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ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
03-12-2013, 11:16 PM
  #351
BubbaBoot
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
A couple of things, BB:

1) Smokey Harris's league wasn't the best in the world by itself - at the time, the best players were split between the NHA and Harris's PCHA. Harris does have an attractive all-round skill set, but I think he's more of a second line talent than a first line talent.
I guess you could say it was sort of like baseball's National vs American League in quality, (lordy I hate the interleague play and wish they would go back to this).

Borderline I think, yet he has 4 championships, top 5 all-time in goals, assists and points for the league, in the few things I've been able to read it appears that he was at the very least competent on the defensive aspect and was called "the roughest and toughest boy in the league". I have no problem with him on the first line

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2) As for your second line, sure they're a known entity. But the West Coast Express is a known entity, and I don't think anyone would ever take their center and put him on a second line. Your second line really follows the scheme of the rest of your team - loaded with intangibles, but lacking offensive punch.
The line was one of the highest scoring lines, top 5 at the very least for 5 years, in the 21 team NHL which had a very high peak in goal scoring....they led the Flyers to the finals twice, only to lose to the dynastic Gretzky Oilers.

Kerr was a machine and is STILL top 10 ALL-TIME in goals per game.

Propp is underrated and is ranked:
- 26th all-time for goals among LWers
- 20th among LWers for goals/per game
- 14th among LWers with PP goals, (1st in the playoffs)
- 9th alltime for ES goals for Lwers
- 6th for SH goals among LWers,
- 4th among LWers all-time for assists, (1st in the playoffs),
- 9th for LWers in assists/game,
- 7th for LWers in total points, (1st in the playoffs)
- 13th for points/game,
This is my SECOND line LWer. There are 32 teams in this draft, where do these FIRST line LWers rank among these categories?

And like I have said before and I will beat it into the ground, this is a case of gestalt [def: A physical, biological, psychological, or symbolic configuration or pattern of elements so unified as a whole that its properties cannot be derived from a simple summation of its parts] and Poulin was the center that binded the wings together for this period....THAT is fact, written in history.

This is not the first time an ATD GM has tried to redraft an historical complete line together again because they were known entities.

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3) Your third line is awesome, I agree, though it's probably hyperbole to say Provost would win the Selke every year.
The hype I read is from the Hall of Fame Selke king Bob Gainey. Provost would have some strong competition and yes he wouldn't win it every year, but after 4 Cups and a 4 year run for a trophy pretty much created for him, Gainey never won it again for the last 8 years of his career, and won only 1 more Cup.....Provost won 9 Cups total in 15 years as the premier 3rd line winger in his mostly O6 NHL career.

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4) Rolston has a weakness in his game - he's soft as butter. I actually think he's a pretty weak even strength player at this level, but as a 4th line wing, it doesn't matter so much, and he does have a lot of value on both special teams.
You're correct about Rolston but in this format and at his placement he is more than serviceable.....I picked him specifically for his special teams, speed and adaptability at all 3 forward positions.....it's also the reason why I picked Labine, (with a couple of other gritty RWers as back up for this slot), who will hopefully keep folks from hacking Rolston to pieces during the lower ES minutes.

You're evaluations are pretty good and I also recognized some of them and it is the reason why I've spent way too many much time poring over various stats, formulas, newspaper and magazine articles, past ATD bios and evaluations and even payed for a Society for International Hockey Research subscription....(I'm ADHD, what can I say?)


Last edited by BubbaBoot: 03-12-2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 02:42 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Kerr was a machine and is STILL top 10 ALL-TIME in goals per game.

