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ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
03-15-2013, 02:51 PM
  #426
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reds4Life View Post
The "/Crosby" meant to imply that he might take some extra shifts if needed, not that he'd play there regularly.



For me, the first three lines are interchangeable - so Apps' unit could be considered as the first line.
Why would you bench Holmstrom? Just wondering..I think he adds a lot of sand paper and puck winning.
Machac was indeed offensive minded defenseman, but he could play PK as well.

Thank you very much for the tips so far guys.
I think Holmstrom is an absolutely terrible even strength player for this level. Sure, he has sandpaper, but so do a lot of other guys, and those guys actually bring either some level of offense or defense. His only ATD-worthy skill is screening the goalie on the PP (hopefully 2nd unit), but I would give him as few even strength minutes as possible.

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03-15-2013, 02:58 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Where does Ted Green get ATD PP cred?

I thought he only had a very small time as a good offensive defenseman before he got beaned?
I think you're right about only spending a small time as a good offensive defenseman, but Ted Green is far from the worst guy who will be playing point on the second unit of a PP here.

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03-15-2013, 03:01 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think you're right about only spending a small time as a good offensive defenseman, but Ted Green is far from the worst guy who will be playing point on the second unit of a PP here.
Sheesh I guess I have to review some more lineups.

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Old
03-15-2013, 03:35 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You have the option to play Fedorov on the point instead of Svehla (who is a pretty weak pointman), but then I don't know who would take faceoffs for you. I think Gottselig is probably a better PKer than Fleury, no? I mean, you're barely using him, might as well get some use from him.
Gottselig, I'll consider.

About Fedorov, he's slotted on the first PP unit on the half boards (with Tkachuk up front). Playing him on both and top PK isn't really an option. He could move to Larson's spot, Larson dropping to Svehla's spot, then Bure would move up to first unit, and any of Gottselig/Liba/Sandstrom/MacLean on the second unit, but I'm not sure if it's that much better.

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03-15-2013, 04:20 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I might be off here, but wasn't Machac an offense-first defenseman who played next to the more well-rounded Pospisil?
I read a few Czech articles on Mahac via Google Translate. In terms of style, he was remembered for being a big shooter and a big hitter. Pospisil said he would steer opposing forwards into the middle of the ice so Mahac could catch them with an open ice hit.

Not sure how you'd break that down as offensive vs defensive.

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03-15-2013, 04:44 PM
  #431
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Here's my starting lineup, unless I find a gem in the next few rounds good enough to bump another player.



Dawson City Nuggets

General Manager: Modo

Head Coach: Herb Brooks


Dickie Moore - Henri Richard - Babe Dye
Charlie Simmer - Joe Nieuwendyk - Punch Broadbent
Brenden Morrow - Kirk Muller - Reggie Leach
Wendel Clark - Metro Prystai - Pat Verbeek

Bobby Orr - Hap Day
Derian Hatcher - Clarence "Taffy" Abel
Andre "Moose" Dupont - Al Iafrate

Bernie Parent
Dave Kerr

Haven't looked at special teams yet but will do that soon.

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03-15-2013, 04:56 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Here's my starting lineup, unless I find a gem in the next few rounds good enough to bump another player.



Dawson City Nuggets

General Manager: Modo

Head Coach: Herb Brooks


Dickie Moore - Henri Richard - Babe Dye
Charlie Simmer - Joe Nieuwendyk - Punch Broadbent
Brenden Morrow - Kirk Muller - Reggie Leach
Wendel Clark - Metro Prystai - Pat Verbeek

Bobby Orr - Hap Day
Derian Hatcher - Clarence "Taffy" Abel
Andre "Moose" Dupont - Al Iafrate

Bernie Parent
Dave Kerr


Haven't looked at special teams yet but will do that soon.
Really fast observations...

Love that 1st line. Hate that 2nd line. 3rd line's weak too. 4th line's great.

1st pair is great. 2nd pair is very slow. 3rd pair is "meh". Goaltending is good.

