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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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Old
02-15-2013, 04:08 PM
  #176
Jame
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
You absolutely have to weigh both. When you are buying a house, do you bargain from how much you want the house, or do you attempt to find out as much about the seller as possible in to try to get the best deal you can?

If they want to hold onto him with the understanding hell never play there again, that's fine. But it's worth testing them.
Depends... how much do you love the house? How many other suitors/offers are there? If the house is everything you ever wanted... and you have an upper limit of what you can spend, would you make a low ball offer, and allow for another offer to come in and scoop up your dream house?

Maybe you can low ball, and learn about the other offers... maybe... or maybe someone else comes in with a blow them away/take it or leave it offer. They take it... and you lose your dream house because you wanted to bargain, instead of putting your best offer forward.

I bought my dream house.

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02-15-2013, 04:10 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Moskau View Post
The fact that so many posters around here didn't even know who RoR was prior to a few days ago is why I can only respect what 5 or so people think about our own team. I mean he was a pretty huge story in his rookie season when he was one of the better defensive forwards in the league... as an 18 year old.
It's clear as day who the uninformed are

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02-15-2013, 04:10 PM
  #178
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Any negotiation begins with the seller asking for maximum value, while the potential buyer counters with the lowball offer he thinks he can get away with, without pissing off the seller and putting an end to negotiations. After some give and take the two generally settle for fair market value. The exception to the rule is if there are multiple buyers in the equation and then the product can conceivably bring a higher than market return, such as you see at every trade deadline and free agency period.

If I'm the Avs GM, I'm not moving him until the trade deadline when his value will be highest or at the draft when the teams that didn't acquire their shiny new toy in free agency will be more apt to break the bank on a product they think will be a difference maker.

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02-15-2013, 04:12 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
Any negotiation begins with the seller asking for maximum value, while the potential buyer counters with the lowball offer he thinks he can get away with, without pissing off the seller and putting an end to negotiations. After some give and take the two generally settle for fair market value. The exception to the rule is if there are multiple buyers in the equation and then the product can conceivably bring a higher than market return, such as you see at every trade deadline and free agency period.

If I'm the Avs GM, I'm not moving him until the trade deadline when his value will be highest or at the draft when the teams that didn't acquire their shiny new toy in free agency will be more apt to break the bank on a product they think will be a difference maker.
I would question the perceived trade deadline value of a player who hasn't played at all

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02-15-2013, 04:14 PM
  #180
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I would question the perceived trade deadline value of a player who hasn't played at all
As would I, however as seen in the Peca trade someone will break the bank to get a young player that they will have for an extended amount of time. You would hope that any rust would be knocked out after a few games and you have a set of fresh legs to play that shutdown role for an extended playoff run.

**Not that Peca was moved at the deadline, but in that a young player after an extended holdout is worth a ton to the 'right' team**


Last edited by Old Navy Goat: 02-15-2013 at 04:15 PM. Reason: part in **
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Old
02-15-2013, 04:18 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
If I'm the Avs GM, I'm not moving him until the trade deadline when his value will be highest or at the draft when the teams that didn't acquire their shiny new toy in free agency will be more apt to break the bank on a product they think will be a difference maker.
The draft isn't still before the start of free agency?

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Old
02-15-2013, 04:27 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Hasek View Post
Why would anyone offer Ennis for him? Especially since he's demanding so much money. tsujimoto74 described it perfectly. Colorado's in a situation where they're either wasting an asset or trading him, and something is better than nothing. I'd offer a 2nd rounder for him or maybe Luke Adam.

Fun fact. According to Hockey Reference Ryan O'Reilly's has a career similarity score of 93.1 with Ville Leino.
Ennis is a good, young player, but he's not a central part of a contender. O'Reilly fills the #2 two way center position, which is a central part of a contender. If you can make that move, you do.

It's nothing against Ennis - I like him a lot. And the Sabres could win a Cup with Ennis on the roster and playing a big role. But he'll do it with O'Reilly, or someone like him, on the roster.

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02-15-2013, 04:43 PM
  #183
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I think Darcy tries to pull off a big deal for someone sooner rather than later, this team could very well be dead in the water come the deadline and Darcy knows he and his BF could be in trouble.

