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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:03 PM
  #476
Jame
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I suppose it is regrettable that I wrote "going to be" instead of "can be" six months ago. Fortunately for you, your error was today, so you have plenty of time to fix it.
you don't have to regret your semantics, you should regret being a massive hypocrite for calling out someone elses player comparison's, when you've done the exact same thing.

I don't know what error of mine you are talking about. I don't have a problem with player comparisons, you do (unless you are the one making the comparison, of course)

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02-19-2013, 02:04 PM
  #477
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My final point re: Grigerenko vs O'Reilly.

Fair or unfair, Grigerenko hasn't gotten a true 'opportunity' to prove himself yet. He's gotten some PP time here or there and he's made his fair share of mistakes. However, he hasn't been allowed to find his game. He's on a short leash. I'm hoping the coaches are working with him every day to show him what he has to do to earn and keep ice time on this team. However, all of that doesn't change his skill level or potential.

All that being said, Grigerenko is 18. Not 22, 18. He's a kid. And has been moved from dominating Jrs to being dominated at times in the NHL. He's kept his chin up, he hasn't complained at how the coaching staff has treated him, and at every point he's been mature and kept his cool. That is a guy I want on my team.

Ryan O'Reilly is a great player. A player, on the ice, I want on my team. For those playing the Mike Richards card.....Ryan O'Reilly is not Mike Richards. Sure, he MIGHT be, in the same way Grigerenko MIGHT be a franchise centerman. LA traded their best young prospect because, guess what, they already had Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown, and Drew Doughty. They had made the playoffs the last 3 years. We've missed the playoffs 3 out of the last 5, likely 4 out of 6.

The LA Kings made a bold move to get what was the missing piece for a team ready to take the next step. RoR isn't mike Richards, and we aren't the LA Kings two summers ago. The trade Schenn/Grigerenko parallel just isn't correct because the teams are in very very different spots. As the Sabres stand, I'd love to get RoR. We've got lots of young talented forwards to dangle. However, I'm not going to give up Grigerenko to get him.

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02-19-2013, 02:07 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
My final point re: Grigerenko vs O'Reilly.

Fair or unfair, Grigerenko hasn't gotten a true 'opportunity' to prove himself yet. He's gotten some PP time here or there and he's made his fair share of mistakes. However, he hasn't been allowed to find his game. He's on a short leash. I'm hoping the coaches are working with him every day to show him what he has to do to earn and keep ice time on this team. However, all of that doesn't change his skill level or potential.

All that being said, Grigerenko is 18. Not 22, 18. He's a kid. And has been moved from dominating Jrs to being dominated at times in the NHL. He's kept his chin up, he hasn't complained at how the coaching staff has treated him, and at every point he's been mature and kept his cool. That is a guy I want on my team.

Ryan O'Reilly is a great player. A player, on the ice, I want on my team. For those playing the Mike Richards card.....Ryan O'Reilly is not Mike Richards. Sure, he MIGHT be, in the same way Grigerenko MIGHT be a franchise centerman. LA traded their best young prospect because, guess what, they already had Anze Kopitar, Dustin Brown, and Drew Doughty. They had made the playoffs the last 3 years. We've missed the playoffs 3 out of the last 5, likely 4 out of 6.

The LA Kings made a bold move to get what was the missing piece for a team ready to take the next step. RoR isn't mike Richards, and we aren't the LA Kings two summers ago. The trade Schenn/Grigerenko parallel just isn't correct because the teams are in very very different spots. As the Sabres stand, I'd love to get RoR. We've got lots of young talented forwards to dangle. However, I'm not going to give up Grigerenko to get him.
O'reilly is like 80-90% of the way to being Mike Richards
Girgorenko is 0% of the way to being Joe Thornton

(you also don't seem to be considering Hodgson as a serious potential franchise #1... at least not in the same manner as you are considering Grigs... even though Hodgson is scoring at near a pt per game pace in his first year as a top 6 forward)

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02-19-2013, 02:14 PM
  #479
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Who are the top 10 under the following criteria
- Top 6 Center
- 2 way play
- Playmaking
- Shutdown responsibility

I can't make a top 10 that doesn't include O'reilly.

Bergeron, Toews, Fisher, Datsyuk, Kesler, Jordan, Backes, Richards, Mikko, Oreilly

That's it... those are the centers I want on the ice against Crsoby, Giroux, etc in the 3rd period of game 7 with a 1 goal lead.

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02-19-2013, 02:20 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Who are the top 10 under the following criteria
- Top 6 Center
- 2 way play
- Playmaking
- Shutdown responsibility

I can't make a top 10 that doesn't include O'reilly.