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03-15-2013, 05:00 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Really fast observations...

Love that 1st line. Hate that 2nd line. 3rd line's weak too. 4th line's great.

1st pair is great. 2nd pair is very slow. 3rd pair is "meh". Goaltending is good.
I think his third line is ok, about average.

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03-15-2013, 05:02 PM
  #434
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I think his third line is ok, about average.
Weak at all 3 positions IMO.

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03-15-2013, 05:04 PM
  #435
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Starters: Open to any suggestions...

Frank Mahovlich-Duke Keats-Alexander Maltsev
Vin Damphousse-Marty Barry-Jack Darragh
Craig Ramsay-Rusty Crawford-Ed Westfall
Louis Berlinquette-Murray Oliver-Todd Bertuzzi

Marcel Pronovost-Red Kelly
Zdeno Chara-Teppo Numminen
Barclay Plager-Dre' Markov

Tony Esposito

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:09 PM
  #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Starters: Open to any suggestions...

Frank Mahovlich-Duke Keats-Alexander Maltsev
Vin Damphousse-Marty Barry-Jack Darragh
Craig Ramsay-Rusty Crawford-Ed Westfall
Louis Berlinquette-Murray Oliver-Todd Bertuzzi

Marcel Pronovost-Red Kelly
Zdeno Chara-Teppo Numminen
Barclay Plager-Dre' Markov

Tony Esposito
I'm still not entirely convinced that Rusty Crawford regularly played center.

I would consider switching Chara and Pronovost. I like Chara as a steady partner next to Kelly, and Pronovost was best when playing like a kamikaze.

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03-15-2013, 05:13 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Really fast observations...

Love that 1st line. Hate that 2nd line. 3rd line's weak too. 4th line's great.

1st pair is great. 2nd pair is very slow. 3rd pair is "meh". Goaltending is good.
Yeah, it's strange. His top 3 right wings all seem like guys who need to play with a center like Henri Richard to be most effective.

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03-15-2013, 06:33 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm still not entirely convinced that Rusty Crawford regularly played center.

I would consider switching Chara and Pronovost. I like Chara as a steady partner next to Kelly, and Pronovost was best when playing like a kamikaze.
Crawford didn't play centre regularly, but he did at times. Just like Damphousse wasn't always a LW. Id switch them but my 2nd line wing's would be terribly soft.

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03-15-2013, 06:37 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Crawford didn't play centre regularly, but he did at times. Just like Damphousse wasn't always a LW. Id switch them but my 2nd line wing's would be terribly soft.
Wasn't Crawford something of a physical player? More physical than Damphousse?

I guess there's an issue of Crawford's offense - seventieslord's ancient profile makes it sound pretty decent, but its' tough to compare all those top 10s in early split leagues with anything approaching the modern game.

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03-15-2013, 06:45 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Wasn't Crawford something of a physical player? More physical than Damphousse?

I guess there's an issue of Crawford's offense - seventieslord's ancient profile makes it sound pretty decent, but its' tough to compare all those top 10s in early split leagues with anything approaching the modern game.
I thought of him as kind of an old school Gaborik with better defence, but not much of a physical presence. There's not much out there on him.

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03-15-2013, 07:21 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I thought of him as kind of an old school Gaborik with better defence, but not much of a physical presence. There's not much out there on him.
Where does the Gaborik comparison come from?

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03-15-2013, 09:09 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm still not entirely convinced that Rusty Crawford regularly played center.

I would consider switching Chara and Pronovost. I like Chara as a steady partner next to Kelly, and Pronovost was best when playing like a kamikaze.
Very good observation. I would definitely do that.

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03-15-2013, 09:50 PM
  #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Crawford didn't play centre regularly, but he did at times. Just like Damphousse wasn't always a LW. Id switch them but my 2nd line wing's would be terribly soft.
I don't think Damphousse is much tougher than Crawford...

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:01 PM
  #444
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I don't think Damphousse is much tougher than Crawford...
Unless I'm reading Crawford wrong, I think he's tougher than Damphousse!

