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02-19-2013, 02:56 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
mirror



/end
I suppose it is regrettable that I wrote "going to be" instead of "can be" six months ago. Fortunately for you, your error was today, so you have plenty of time to fix it.

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02-19-2013, 02:59 PM
  #475
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IMO, I wouldn't want to do player projections from our own team, because I feel our current coaching staff in the minors and up here doesnt have a good track record of developing players, and I feel our system we have in place shackles the team from any creativity.

I would like to see how Cody, Ennis, and Grigs and the rest of the young guys play under a new system. For all we know, we might have Three Superstars but we don't know it because we base it off of one constant that is Lindy's way of playing. I would like to see how these guys play in a system similar to Pittsburgh or Tampa.

O'Reily might be a very very good player, but if you put him on Buffalo's team right now, I think he fails miserably, and of course it would be really annoying to read how someone is doing better somewhere else and we shouldn't have traded for him.

At this point, I think we have done enough Player arranging and its time for a new set of eyes and ideas. Get rid of Lindy and clean the whole staff out in Rochester and here ASAP, sell off some assets, get some picks, and start working on going with a bigger, faster team. There is a place and on the team for Ennis. Thats why he works well with Stafford and Foligno.
Do you just think that because it fits the narrative you are trying to tell... or were you going to back it up with something substantive? Llike maybe referencing how cerebral 2 way centers have always been successful in Ruff's system (CuBro, Peca, Drury)

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