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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-19-2013, 03:39 PM
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
Stokes...what is your solution...If ROR is too much money who should we be targeting?

I can only see one other counter argument...That would be to say that this team simply needs to rebuild from scratch and look to unload those remaining pieces of the "old guard" for top prospects and picks...guys like Miller, Stafford, Vanek, Pommers, along with Leo and Regehr. Then build around Grigs and Girgs, Armia, Myers, Hodgson, Sekera, Ennis, Pysyk, MacNabb and Folingo.
ROR is the flavor of the month because he is publicly available. For the right price, I'd be thrilled to have him, but the offers in this thread have been way over the top IMO. Personally, I feel they need to work on the defense more than anything. It's hard to tell who we should target with only one guy on the market publicly, and I understand the feeding frenzy because he would give us a needed player, but it's not worth gutting us for him.

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02-19-2013, 03:39 PM
  #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Mike Richards scored 75 points in his 3rd season. RoR scored 50.

At 20 years old, Richards scored 34 points, Oreilly scored 55

Advanced stats show that Oreilly was the better 2 way forward in the seasons you are comparing as well. I'd list them, but it seems like you are headed to the dark side (denial of advanced stats when they don't fit your opinion)


Quote:
The comparison just isn't there. Richards is your ideal 2nd line center on a cup winning team. RoR COULD be Mike Richards-esque, but to claim his 90% of the way there when his career high in points is 55 is a bit silly.
Your right, it's more like 95%


Quote:
And on Hodgson: I see him rounding out into a good #2. He seriously lacks defensive awareness which, IMHO, is going to keep him out of the 'franchise centerman' category, for now at least.
and yet, Grigorenko makes the franchise centerman category... interesting, i guess you are impressed with his defensive awareness

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02-19-2013, 03:40 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center. Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
I think ROR could be a franchise cornerstone. But I also agree I wouldn't trade Grigorenko for him. We have tons of other pieces that the Avs should/could have interest in that we could package, and I feel much more confident about having a solid line-up down the middle in the future if we keep Grigs. Without him, we're putting all our 1C chips in the Hodgson basket. Plus the Avs still have Stastny and Duchene -- it's not like they're hurting for a center to replace ROR. What they probably want is a package containing one NHL winger/d-man and one good prospect winger/d-man, and maybe some extra throw-ins, ie: depth d-man, picks as needed.

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02-19-2013, 03:41 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
ROR is the flavor of the month because he is publicly available. For the right price, I'd be thrilled to have him, but the offers in this thread have been way over the top IMO. Personally, I feel they need to work on the defense more than anything.
Is there a defenseman available you would like them to target?

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02-19-2013, 03:42 PM
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
ROR is the flavor of the month because he is publicly available. For the right price, I'd be thrilled to have him, but the offers in this thread have been way over the top IMO. Personally, I feel they need to work on the defense more than anything.


Thats what adding O'Reilly would do. We do need to add at least one better defensive top 4 dmen as well but that doesn't mean you don't add the best young defensive center in the league.

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02-19-2013, 03:43 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
Is there a defenseman available you would like them to target?
I want them to target yandle while he's available

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02-19-2013, 03:45 PM
  #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Doesn't matter. Until he proves he can provide offense at a high level, he's not "90% to Mike Richards" as Jame stated earlier in this thread. Currently RoR is a 3rd line, very good defensive center.

Sure, he MIGHT be as good as Mike Richards, but that is just as much conjecture as Grigerenko MIGHT be a #1 center some day. RoR is a good player, I like him. I'm just not trading an 18 year old player who was ranked #2 in the draft at the midpoint last year. If I'm trading Grigerenko its part of a package for a franchise cornerstone. Nothing less.
WTF are you talking about?
- Led his team in ice time (forwards)
- played all situations
- Led his team in scoring

How can you compare the conjecture of projecting a 3 year NHLer and an 18 yr old prospect with a few games under his belt?

You are trying to say that they still have the same amount to prove, and it's just a completely stupid assertion.

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02-19-2013, 03:45 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post


Thats what adding O'Reilly would do. We do need to add at least one better defensive top 4 dmen as well but that doesn't mean you don't add the best young defensive center in the league.
Well, you see, in NHL13 ... The only good forwards are the ones that score a lot of points. And the defenseman must score a lot of points and play top notch defense. Any other attribute isn't important.

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02-19-2013, 03:47 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
He was 9th.

http://thenhlhotlist.azvibe.com/2012...oting-results/




On that list the only two players anywhere near RoR (20) in age are Staal (23) and Kopitar (24).

sorry, i was talking about Oreilly.... surprised he was only 14th... that's crazy.

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02-19-2013, 03:49 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I think ROR could be a franchise cornerstone. But I also agree I wouldn't trade Grigorenko for him. We have tons of other pieces that the Avs should/could have interest in that we could package, and I feel much more confident about having a solid line-up down the middle in the future if we keep Grigs. Without him, we're putting all our 1C chips in the Hodgson basket. Plus the Avs still have Stastny and Duchene -- it's not like they're hurting for a center to replace ROR. What they probably want is a package containing one NHL winger/d-man and one good prospect winger/d-man, and maybe some extra throw-ins, ie: depth d-man, picks as needed.
me too... in the same way Toews is.