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03-15-2013, 10:12 PM
  #445
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Jimmy Roberts D/RW

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe

Good pick, but isn't he a RW/D?

He's been bounced back and forth.

With Peterborough he was a defenseman
With the Montreal Royals I'm not sure.
With Hull-Ottawa he was a RWer one year and a defenseman for most of the next.
With the Montreal Canadiens I've seen him listed at both, I think he spent his first 3 years as a defenseman but I just don't know what the breakdown was.
With the Blues he was mainly a RWer I believe.

I really don't know, other than knowing that he was a jack of all trades and was goods on the PK.

I just think he's too valuable as a spare and I want to know if it is justifiable to use him as my #6.

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03-15-2013, 10:15 PM
  #446
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I don't think Damphousse is much tougher than Crawford...
Yeah Damphousse is anything but an imposing physical player in my mind.

Take a hit to make a play etc. but he wasn't going out of his way or anything.

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Old
03-16-2013, 04:04 AM
  #447
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Any suggestions to improve my special teams?

PP (normal)
Sid Abel - Phil Esposito - Daniel Alfredsson
Ilya Kovalchuk - Paul Coffey

Bill Thoms - Milan Novy - George Armstrong
Bob Dailey - Lloyd Cook

PP (with a late lead)
Sid Abel - Phil Esposito - Ilya Kovalchuk
Lloyd Cook - Paul Coffey

George Armstrong - Milan Novy - Daniel Alfredsson
Bob Dailey - Tom Johnson

PK
Ken Mosdell - Jerry Toppazzini
Tom Johnson - Bill White

Bill Thoms - Tony Leswick
Gary Bergman - Bob Dailey

extras: Sid Abel - George Armstrong
Lloyd Cook
Very strong top unit powerplay, but a weak second unit without anybody who is high-end in his role and a few (Armstrong, Thoms and Dailey) who are definitely low-end. This powerplay looks like it may crush opponents without strong 1st unit penalty-killers, and have problems against those that do have them.

Looks like a fairly average PK. The forwards on the 1st unit are good, but the defensemen are below average, which is what one would expect on a team with Paul Coffey as the #1 defenseman. Basically the same deal on the 2nd unit PK. Leswick is a quite strong 2nd unit PK forward (I think he could easily play on a 1st unit), but Thoms only looks ok. I would probably prefer Houle on this unit, but it's not clear how much time he spent at center and how he was in the faceoff circle. The defensemen are pretty meh. This is more trickledown from having Coffey as the #1 - your #2 and #3 defensemen are on the 1st unit PK, leaving your #4 as your top 2nd unit guy, and a bottom pairing defenseman to round out the unit. Bergman is fine, though not high-end on a 2nd unit PK, but Dailey I don't know about. I understand that he was big and strong, but he was never a high-end defensive player. Other than maybe switching out Houle for Thoms, I agree with the personnel choices, though. It is what it is.

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03-16-2013, 04:23 AM
  #448
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Very strong top unit powerplay, but a weak second unit without anybody who is high-end in his role and a few (Armstrong, Thoms and Dailey) who are definitely low-end. This powerplay looks like it may crush opponents without strong 1st unit penalty-killers, and have problems against those that do have them.

Looks like a fairly average PK. The forwards on the 1st unit are good, but the defensemen are below average, which is what one would expect on a team with Paul Coffey as the #1 defenseman. Basically the same deal on the 2nd unit PK. Leswick is a quite strong 2nd unit PK forward (I think he could easily play on a 1st unit), but Thoms only looks ok. I would probably prefer Houle on this unit, but it's not clear how much time he spent at center and how he was in the faceoff circle. The defensemen are pretty meh. This is more trickledown from having Coffey as the #1 - your #2 and #3 defensemen are on the 1st unit PK, leaving your #4 as your top 2nd unit guy, and a bottom pairing defenseman to round out the unit. Bergman is fine, though not high-end on a 2nd unit PK, but Dailey I don't know about. I understand that he was big and strong, but he was never a high-end defensive player. Other than maybe switching out Houle for Thoms, I agree with the personnel choices, though. It is what it is.
I'm extremely confused as to why you think Tom Johnson and Bill White are not high end penalty killers - I honestly think they are two of the top penalty killing defensemen in the draft.