Bergeron, Toews, Fisher, Datsyuk, Kesler, Jordan, Backes, Richards, Mikko, Oreilly

That's it... those are the centers I want on the ice against Crsoby, Giroux, etc in the 3rd period of game 7 with a 1 goal lead.
I'd put Kopitar in there, as well. Many of the advanced stat guys thought he should win the Selke last season. Higher qualcomp than Richards and way better possession numbers, albeit with higher O-zone starts.

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:29 PM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
O'reilly is like 80-90% of the way to being Mike Richards
Girgorenko is 0% of the way to being Joe Thornton

(you also don't seem to be considering Hodgson as a serious potential franchise #1... at least not in the same manner as you are considering Grigs... even though Hodgson is scoring at near a pt per game pace in his first year as a top 6 forward)
Mike Richards scored 75 points in his 3rd season. RoR scored 50.

The comparison just isn't there. Richards is your ideal 2nd line center on a cup winning team. RoR COULD be Mike Richards-esque, but to claim his 90% of the way there when his career high in points is 55 is a bit silly.

And on Hodgson: I see him rounding out into a good #2. He seriously lacks defensive awareness which, IMHO, is going to keep him out of the 'franchise centerman' category, for now at least.

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02-19-2013, 02:39 PM
  #482
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Simply comparing Richards's third season with O'Reilly's straight up like that is kind of disingenuous since O'Reilly was the same age last year (his third season) as Richards was when he was a rookie.

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02-19-2013, 02:42 PM
  #483
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I could live with Grigs getting traded for O'Reilly

Primarily due to the fact that we would STILL have an incredibly talented group of young NHL centers; Hodgson, O'Reilly and Ennis. Plus prospects in the pool like Sundher, Girgs, Cat, Kea and Adam.

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02-19-2013, 02:46 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by dotcommunism View Post
Simply comparing Richards's third season with O'Reilly's straight up like that is kind of disingenuous since O'Reilly was the same age last year (his third season) as Richards was when he was a rookie.
Disingenuous in what way? Who's being prejudiced?

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02-19-2013, 02:52 PM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Disingenuous in what way? Who's being prejudiced?
Well he explained why and he's right. ROR's still a kid in his 3rd season, it's not really fair or relevant to compare it to someone else's 3rd season.

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02-19-2013, 02:56 PM
  #486
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Well he explained why and he's right. ROR's still a kid in his 3rd season, it's not really fair or relevant to compare it to someone else's 3rd season.
My bad, I didn't see Doak's post that he was responding to because he didn't quote it.

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02-19-2013, 02:57 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Mike Richards scored 75 points in his 3rd season. RoR scored 50.

The comparison just isn't there. Richards is your ideal 2nd line center on a cup winning team. RoR COULD be Mike Richards-esque, but to claim his 90% of the way there when his career high in points is 55 is a bit silly.


And on Hodgson: I see him rounding out into a good #2. He seriously lacks defensive awareness which, IMHO, is going to keep him out of the 'franchise centerman' category, for now at least.
Age comparisons are more apt. Can't compare what a guy did at 22/23 to what a different player did at 20/21.

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02-19-2013, 03:13 PM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Age comparisons are more apt. Can't compare what a guy did at 22/23 to what a different player did at 20/21.
Maybe, but this 21 year old insists on being paid like he's done it before, so he should be treated as such.

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Old
02-19-2013, 03:16 PM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Mike Richards scored 75 points in his 3rd season. RoR scored 50.

The comparison just isn't there. Richards is your ideal 2nd line center on a cup winning team. RoR COULD be Mike Richards-esque, but to claim his 90% of the way there when his career high in points is 55 is a bit silly.

And on Hodgson: I see him rounding out into a good #2. He seriously lacks defensive awareness which, IMHO, is going to keep him out of the 'franchise centerman' category, for now at least.
What they did at the same age is a better comparison


Richards

at 18yrs old ---> still in juniors
at 19yrs old ---> still in juniors
at 20yrs old ---> 79gms 11g 23a 34pts (15:22 atoi)

O'Reilly

at 18yrs old ---> 81gms 8g 18a 26pts (16:45)
at 19yrs old ---> 74gms 13g 13a 26pts (16:03)
at 20yrs old ---> 81gms 18g 37a 55pts (19:31)


3 NHL seasons after getting drafted RoR had 236gms in the NHL under his belt to Richards' 79gms at the same point.

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02-19-2013, 03:21 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
What they did at the same age is a better comparison


Richards

at 18yrs old ---> still in juniors
at 19yrs old ---> still in juniors
at 20yrs old ---> 79gms 11g 23a 34pts (15:22 atoi)

O'Reilly

at 18yrs old ---> 81gms 8g 18a 26pts (16:45)
at 19yrs old ---> 74gms 13g 13a 26pts (16:03)
at 20yrs old ---> 81gms 18g 37a 55pts (19:31)


3 years after getting drafted RoR had 236gms in the NHL under his belt to Richards' 79gms at the same point.
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.