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Old
02-15-2013, 04:54 PM
  #184
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I liked Ennis quite a lot as a prospect and still do somewhat but he's a tricky player to assess. I'm not sure he has anything more than 60 point potential on a consistent basis. That's good and all if we want to use him as a speedy dynamic winger but we already have Hodgson who also projects as a 60 point center and Grigorenko who projects in the 60-80 point range. Having a small, soft center with very little tangibles outside of being fast and stick handling isn't making me excited for the future. This isn't even a RoR vs Ennis debate it's me wondering how long Ennis as a center will last going down the road. Honestly I'd much rather see Grigorenko feeding Ennis saucer passes for breakaways and two on ones in 2 years than watching Ennis try to make Drew Stafford a good Hockey player.

If there was a way to keep Ennis on the team to be used as a winger again down the road and still get RoR then sign me up. But I don't think it will happen that way.

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02-15-2013, 05:00 PM
  #185
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We won't get him cheap, it doesnt matter that they have to trade him, there will be a bidding war and he'll get a good return

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02-15-2013, 05:00 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Not sure how to link a tweet, but Dater tweeted something about how the Rangers wouldn't pay ROR either. As I've been saying, these proposals are way over-valuing a kid who wants too much money. There is a chance he has no value. If a team that has the deepest pockets in the league wouldn't pay him, you can imagine that most, if not all small money teams would balk at his demands as well.
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Why would NYR overpay for him? They have Callahan, Richards, Gaborik, Nash, Stepan, Kreider....

NYR wants him just because they want anyone that makes them better. Doesn't mean they'd be willing to give up the required assets nor does them having "the deepest pockets in the league" really matter here.
The Rags are notoriously stingy when it comes to second contracts. My cousin is a Rags fan, and he's convinced that Sather was trying to move Dubi ever since his contract spat with the Rangers. Also, just look at the second contracts they give out. Sather saves the insanity for the UFAs.


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Originally Posted by Moskau View Post
I liked Ennis quite a lot as a prospect and still do somewhat but he's a tricky player to assess. I'm not sure he has anything more than 60 point potential on a consistent basis. That's good and all if we want to use him as a speedy dynamic winger but we already have Hodgson who also projects as a 60 point center and Grigorenko who projects in the 60-80 point range. Having a small, soft center with very little tangibles outside of being fast and stick handling isn't making me excited for the future. This isn't even a RoR vs Ennis debate it's me wondering how long Ennis as a center will last going down the road. Honestly I'd much rather see Grigorenko feeding Ennis saucer passes for breakaways and two on ones in 2 years than watching Ennis try to make Drew Stafford a good Hockey player.

If there was a way to keep Ennis on the team to be used as a winger again down the road and still get RoR then sign me up. But I don't think it will happen that way.
Well, there is the offer sheet.

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02-15-2013, 05:02 PM
  #187
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Stafford would be a great asset to deal if it wasn't for the putrid start he is having right now. I'm not sure how much his poor play so far affects his trade value around the league.

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Old
02-15-2013, 05:14 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Moskau View Post
I liked Ennis quite a lot as a prospect and still do somewhat but he's a tricky player to assess. I'm not sure he has anything more than 60 point potential on a consistent basis. That's good and all if we want to use him as a speedy dynamic winger but we already have Hodgson who also projects as a 60 point center and Grigorenko who projects in the 60-80 point range. Having a small, soft center with very little tangibles outside of being fast and stick handling isn't making me excited for the future. This isn't even a RoR vs Ennis debate it's me wondering how long Ennis as a center will last going down the road. Honestly I'd much rather see Grigorenko feeding Ennis saucer passes for breakaways and two on ones in 2 years than watching Ennis try to make Drew Stafford a good Hockey player.

If there was a way to keep Ennis on the team to be used as a winger again down the road and still get RoR then sign me up. But I don't think it will happen that way.
I agree with you. Ennis' future is at wing, so if you can parlay him into a long-term center, you jump at the chance. And he's not going to be an elite, 80-point wing, either. A 60-point, small left wing is still a nice asset to have, but it's nothing irreplaceable or worth jumping up and down over. So if Regier has the chance to use Ennis as a chip, particularly for a guy like O'Reilly, DO IT.

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Old
02-15-2013, 05:24 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Have My Baby Pierre View Post
Stafford would be a great asset to deal if it wasn't for the putrid start he is having right now. I'm not sure how much his poor play so far affects his trade value around the league.
I tend to think GMs are much less prone to the mood swings of HF. I think any GM in the league is going to look at his track record and think he's a ~20-30 goal, ~50 point winger. With his poor start though, and especially if we're looking at using him in a deal to a more budget-conscious team, I think we might have to retain some of his cap/salary for him to really have any value as a bargaining chip.