Bill White:

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Highest Percentage of Team's PPGA on-ice for, career, post-expansion, defensemen:
WHITE, BILL 604 65%
ORR, BOBBY 596 63%
CHELIOS, CHRIS 1616 58%
BOURQUE, RAY 1612 58%
SAVARD, SERGE 1038 58%
HAJT, BILL 854 57%
BECK, BARRY 615 57%
STEVENS, SCOTT 1635 56%
HATCHER, DERIAN 1045 56%
SCHOENFELD, JIM 719 56%


NHL Penalty Killing Stats, 1971-1976 (White's Time With Chicago)

Team PPGA PPOA PK%
Philadelphia 377 2357 84.01
Chicago 274 1612 83.00
Boston 310 1820 82.97
Montreal 276 1620 82.96
Buffalo 296 1691 82.50
NY Rangers 291 1596 81.77
Los Angeles 285 1537 81.46
Atlanta 193 1036 81.37
NY Islanders 236 1240 80.97
Detroit 355 1805 80.33
Pittsburgh 330 1647 79.96
St. Louis 396 1855 78.65
Toronto 359 1679 78.62
California 334 1505 77.81
Minnesota 377 1676 77.51
Vancouver 412 1734 76.24
Kansas City 133 528 74.81
Washington 158 580 72.76

Chicago was killing penalties better than even Ramsay's Sabres, Orr's Bruins, and Gainey's mighty Habs. Only the Parent-led Flyers were better during this time.

In the 1977 season, Chicago's first without White, their PK% dropped to 78.01%, 13th out of 18 teams. This represents a 29% increase in goals against per opportunity.

The LA Kings took a bit of a tumble after trading White, too. In their two full seasons with White, they killed 79.73% of their penalties. In the two full seasons after, it was 76.43%. This was a 16% increase in goals against per opportunity.

Chicago Blackhawks Top-12 Penalty Killers, 1971-1976

Name GP PPGA PPGA/GP
Bill White 394 151 0.38
(undrafted) 207 58 0.28
Pat Stapleton 229 59 0.26
(undrafted) 380 94 0.25
(undrafted) 324 71 0.22
(undrafted) 305 61 0.20
(undrafted) 261 50 0.19
(undrafted) 446 81 0.18
Stan Mikita 408 64 0.16
(undrafted) 302 44 0.15
(undrafted) 347 47 0.14
(undrafted) 463 40 0.09

Bill White was by far the most important member of the NHL's 2nd-best penalty kill. During his 6 full seasons in Chicago, he was on the ice for 60% more PPGA than any other player, and had twice as many as all but two players. His per-game average was double all but five players, and only Stapleton and someone else had even 2/3 as many PPGA/GP as White.
On top of that, White finished 1st in a 1974 Coach's poll for "best defensive defenseman" and 2nd in a 1976 Coach's poll. In between them, there was this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poll of NHL correspondents from The World Almanac Guide To Pro Hockey 1974-75
BEST DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMEN:

1. Bill White 51 pts
2. undrafted 10 pts
3. Bobby Orr 9 pts
4. Borje Salming 8 pts
5. undrafted 6 pts
6. Terry Harper 5 pts

SMARTEST PLAYER:

Bill White was 7th with one first-place vote. Orr, Mikita, Clarke, Keon, Richard, Esposito and Westfall placed higher.
Bill White doesn't provide much offense, but his penalty killing should not be in question.