Propp is underrated and is ranked:
- 26th all-time for goals among LWers
- 20th among LWers for goals/per game
- 14th among LWers with PP goals, (1st in the playoffs)
- 9th alltime for ES goals for Lwers
- 6th for SH goals among LWers,
- 4th among LWers all-time for assists, (1st in the playoffs),
- 9th for LWers in assists/game,
- 7th for LWers in total points, (1st in the playoffs)
- 13th for points/game,
This is my SECOND line LWer. There are 32 teams in this draft, where do these FIRST line LWers rank among these categories?
Just a quick comment here, Bubba: using all-time stats like the above generally results in some pretty bad arguments being put forth, especially as pertains to players from the big scoring 1980's. You're not really going to convince anyone with that sort of argument. That being said, Propp is, indeed, a very strong 2nd line LW glue guy. His scoring is pretty good for his role, and he brings a huge amount of intangibles. Kerr is ok as a 2nd line RW. He's largely a powerplay specialist, but I do think he gets somewhat underrated as as ES player by people who seem to think that he was just worthless as ES. He wasn't worthless. His main problem is that he was just too slow to be much of a checker and so needed real-life linemates who could pick up the slack for him, which you have obviously provided. It's definitely a well-built line, though to be honest, in terms of ATD talent level, it's a very strong 3rd line, not a second line, as it lacks any kind of real offensive catalyst at even strength. This shouldn't really come as a surprise, as you drafted Poulin and Kerr in the part of the draft where 3rd liners are typically chosen.

Smokey Harris is a fairly average 2nd line LW as far as I can tell. He was a second tier scoring star in the PCHA during the split league era, brought some grit and aggressiveness, and had a long and successful career. He never won a Stanley Cup.


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Old
03-13-2013, 05:18 AM
  #353
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Smokey Harris is a fairly average 2nd line LW as far as I can tell. He was a second tier scoring star in the PCHA during the split league era, brought some grit and aggressiveness, and had a long and successful career. He never won a Stanley Cup.
That is a mostly fair assessment. I think it's pretty impossible to hold it against Harris that he never won a Cup. The guy led all playoff scoring twice, and led his team three times. He was, as far as I can tell, a very good playoff performer, and it definately was not his fault that he never won a Cup.

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Old
03-13-2013, 08:35 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That is a mostly fair assessment. I think it's pretty impossible to hold it against Harris that he never won a Cup. The guy led all playoff scoring twice, and led his team three times. He was, as far as I can tell, a very good playoff performer, and it definately was not his fault that he never won a Cup.
Of course. I was just trying to clarify what is meant by the four championships Harris' teams won, which were PCHA titles. I don't think it was Harris' fault, but his Vancouver teams (though he also went to a Cup finals in Portland) were pretty much the Buffalo Bills of the split-league era.

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Old
03-13-2013, 09:52 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
That is a mostly fair assessment. I think it's pretty impossible to hold it against Harris that he never won a Cup. The guy led all playoff scoring twice, and led his team three times. He was, as far as I can tell, a very good playoff performer, and it definately was not his fault that he never won a Cup.
Cam Neely says hello too......

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Old
03-13-2013, 09:57 AM
  #356
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It's funny......I read such contradicting analysis on just about everything around here....and somehow it's supposed to be taken for canon....go figure.

I feel the fun being sapped out of me and spat into a greazy spittoon.

Oh well, my fault anyway, I shouldn't piss and moan, I deserve it, eh?

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03-13-2013, 10:06 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
It's funny......I read such contradicting analysis on just about everything around here....and somehow it's supposed to be taken for canon....go figure.

I feel the fun being sapped out of me and spat into a greazy spittoon.

Oh well, my fault anyway, I shouldn't piss and moan, I deserve it, eh?
Everybody's opinion on every player is different, so it shouldn't surprise anybody that there ends up being many different kinds of analysis on the same team.

Why is the fun getting sucked out? Hopefully, you didn't join expecting to win in your first draft. It takes a few years to really figure out what people think around here... And even then it has probably changed!

I get my fun out of learning about players, making biographies, and hopefully selling new guys as all-time greats.

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Old
03-13-2013, 10:18 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Everybody's opinion on every player is different, so it shouldn't surprise anybody that there ends up being many different kinds of analysis on the same team.

Why is the fun getting sucked out? Hopefully, you didn't join expecting to win in your first draft. It takes a few years to really figure out what people think around here... And even then it has probably changed!