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02-19-2013, 03:26 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Maybe, but this 21 year old insists on being paid like he's done it before, so he should be treated as such.
Stokes...what is your solution...If ROR is too much money who should we be targeting?

I can only see one other counter argument...That would be to say that this team simply needs to rebuild from scratch and look to unload those remaining pieces of the "old guard" for top prospects and picks...guys like Miller, Stafford, Vanek, Pommers, along with Leo and Regehr. Then build around Grigs and Girgs, Armia, Myers, Hodgson, Sekera, Ennis, Pysyk, MacNabb and Folingo.

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02-19-2013, 03:26 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
The problem is you've set up a false argument. Mike Richards was never a 75pt player on a Cup winning team. He was a 44pt center on a Cup winning team. Its also missing the point. O'Reilly is one of the best shutdown centers in the game NOW and will put up offense in that role. In that regard he is already well on his way to being Mike Richards. Thats why Mike Richards is so valued. Plus on the Sabres, if Ennis and Hodgson are still here he won't be asked to proved a ton of offense anyway.

Jame's point is RoR is well on his way to being Richards and Grigs is no where near being a franchise center at this point. He has a long way to go to be a top 6 center.

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02-19-2013, 03:28 PM
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
He was a first line center last season, so why does he have to be a 3rd line center?

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02-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
ROR led the avs in scoring last year. He was #1 amongst all forwards in terms of ice time per game. Corsi QoC was #1 on the team amongst forwards with > 20 games.

In what reality was ROR a 3rd line center?

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02-19-2013, 03:30 PM
  #495
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I forgot to add O'Reilly came in 14th in Selke voting last year as a 20 year old.

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02-19-2013, 03:31 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
he wasen't Colorado's 3rd liner center, I believe he was their 1st. Duchene is the best center on that team but had an off year. RoR is easily better than Stastny.

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02-19-2013, 03:32 PM
  #497
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I'd put Kopitar in there, as well. Many of the advanced stat guys thought he should win the Selke last season. Higher qualcomp than Richards and way better possession numbers, albeit with higher O-zone starts.
I don't know where he finished in voting. I know it wasn't top 3... which was just....wrong.

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02-19-2013, 03:35 PM
  #498
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I don't know where he finished in voting. I know it wasn't top 3... which was just....wrong.
He was 9th.

http://thenhlhotlist.azvibe.com/2012...oting-results/


Quote:
(1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Patrice Bergeron, BOS 1,312 (106-30-6-4-0)
2. David Backes, STL 698 (24-46-15-17-10)
3. Pavel Datsyuk, DET 553 (8-30-38-21-10)
4. Ryan Callahan, NYR 326 (6-11-22-22-13)
5. Ryan Kesler, VAN 152 (1-3-14-13-12)
6. Jonathan Toews, CHI 117 (1-2-8-13-14)
7. Mike Fisher, NSH 72 (0-3-6-6-3)
8. Jordan Staal, PIT 67 (0-1-6-7-9)
9. Anze Kopitar, L.A. 62 (0-3-4-4-9)
10. Patrick Sharp, CHI 52 (0-2-5-4-1)
11. Joe Pavelski, S.J. 44 (0-3-0-5-8)
12. Ray Whitney, PHX 36 (0-4-1-1-0)
13. Pascal Dupuis, PIT 28 (1-0-2-2-2)
14. Ryan O’Reilly, COL 27 (0-1-1-3-6)
15. Tomas Plekanec, MTL 25 (0-1-3-1-0)
16. Chris Kelly, BOS 23 (0-1-1-3-2)
17. Marian Hossa, CHI 23 (0-0-2-2-7)
18. Zach Parise, N.J. 18 (0-1-1-2-0)
19. Patrik Elias, N.J. 15 (0-0-0-5-0)
20. Maxime Talbot, PHI 13 (1-0-0-1-0)
On that list the only two players anywhere near RoR (20) in age are Staal (23) and Kopitar (24).

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02-19-2013, 03:36 PM
  #499
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ROR led the avs in scoring last year. He was #1 amongst all forwards in terms of ice time per game. Corsi QoC was #1 on the team amongst forwards with > 20 games.

In what reality was ROR a 3rd line center?
ya, but Ennis is better.

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02-19-2013, 03:38 PM
  #500
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I don't know where he finished in voting. I know it wasn't top 3... which was just....wrong.
I wanted the Canucks to draft him so bad in 2005. Bourdon (RIP) was a promising selection but never had the upside of Kopitar.

Mind you, going into 2005 offense was not an issue and both top six centers Morrison and H. Sedin were Vancouver property for at least 3 more seasons. So I can understand why Nonis drafted who he did.

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