Tom Johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL.com
From the Manitoba prairie town of Baldur, Johnson was an excellent skater and an intelligent defender. He was highly regarded as a playmaker and he was tenacious in corners and along the boards. He became a penalty-killing specialist primarily because fellow Habs defenseman Doug Harvey anchored the power play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
An accomplished skater and puckhandler, defenseman Tom Johnson played a valuable role on the powerful Montreal Canadiens teams of the 1950s... Johnson soon became a stalwart on the penalty-killing unit, where the team utilized his speed and his ability to win the majority of the battles in the corners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
A slow-footed defender, Johnson rarely received any power play time but was a key penalty killer for Les Habitants. The 6 time Stanley Cup champ was also known for his physical, sometimes dirty play.
Funny that Joe Pelletier's account of Johnson's speed completely contradicts the other two sources (my guess is he misinterpreted articles that called Johnson "slower than Harvey" as meaning he was actually slow).

Anyway, Johnson seems to have been the #1 penalty killer of a dynasty.


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03-16-2013, 04:35 AM
  #449
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As for the powerplay, have you seen who other teams have on the points of their second units? Lloyd Cook is definitely high end for a second powerplay unit, and I don't think Bob Dailey is any worse than the average 4th best pointman on an ATD team. Like I told HawkeyTown, his big shot is a major asset. They also provide continuity from Kovalchuk-Coffey with Cook replacing Coffey as a left-handed QB and Dailey replacing Kovalchuk as a right-handed big shot.

Thoms and Armstrong aren't exactly awe-inspiring up front, but Armstrong was known for being very good in front of the net, and that will be his role on the PP. Edit: And I don't see what makes him any worse than someone like Paul MacLean for that role.

Edit: As I may have said above, I do think that the weakest part of my special teams are the forwards up front on my second powerplay. I don't think they are terrible, but they are definitely below average. I definitely paid them less attention than to the 1st PP or either PK unit.

Would you prefer Lloyd Cook to Bob Dailey on the 2nd PK? I think Cook is better, but Dailey is a right-handed shot.


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03-16-2013, 04:49 AM
  #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
Bobby Hull - Sergei Fedorov - Theo Fleury
Keith Tkachuk - Pavel Datsyuk - Pavel Bure
Igor Liba - Mike Peca - Paul MacLean
Johnny Gottselig - Dan Bain - Tomas Sandstrom


Bill Gadsby - Harvey Pulford
Moose Vasko - Reed Larson
Graham Drinkwater - Robert Svehla

Harry Lumley
Mike Liut


PP1: Larson - Gadsby - Hull - Tkachuk - Fedorov
PP2: Svehla - Drinkwater - Bure - Datsyuk - Fleury

PK1: Gadsby - Pulford - Peca - Fedorov
PK2: Vasko - Svehla - Datsyuk - Fleury

Think the special teams fit? I wanted to give Tkachuk a role as net presence on first PP.
I would rearrange your powerplay formation a bit. I'd do it like so:

Hull - Tkachuk - Bure
Fedorov - Gadsby

Datsyuk - MacLean - Fleury
Larson - Drinkwater

I would do this for a few reasons:

- Going by his stats (especially when you take into account that is was the 1980's), Reed Larson wasn't actually that super on the powerplay. He was a great even-strength puckmover, but does not belong on an ATD 1st unit PP, I think. But he's a strong 2nd unit guy.

- Why on earth would you draft Paul MacLean and not use him as a net guy on your 2nd PP? That's easily his single best skill. I was certain this was what you were intending when you drafted him, and I thought it was a smart move. Do it.

- Pavel Bure on a 2nd PP is a waste of talent, and moving Bure up to the 1st unit makes Tkachuk the 3rd best forward on the unit, so it will be harder for opponents to focus on him.

------------------------------

- you might want to think about swapping Vasko and Gadsby on the PK units. I doubt that Vasko was really a better penalty killer than Gadsby, but I also don't know that he was worse. Gadsby is more of an offensive guy, and any energy that you can spare him in penalty killing is a win.

- is Theo Fleury really your 4th best penalty killer? What about Igor Liba? Or Johnny Gottselig? Again, I'm not certain that either of these guys is better, but I doubt they were worse, either, and it at least spreads the icetime around a bit more.

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