I get my fun out of learning about players, making biographies, and hopefully selling new guys as all-time greats.
Ah, just in a down period, I've had a really ****** year and this winter has been hellacious....I'm riding a roller coaster of emotions and I have little patience for pontifications, even from myself,( like I actually have the definitive answer to anything, eh?)

Sorry if I sound like a whiney pissant.....just would like a little nugget of sunshine, (as I jam and scramble up as many cliches as I can), to get out of this rut. Was just using this ATD as a diversion, playing with something I love....playing being the key word here.....

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03-13-2013, 10:42 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
It's funny......I read such contradicting analysis on just about everything around here....and somehow it's supposed to be taken for canon....go figure.

I feel the fun being sapped out of me and spat into a greazy spittoon.

Oh well, my fault anyway, I shouldn't piss and moan, I deserve it, eh?
I'm not sure to what contradiction you are referring, though there are definitely different categories of analysis; let's call them "polite", "honest" and "impolite". The latter category is rare during the actual draft process, and mostly seems to exist between mark and Jafar at this point, but becomes considerably more common once the playoffs roll around and GMs set themselves to the task of running their opponents down. This is predictable and easy to understand.

The most important thing to understand about ATD criticism is the distinction between the first two. During the draft process, most GMs offer milquetoast criticism both in positive and negative form because they want neither to offend, nor to give their opponents an advantage through excessive praise. So they use words like "below average" when what they mean is "sucks!", "average" when they really mean "mediocre", and "pretty good" when what they mean is either "average" or "very good", depending on which way they are hedging. Complimentary language beyond "pretty good" is saved only for special occasions or for cases where the strength of a certain player in his role is so obvious that no advantage is given through praise. Calling another GM's player "good" is a concession, not a compliment. Polite criticism is the most common form in the ATD.

This draft is a jungle, and every statement that one GM makes about another GM's players has to be considered a strategic manuever on some level. This is somewhat depressing if you think about it too much, so don't, but don't forget it, either. Those of us who have no teams are probably the most honest critics here, though even we have our prejudices. Being a rookie GM alone in the ATD is very hard because, unless you have lurked for years as TDMM did, you tend to be rather lacking in the overview department, and negative judgments about your team can seem to materialize like lightning bolts out of the clear blue sky. This generally happens not because your players are worse than you think (although in some cases this is true), but because many other players are better than you have realized, which makes your guys relatively weaker when compared to the whole continuum of hockey history.

The moral of the story is this: your players are mostly what you think they are, but there are probably still many players out there who you are underestimating. We tend to fall in love with our guys in the ATD, and unless you have detailed knowledge about a whole lot of the players who populate these teams, it is really hard (and barely human) to look at another team and think that it might be better than yours. Such is life.

It's a bizarre system, really. Each and every ATD GM is simultaneously judge, jury, accused, and executioner. It should come as no surprise that we engage in a bit of doublespeak.

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03-13-2013, 11:10 AM
  #360
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I'm not sure to what contradiction you are referring, though there are definitely different categories of analysis; let's call them "polite", "honest" and "impolite". The latter category is rare during the actual draft process, and mostly seems to exist between mark and Jafar at this point, but becomes considerably more common once the playoffs roll around and GMs set themselves to the task of running their opponents down. This is predictable and easy to understand.

The most important thing to understand about ATD criticism is the distinction between the first two. During the draft process, most GMs offer milquetoast criticism both in positive and negative form because they want neither to offend, nor to give their opponents an advantage through excessive praise. So they use words like "below average" when what they mean is "sucks!", "average" when they really mean "mediocre", and "pretty good" when what they mean is either "average" or "very good", depending on which way they are hedging. Complimentary language beyond "pretty good" is saved only for special occasions or for cases where the strength of a certain player in his role is so obvious that no advantage is given through praise. Calling another GM's player "good" is a concession, not a compliment. Polite criticism is the most common form in the ATD.