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Old
02-15-2013, 05:44 PM
  #190
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joke, right?

Not at all. Evander Kane is a great young player. We would need to offer real talent for him; Ennis is a nifty little guy who might be at his peak in this system, Stafford is Stafford.. together they equal 1 actual player. Myers is young but we broke him. Ton of talent and size, I would guess he would need to be involved in a trade for E-Kane or O'rielly for cap reasons anyway.

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Old
02-15-2013, 05:47 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Not at all. Evander Kane is a great young player. We would need to offer real talent for him; Ennis is a nifty little guy who might be at his peak in this system, Stafford is Stafford.. together they equal 1 actual player. Myers is young but we broke him. Ton of talent and size, I would guess he would need to be involved in a trade for E-Kane or O'rielly for cap reasons anyway.
Kane is all hype. Has been since he was a prospect. The kid is as dumb as you can get on and off the ice.

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02-15-2013, 05:55 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
I tend to think GMs are much less prone to the mood swings of HF. I think any GM in the league is going to look at his track record and think he's a ~20-30 goal, ~50 point winger. With his poor start though, and especially if we're looking at using him in a deal to a more budget-conscious team, I think we might have to retain some of his cap/salary for him to really have any value as a bargaining chip.
I think most GMs would see Stafford's 30-goal season as as much of an anomaly as his 0-goal start. Therefore, looking at his track record, I think they see a 20 goal (maybe 25 goal), average second line winger. In essence, I agree with your main point but see them viewing Stafford's "top end" as slightly lower. His last few years aren't all that different than Ponikarovsky from 05/6 to 09/10.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:15 PM
  #193
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That's the thing... usually most Sabres fans are willing to throw in the usual scrubs or underperformers in most deals, but not much of value.

But for ROR? I've seen mostly offers are ARE good deals, at least considering what other teams fans have been offering.

Offering the likes of two of Ennis, Sekera, Armia and Girgs? No fleecing there and that's a little uncharacteristic of Sabres fans as a whole, but shows how badly he's desired.
Sorry I couldn't respond earlier.... in-disposed while at work...

Most Avalanche fans... not HF posters.... the news paper readers and general fans don't know much about Buffalo's personnel (or problems) other than Miller and Vanek. They do know what they have in O'Reilly. They do know what their idiot GM gave up for Stewie and Shatty. There's no trust and awareness of who Ennis, Sekera, Amia or Girgs are. They are petty much unknowns but the general reaction would be..... if it ain't Miller or Vanek, what the heck is that idiot Sherman done now?

And I dare say, disappointed........ because Sekera will not flourish in this system (same one that banished the likes of Liles and Cominsky for lumbering slowpokes) and Ennis would be seen as a poor man's version of Duchene... who can also end to end rush and is now able to finish and is way more physical on his skates than Ennis since he trained with Crosby.

So, the high information fan might agree that O'Reilly straight up for Ennis and Sekera is a winner, but most will be skeptical. And I'd have to be convinced that Sherman would be willing to take that chance.

P.S. Not to piss y'all off but most that I talk with feel that Duchene should have been Rookie of the Year rather than Myers (Myers, who'se he???). I am rarely able to change their mind - because they rarely see the Sabres unless they have Center Ice. (Western Conference teams get all the exposure.)

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02-15-2013, 06:21 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by GodHatesBuffalo View Post
As far as I'm concerned Grigorenko is far more valuable than ROR. It's more like: Grigorenko for ROR + avs prospects.
I would like to compare stats. Could you please post ROR's stats so far in the NHL? Then post Grigorenko's Stats?


Then after that, explain why ROR isn't as good as Grigorenko is today in all facets of the game? Then explain why Colorado's GM would agree with you.

Educate me. Thanks.

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02-15-2013, 06:23 PM
  #195
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That's some NHL 13 Be A GM stuff right there. You'd basically have to sell the farm to get both of them.
Hodgson, Ennis, Armia, Girgensons, Grigorenko, 1st round pick

Pick any 3, and that's probably what it would take to fish Yandle out of Phoenix during the season. ROR is worth less. Both would absolutely gut the Sabres. Coyotes do not want D back, and they also cannot take on more salary than they send out.

Also, if you want to go even bigger, the Coyotes can include Vermette to replace Ennis for more added to the pot.

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02-15-2013, 06:23 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
Sorry I couldn't respond earlier.... in-disposed while at work...