(you don't have to be an elite scorer, to be a franchise cornerstone)

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02-19-2013, 03:49 PM
  #511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
At 20 years old, Richards scored 34 points, Oreilly scored 55

Advanced stats show that Oreilly was the better 2 way forward in the seasons you are comparing as well. I'd list them, but it seems like you are headed to the dark side (denial of advanced stats when they don't fit your opinion)
I don't see the need to get personal here. I really don't.

Quote:
and yet, Grigorenko makes the franchise centerman category... interesting, i guess you are impressed with his defensive awareness
Grigerenko is 18 and played less than 15 games. So we don't know yet. Hodgson is 23 and played in 107 NHL games. I *think* we could make a MUCH more educated guess about Hodgson's defensive play than Grigerenko. Or should I use ADVANCED STATS.

I'd love to get RoR. Just because I'm not in the "OMG LETS TRADE EVERYTHING FOR HIM" group doesn't make me unreasonable fact denying buffoon.

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02-19-2013, 03:52 PM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I don't see the need to get personal here. I really don't.



Grigerenko is 18 and played less than 15 games. So we don't know yet. Hodgson is 23 and played in 107 NHL games. I *think* we could make a MUCH more educated guess about Hodgson's defensive play than Grigerenko.
Or should I use ADVANCED STATS.

I'd love to get RoR. Just because I'm not in the "OMG LETS TRADE EVERYTHING FOR HIM" group doesn't make me unreasonable fact denying buffoon.
you realize how much this contradicts with how you previously applied the "maybe" criteria equally to Oreilly/Grigorenko


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02-19-2013, 03:53 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I want them to target yandle while he's available
What do you offer Phoenix?

I would also ask what your time frame is to contend for a Stanley Cup. Adding Yandle still does not address our lack of center depth and you could be looking at 3 to 4 seasons before Grigs and Girgs are ready for prime time. Over that time period you have a whole wack load of important players potentially hitting UFA who need a pretty strong reason to sign with a semi-rebuilding, losing team. With the CAP coming down you also lose the leverage of having a wealthy owner who can spend potential problems away.

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02-19-2013, 03:55 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Maybe, but this 21 year old insists on being paid like he's done it before, so he should be treated as such.
Smurf in a Blender, an admitted Avs and Sabres fan, has suggested on several occasions that the demands floating around the media ($4m on a 2yr contract, $5m on a long-term deal taking him past UFA eligibility) may not be what he demands if and when he's traded. I think everyone agree that the Avs/O'Reilly negotiations got personal and soured quickly. ROR was upset he was not named captain, and it seemingly spiraled from there.

Would you really be upset if we acquired him and gave him a 2yr/$8m ($4m cap) deal? I'd say that is pretty fair for a guy coming off a 55-point season and who finished in the top-15 of Selke voting at his young age.

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02-19-2013, 03:55 PM
  #515
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I have not watched ROR with the same microscope that folks on this thread obviously have. The cynic in me reminds me of too damn many guys with one good year getting overpaid. ROR may well be the superstar many on this board think. But I do not see the savvy GMs in the league offering sheeting him with multi year deals with $5 million plus deals. This paragon as portrayed on these boards ought to be worth the 2 or 3 first round picks he would cost - first line 2 way centre capable of shutting down the opposition, leading the team in scoring and able to play for 10 or 15 years? If he is not signing in Colorado are we to believe his agent has not talked (let slip) what he wants and where he would go? His own team will not give him the money or he does not want to play there. Signing an offersheet that Colorado thinks is too much lets them off the hook. Or else they then work out a deal--no point letting a valuable asset sit and get nothing-that manager would be fired. So no GM is prepared to take the chance and pay what many on this board would do in a heartbeat.?

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02-19-2013, 03:58 PM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I *think* we could make a MUCH more educated guess about Hodgson's defensive play than Grigerenko. Or should I use ADVANCED STATS.
I'm not so sure that you could anymore

Quote:
I'd love to get RoR. Just because I'm not in the "OMG LETS TRADE EVERYTHING FOR HIM" group doesn't make me unreasonable fact denying buffoon.
That group is a myth... there is a group that understands that we have 3 offensive centers at various stages of development. And that the PROVEN abilities O'reilly has are in super short supply and absolutely critical to playoff success.

80+ point centers are very rare
The ability to shutdown 80+ point players on a nightly basis (while not being inept offensively) is just as rare, and just as valuable

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02-19-2013, 04:07 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Who are the top 10 under the following criteria
- Top 6 Center
- 2 way play
- Playmaking
- Shutdown responsibility

I can't make a top 10 that doesn't include O'reilly.