This draft is a jungle, and every statement that one GM makes about another GM's players has to be considered a strategic manuever on some level. This is somewhat depressing if you think about it too much, so don't, but don't forget it, either. Those of us who have no teams are probably the most honest critics here, though even we have our prejudices. Being a rookie GM alone in the ATD is very hard because, unless you have lurked for years as TDMM did, you tend to be rather lacking in the overview department, and negative judgments about your team can seem to materialize like lightning bolts out of the clear blue sky. This generally happens not because your players are worse than you think (although in some cases this is true), but because many other players are better than you have realized, which makes your guys relatively weaker when compared to the whole continuum of hockey history.

The moral of the story is this: your players are mostly what you think they are, but there are probably still many players out there who you are underestimating. We tend to fall in love with our guys in the ATD, and unless you have detailed knowledge about a whole lot of the players who populate these teams, it is really hard (and barely human) to look at another team and think that it might be better than yours. Such is life.

It's a bizarre system, really. Each and every ATD GM is simultaneously judge, jury, accused, and executioner. It should come as no surprise that we engage in a bit of doublespeak.
Thanks for the response, it's good and I understand it.

In actuality, I've been cruising the roster threads and said, "Damn! that's a good team", more times that I want to admit, especially after I've researched some of these otherwise unknown picks to me.

As I've gotten older I've developed a thicker skin, I've just had a rough patch recently and my tolerance levels are short at the moment.....a lot of stuff just seems so trivial to me lately.

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03-13-2013, 02:12 PM
  #361
Dwight
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West Island Lions' starting lineup:

Joe Malone - Bernie Federko - Mark Recchi
Clark Gillies - Brad Richards - Yvan Cournoyer
Fleming Mackell - Bob Bourne - Frank Finnigan
Yvon Lambert - Doug Risebrough - Bill Ezinicki

King Clancy - Bob Baun
Lionel Conacher - Pat Egan
Don Awrey - Jerry Korab

Dominik Hasek

Not really looking for reviews (will save that for the assassinations), but was wondering who you guys all thought would be solid choices for captains/alternates?

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03-13-2013, 02:16 PM
  #362
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West Island Lions' starting lineup:

Joe Malone - Bernie Federko - Mark Recchi
Clark Gillies - Brad Richards - Yvan Cournoyer
Fleming Mackell - Bob Bourne - Frank Finnigan
Yvon Lambert - Doug Risebrough - Bill Ezinicki

King Clancy - Bob Baun
Lionel Conacher - Pat Egan
Don Awrey - Jerry Korab

Dominik Hasek

Not really looking for reviews (will save that for the assassinations), but was wondering who you guys all thought would be solid choices for captains/alternates?
I would give King Clancy the C and Yvan Cournoyer and Lionel Conacher the As. I realize Cournoyer captained a dynasty, but I always felt that as largely due to seniority. I think more ink has been spilled over Clancy's leadership, but maybe I'm somewhat of a Clancy fanboy.

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03-13-2013, 02:36 PM
  #363
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Clancy was my #1 option for captain, FWIW.

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03-13-2013, 03:52 PM
  #364
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Thoughts on my special teams?

Ted Lindsay - Ted Kennedy (C) - Bobby Rousseau
Harry Watson - Henrik Sedin - Charlie Conacher
Patrick Marleau - Denis Savard - Wilf Paiement
XXXXX - Steve Kasper - Cully Wilson

Eddie Gerard (A) - Ken Reardon
Gennady Tsygankov - Mike Grant (A)
Bill Hajt - Lennart Svedberg

George Hainsworth
Rogie Vachon



PP 1:

Lindsay – Savard – Conacher
Svedberg – Rousseau

PP 2:

Sedin - Kennedy - Marleau
Gerard - Grant


PK 1:

Kennedy - Kasper
Hajt- Gerard

PK 2:

Savard - Rousseau
Reardon - Tysgankov

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03-13-2013, 03:55 PM
  #365
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Thoughts on my special teams?