Most Avalanche fans... not HF posters.... the news paper readers and general fans don't know much about Buffalo's personnel (or problems) other than Miller and Vanek. They do know what they have in O'Reilly. They do know what their idiot GM gave up for Stewie and Shatty. There's no trust and awareness of who Ennis, Sekera, Amia or Girgs are. They are petty much unknowns but the general reaction would be..... if it ain't Miller or Vanek, what the heck is that idiot Sherman done now?

And I dare say, disappointed........ because Sekera will not flourish in this system (same one that banished the likes of Liles and Cominsky for lumbering slowpokes) and Ennis would be seen as a poor man's version of Duchene... who can also end to end rush and is now able to finish and is way more physical on his skates than Ennis since he trained with Crosby.

So, the high information fan might agree that O'Reilly straight up for Ennis and Sekera is a winner, but most will be skeptical. And I'd have to be convinced that Sherman would be willing to take that chance.

P.S. Not to piss y'all off but most that I talk with feel that Duchene should have been Rookie of the Year rather than Myers (Myers, who'se he???). I am rarely able to change their mind - because they rarely see the Sabres unless they have Center Ice. (Western Conference teams get all the exposure.)
Sure that makes sense regarding Ennis and Sekera. However my point was less about them and more about the level of talent, value, potential of both them and the others names being thrown around, such as Foligno, Armia, McNabb, Girgensons.

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02-15-2013, 06:30 PM
  #197
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Some things to clear up guys:

Avs are not affraid of spending money for a player. They simply refuse to BARGAIN with a player. They have a history of putting out an offer and then if the player doesnt like it simply walking away. Yes the Avs have an internal cap, but I will not be surprised AT ALL if the Avs end up taking more salary on in a trade than O'Reilly was asking for.

Now: The Myers for O'Reilly and then Yandle to Buf scenerio sounds AMAZING as both an Avs fan and as a Sabres fan. I would love it for all teams involved (Hopefully Buffalo somehow screws Phx in that scenerio. I couldn't care less about them)

I've always wanted Myers on the Avs and I would love O'Reilly on the Sabres.

Now, as for the Avs defensive system: No, it isn't the system that is the problem. Cuminskey didn't cut it when he left either, and Leaf fans are disappointed in Liles who passed his prime in Colorado, simple as that. Problem is: Colorado expected Elliot and Barrie to get "there" faster. The reason we havent invested in puck moving D is because A. Sherman is a dumb*** and B. Because he honestly expected Elliot or Barrie to have a permanent role by now. I think Sekera could flourish in Colorado, so I'm not against him being in a trade.

Also: I'm an Avs fan who was behind Myers winning the Calder ahead of Duchene. (Though most Avs fans think I undervalue Duchene. I've always been O'Reilly > Duchene)

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02-15-2013, 06:40 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
Given how close you are to this chaos what do you see the Sabres having to offer up to land ROR?
Again, I'm sorry I'm late with the response.

Not looking at contracts or RFA/UFA status, I think in the fan's eye it would take Myers (versus Sekera) and Foligno and a top prospect like Armia or a Pysyk.

Avs aren't looking for a Center. Stastny (even though he's disgruntled) and Duchene are a good 1 -2. And Mitchell and Olver are doing a good job at 3/4.

They really need to replace Hejduk and Downie. That's Foligno & Armia. The Avs know that everyone on D falls off after Johnson (who're really a 2/3 versus a 1 shut down). That's why I say Myers verse Rej.

Of course the Avs are cheap so Rej might be attractive to the financial (and reachable). But I think it would take Foligno and Armia with Sekera to get O'Reilly (and some obligatory 2nd/3rd round draft choice).

They won't take Leopold back. Leino or Stafford would be laughed off.

I too think ROR is the real deal but I don't want the Sabres to give up that much for him. Wait a little and go after Stastny. His Dad will be OK with him returning to an old Adam's Division rival!

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02-15-2013, 06:43 PM
  #199
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Dont see it posted here, but to piggy-back on the Eklund Sabres/Yotes rumor, on his weekly appearance on WGR, Regier confirmed hes been speaking to a "Western GM whose team lost last night". That would mean hes spoken to Phoenix or Minnesota...

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02-15-2013, 06:45 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by CaptPantalones View Post
Dont see it posted here, but to piggy-back on the Eklund Sabres/Yotes rumor, on his weekly appearance on WGR, Regier confirmed hes been speaking to a "Western GM whose team lost last night". That would mean hes spoken to Phoenix or Minnesota...
Roy 4 Hanzal.

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