Bergeron, Toews, Fisher, Datsyuk, Kesler, Jordan, Backes, Richards, Mikko, Oreilly

That's it... those are the centers I want on the ice against Crsoby, Giroux, etc in the 3rd period of game 7 with a 1 goal lead.
I'm taking everyone else you listed plus Zajac, Zetterberg, Kopitar and Giroux over Fisher without thinking twice, given these and virtually any other criteria.

Of the rest of that expanded list, O'Reilly has arguments against Staal, Richards (the current one one, who isn't actually his team's best defensive player, and isn't from three and four years ago) and Zajac to possibly sneak into the top ten. He's also probably better defensively than Giroux is.

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02-19-2013, 04:41 PM
  #518
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post


Thats what adding O'Reilly would do. We do need to add at least one better defensive top 4 dmen as well but that doesn't mean you don't add the best young defensive center in the league.
Not really sure what the need for is. He asked me my priorities, and I say what I bolded over ROR, which you agree is a need. Soooo.....?

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02-19-2013, 04:43 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Not really sure what the need for is. He asked me my priorities, and I say what I bolded over ROR, which you agree is a need. Soooo.....?
We need both in equal measure and both will improve the defense.

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02-19-2013, 04:45 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
oh my god....
Apparently this guy is WD-40 and duct tape to you. Will fix everything. Sorry, the blue line is a much bigger concern on this team than another center, IMO. Also, credit for another very useful response.

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02-19-2013, 05:04 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Apparently this guy is WD-40 and duct tape to you. Will fix everything. Sorry, the blue line is a much bigger concern on this team than another center, IMO. Also, credit for another very useful response.
funny how awful our blueline looks this year with the downgrade at center defensively, compared to last year

Oreilly makes us much better defensively
He makes our blueline better

same blueline... you can compare the GA per 60 for our defensemen for yourself

you get a facepalm, because you dont get it... blind

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02-19-2013, 05:17 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
WTF are you talking about?
- Led his team in ice time (forwards)
- played all situations
- Led his team in scoring


How can you compare the conjecture of projecting a 3 year NHLer and an 18 yr old prospect with a few games under his belt?

You are trying to say that they still have the same amount to prove, and it's just a completely stupid assertion.
Point #1. Despite ALL you just said......his team missed the playoffs. Ryan O'Reilly. Great player, could be part of a core of a team. But. He's. Not. A. Franchise. Player.

Point #2 is similar to the previous. If he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, why in the WORLD are the avs even CONSIDERING trading this guy. The team who have PA Parenteau 4 million a year isn't going to pony up to keep all everything center Ryan O'Reilly? Either the Avs are historically stupid or something isn't right.

I'm done with this silliness. I like O'Reilly. I'd pay alot to get him. But not at the cost of Grigerenko. Sorry.

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02-19-2013, 05:27 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Point #1. Despite ALL you just said......his team missed the playoffs. Ryan O'Reilly. Great player, could be part of a core of a team. But. He's. Not. A. Franchise. Player.
ryan miller, thomas vanek...


Quote:
Point #2 is similar to the previous. If he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, why in the WORLD are the avs even CONSIDERING trading this guy. The team who have PA Parenteau 4 million a year isn't going to pony up to keep all everything center Ryan O'Reilly? Either the Avs are historically stupid or something isn't right.
its complicated... try reading about

Quote:

I'm done with this silliness. I like O'Reilly. I'd pay alot to get him.
But not at the cost of Grigerenko. Sorry.
that's standard HockeysFuture silliness

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02-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Point #1. Despite ALL you just said......his team missed the playoffs. Ryan O'Reilly. Great player, could be part of a core of a team. But. He's. Not. A. Franchise. Player.

Point #2 is similar to the previous. If he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, why in the WORLD are the avs even CONSIDERING trading this guy. The team who have PA Parenteau 4 million a year isn't going to pony up to keep all everything center Ryan O'Reilly? Either the Avs are historically stupid or something isn't right.

I'm done with this silliness. I like O'Reilly. I'd pay alot to get him. But not at the cost of Grigerenko. Sorry.
I'm not saying he is or isn't a franchise player, but arguing that someone isn't because his team didn't make the playoffs is silly. AFAIK basically every franchise player has missed the playoffs.

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02-19-2013, 06:01 PM
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Point #1. Despite ALL you just said......his team missed the playoffs. Ryan O'Reilly. Great player, could be part of a core of a team. But. He's. Not. A. Franchise. Player.

Point #2 is similar to the previous. If he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, why in the WORLD are the avs even CONSIDERING trading this guy. The team who have PA Parenteau 4 million a year isn't going to pony up to keep all everything center Ryan O'Reilly? Either the Avs are historically stupid or something isn't right.

I'm done with this silliness. I like O'Reilly. I'd pay alot to get him. But not at the cost of Grigerenko. Sorry.
Point 1: By your criteria, neither are John Tavares or Steven Stamkos.

Point 2: Avs are trying to maintain a salary structure. They've got Duchense and Landeskog coming up. If they blow the bank wide open for O'Reilly, they're going to have to do the same for those two, since all three are RFAs.

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