Ted Lindsay - Ted Kennedy (C) - Bobby Rousseau
Harry Watson - Henrik Sedin - Charlie Conacher
Patrick Marleau - Denis Savard - Wilf Paiement
XXXXX - Steve Kasper - Cully Wilson

Eddie Gerard (A) - Ken Reardon
Gennady Tsygankov - Mike Grant (A)
Bill Hajt - Lennart Svedberg

George Hainsworth
Rogie Vachon



PP 1:

Lindsay Savard Conacher
Svedberg Rousseau

PP 2:

Sedin - Kennedy - Marleau
Gerard - Grant


PK 1:

Kennedy - Kasper
Hajt- Gerard

PK 2:

Savard - Rousseau
Reardon - Tysgankov
Definitely need to draft a PKer for the 4th line, and get Savard off the 2nd unit.

Also, might look into a PP defenseman, or another forward who can play the point.

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03-13-2013, 04:07 PM
  #366
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Definitely need to draft a PKer for the 4th line, and get Savard off the 2nd unit.

Also, might look into a PP defenseman, or another forward who can play the point.
Really? I think Gerard and Grant are fine on his second pairing, however I do concur he covets a stronger penalty killer to replace Savard.

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03-13-2013, 04:13 PM
  #367
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Really? I think Gerard and Grant are fine on his second pairing, however I do concur he covets a stronger penalty killer to replace Savard.
Not really a big fan of any of Svedberg, Gerard, and Grant on the PP. You're right that they aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. They're just "meh", and I'd want better if I could find it.

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03-13-2013, 04:23 PM
  #368
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Not really a big fan of any of Svedberg, Gerard, and Grant on the PP. You're right that they aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. They're just "meh", and I'd want better if I could find it.
I think Svedberg could use a better look at his stats, but he was known as an offensive-minded defenseman, and was apparently good enough to be selected to the World Championships All Star team 3 straight years along-side Jan Suchy and over any Soviet defenseman. Very short career, but I think there's a very good case that he peaked higher than Alexander Ragulin or any other Soviet defenseman who came along before Vasiliev - and it seems it was mostly Svedberg's offense that as raved about.

But again, he's really a guy who could use a good statistical analysis.

On the other hand, Svedberg never won the "Goldpucken" award, and Sjoberg did while Svedberg was still alive, so that's something of a concern I guess.

As for Gerard and Grant, are they really that bad on a second unit?

I agree with you that mark's penalty killing forwards are pretty weak - Kennedy and Kasper are good centers for it, but Rousseau is the only winger I'd want on an ATD PK, and I think he's more second-unit quality than first-unit quality.

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03-13-2013, 04:26 PM
  #369
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Not really a big fan of any of Svedberg, Gerard, and Grant on the PP. You're right that they aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. They're just "meh", and I'd want better if I could find it.
I need to be sold on Grant. I just don't know much about him, especially for a player drafted where he is. Svedberg and Gerard are both allright as 2nd unit pointmen, I think. I think the real problem is who to put next to Rousseau on the top unit. I'd almost be tempted to put Denis Savard on that left point.

edit: Devil is right that Svedberg may be better than we think, but I'd need to see the data first.

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03-13-2013, 04:33 PM
  #370
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I think Svedberg could use a better look at his stats, but he was known as an offensive-minded defenseman, and was apparently good enough to be selected to the World Championships All Star team 3 straight years along-side Jan Suchy and over any Soviet defenseman. Very short career, but I think there's a very good case that he peaked higher than Alexander Ragulin or any other Soviet defenseman who came along before Vasiliev - and it seems it was mostly Svedberg's offense that as raved about.

But again, he's really a guy who could use a good statistical analysis.

On the other hand, Svedberg never won the "Goldpucken" award, and Sjoberg did while Svedberg was still alive, so that's something of a concern I guess.
Svedberg is a mystery to most people. He might be great, but I'm not going to assume he is.

Hopefully, mark can do a good bio on him... and if he does, I can be sold.

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As for Gerard and Grant, are they really that bad on a second unit?
No, it's not bad. It's just not good.

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I need to be sold on Grant. I just don't know much about him, especially for a player drafted where he is. Svedberg and Gerard are both allright as 2nd unit pointmen, I think. I think the real problem is who to put next to Rousseau on the top unit. I'd almost be tempted to put Denis Savard on that left point.
Grant's goal scoring statistics are not great, so based on his reputation, he must have been more of a passer. How good of a passer? I have no idea.

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03-13-2013, 04:39 PM
  #371
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My PK forwards will be as follows...

Unit 1
Craig Conroy -

Unit 2
Ryan Kesler -


The remaining two forwards will be Bob Nevin (2nd line ES) and Gilles Tremblay (3rd line ES). Who should be on the first unit?

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03-13-2013, 05:01 PM
  #372
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Svedberg is a mystery to most people. He might be great, but I'm not going to assume he is.

Hopefully, mark can do a good bio on him... and if he does, I can be sold.
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His unpredictable moves and effortless skating made him extremely hard to stop. He was a Paul Coffey type of player in regards of skating and offensive play. He didn't score many goals, but he set up a lot and created havoc in the offensive zone. .
http://www.1972summitseries.com/othersvedberg.html

Although it is a video, the below is very telling in how Svedberg was against the top Russians of his time:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_pfFMhPW7s

He is number 4 and several times you can see him making effortless rushes as well as creating numerous offensive chances. 2:20-2:30 is my personal favourite.

His skills translates perfectly into a PP defenceman who can skate the puck up and join the rush and set up the PP in the other teams end.

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03-13-2013, 05:08 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post



Grant's goal scoring statistics are not great, so based on his reputation, he must have been more of a passer. How good of a passer? I have no idea.
This just shows that Grant was the "Best known hockey player in Canada"

I just want to post because it's pretty cool how he describes his philosophy of the game and each position:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...t+hockey&hl=en

Also My PP defenseman will not be looked upon as the preimary puck distributors in the other teams end. I have Savard and Lindsay on my first unit and then Sedin on my 2nd who will be the primary puck distributors on the PP.

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03-13-2013, 05:13 PM
  #374
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I need to be sold on Grant. I just don't know much about him, especially for a player drafted where he is. Svedberg and Gerard are both allright as 2nd unit pointmen, I think. I think the real problem is who to put next to Rousseau on the top unit. I'd almost be tempted to put Denis Savard on that left point.
Grant seems to have been widely considered the best defenseman of the late 1890s, better than a young Harvey Pulford. Pulford had a stupidly long career for a player from that era and got famous as the top defenseman on what was basically a dynasty, but there is a legitimate case that Grant as a better defenseman IMO. Whether that means Grant is underrated or Pulford is overrated is anyone's guess.

Quote:
edit: Devil is right that Svedberg may be better than we think, but I'd need to see the data first.
His peak at the World Championships must have been quite incredible, that's for sure. Alexander Ragulin was an AS at the Worlds 5 straight years from 1963-1967, then never again, despite routinely being an All-Star in his domestic league. What happened after 1968? Suchy and Svedberg were the two All-Stars for 3 straight years from 1968-1970 and Suchy tagged on a 4th straight in 1971.

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03-13-2013, 05:16 PM
  #375
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I just tried investigating Svedberg's domestic league stats at eurohockey.net and this site, but I'm not satisfied that the numbers we have are good. The stats at Eurohockey suggest he should show up on the leaderboards at the other site, which he does not outside of the 1967-68 season. So I dunno.

Comparing Svedberg's scoring in the world championships to Suchy's is rather enlightening, though. They were contemporaries, both breaking onto their respective national teams for the 1965 world championships. Suchy played a good deal more games for his national team (Svedberg was evidently dropped from the team after 1965, and first appeared again in the 1968 olympics), but we can at least roughly compare their scoring by looking at how they did when playing in the same tournaments.

PlayerGoalsAssistsPointsGames PlayedPoints per Game
Jan Suchy212546650.71
Lennart Svedberg6814440.32

Now, I don't know if this is fair to Svedberg or not, but it's the closest thing I can get to a barometer on his offensive skills. I'm not sure how complimentary this ends up being; it is less than I had expected. Now, Suchy is a strong top pairing QB in my opinion, but less than half of his production is...less good.

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