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ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:45 PM
  #476
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Martin Brodeur

PP1: Markus Näslund - Peter Forsberg - Dino Ciccarelli, Denis Potvin - Flash Hollett

PP2: Mats Näslund - Darryl Sittler - Odie Cleghorn, Syd Howe - Glen Wesley

PK1: Derek Sanderson - Jan Erixon, Denis Potvin- Butch Bouchard

PK2: Edgar Laprade - Alf Skinner, Brad McCrimmon - Jamie Macoun

So did I solve my special teams needs or did I make it worse?
First PP unit looks good, but the 2nd unit looks kinda weak. I don't know if Syd Howe ever played point on the PP, but he was very versatile so I guess I can buy him doing it somewhat well. The pointmen on the 2nd unit are a weak spot considering I don't know if Howe was ever a pointman on a PP, and Wesley has broken 40 adjusted points just 3 times. I'd consider dropping Hollett to the 2nd unit to give it a true PPQB. He is kind of wasted next to Potvin on a first unit, you don't need both of them to run a PP. The wings on the 2nd unit lack punch also. PK on the other hand looks very good.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:54 PM
  #477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
Guess I'll throw my special teams out there for feedback as well.

PP1
Br. Hull - Yzerman - Anderson
Chelios - D. Bentley

PP2
Foyston - J. Primeau - Jirik (net front after draw)
L. Patrick - Vadnais

Can Hull play the majority of the PP since he is on the second line at even stregnth?

PK1
Tkaczuk - Galbraith
Schoenfeld - Chelios

PK2
Yzerman - Ellis
Engblom/Vadnais - Dutton

Thoughts?
PP units both look good. I'm not sure about Galbraith on a first PK unit, I know you found some more evidence of him being good defensively, which is good. Before all we had to go on was UH saying he was a great shadow. I'd prefer him on a 2nd unit. Ron Ellis didn't actually kill that many penalties, and seems out of place on an ATD PK. Get Joe Primeau onto your PK, he was known as a very good PKer in his day. From my bio last year:

Quote:
Not unlike Doug Gilmour years later, the slippery Primeau masterfully set up his two line mates time and time again, as well as acting as the line’s defensive conscience. He was as good a defensive center and penalty killer as there was in his day.
Quote:
In New York one night, with the Leafs two men short and a goal up on the Rangers, he ragged the puck for two solid minutes with Ranger players chasing him all over the ice. It was such a dauntless display that everybody in the arena cheered him as he staggered wearily to the bench, almost in a state of collapse, when his penalty-killing chore ended.
Quote:
Some people claim that the style of hockey played today makes stick checking of the old type, once used so sucessfully by the such "greats" as Frank Nighbor, Bill Thoms, Joe Primeau, and Frank Boucher, an ineffective skill.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:05 PM
  #478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I would rearrange your powerplay formation a bit. I'd do it like so:

Hull - Tkachuk - Bure
Fedorov - Gadsby

Datsyuk - MacLean - Fleury
Larson - Drinkwater
Who's going to take faceoffs on the first unit? Fedorov, and then have him drop back to the point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I haven't made a comprehensive list of who I consider the 64 best penalty killing forwards of all-time, but if I did, I doubt Miller would be on it. I agree that Miller was a very good penalty-killer, but I don't think he was great, and greatness is pretty much the standard on a top special-teams unit at this level.
I can buy Miller on a first PK unit here. He and Kevin Hatcher were basically the #1 PK forward and defenseman for the Capitals in the early 90s all the time, and the unit was always better than the league average, and sometimes significantly better. And it's not like they had an incredible goalie or supporting cast surrounding them either.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:05 PM
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I have said quite clearly that I think going out to ten seasons when comparing post-expansion players is the most sensible thing to do. You know exactly why I prefer the seven season standard when comparing scoring going back to the merger. White was an elite penalty-killer in Chicago for about five seasons.

And the rest of his career? Aren't you the guy who talked about how we need to pay more attention to "defensive longevity" in the draft? White has very little of it.
WRONG. We're talking a guy who played on the highest percentage of his team's PKs in history over the course of his career! It was a a relatively short career (9 years), but you don't kill that many peoples over the course of your career (a higher percentage han every other player who played since 1967) if you're not an elite penalty killer over his career.

I don't know where you're getting five years from, but you need to learn to count. His statistical penalty killing peak in Chicago was 6 years long. There is also statistical evidence that he greatly improved LA's penalty kill for the first two years he was there.

Seriously, how many all-time penalty killing defenemen have significantly penalty killing peaks longer that White? Definitely not Bobby Orr or Rod Langway or Jacques Lapperiere, all of whom had short peaks. Not Scott Stevens who didn't focus on being a shut down / penalty killing until 1994/95. Not Denis Potvin who, according to you, didn't peak offensively and defensively at the same time. Nicklas Lidstrom's was marginally little longer, but I don't think he became an elite PKer until 2000 or so and probably wasn't one anymore after 2010ish.

The only post-expansion guys I can think of with really long careers who were elite penalty killers for basically their entire careers were Chris Chelios and Ray Bourque, and those guys were freaks.

I mean seriously, Bill White had a short career, but it was no shorter than Bobby Orr's (edit: and barely shorter than Jacques Laperriere's), and White was an excellent penalty killer for basically his entire career.

Quote:
Johnson is only playing 2nd pairing minutes at even strength for your team. I don't think icetime management adequately explains your preference for Bob Dailey on the powerplay.
You're right, skillset is important there too, for the third time. Read my full post before responding next time, please

Quote:
This is really a post-expansion argument, and is especially thin as pertains to players in hugely exposed O6 markets like Montreal. Moreover, you are not consistent with your facts. You argue that Johnson got Norris consideration because his scoring spiked when he was put on the 1st unit powerplay, which is true enough, but you also keep saying the same thing about the relationship between Howell's scoring and his Norris results, and here it simply isn't true. Harry only beat his next best score by 4 points in 1966-67. The variable here that was substantially different was not Howell's scoring, but rather the fact that the Rangers were a playoff team for the first time in five years that season. There are multiple variables at work, and there were also often "makeup trophies" handed out by the writers in the O6 era, like Kennedy and Bathgate's Harts, and quite possibly Howell and Johnson's Norrises. You focus so much on the effect of raw scoring on Norris voting that you seem blinded to the other complexities of the system. Johnson probably was underrated before his Norris season, but not by as much as you seem to think, and not any more than Howell.

The basic insight that "hockey card stats" have distorted the voting in the post-expansion era because the writers don't get a good look at all of the players is valid, though even there I think you overdo it. But it applies very little to O6 hockey, if at all. During that era, it was team success which most distorted the opinions of the hockey writers. This phenomenon still persists in the post-expansion world, actually; it has not gone away. If you're playing in a crap market, you still need to be a superstar in order to get noticed. Second-tier stars or players who are quietly excellent (like Howell) do not get their due. This is the reason why, for example, Steve Shutt is considered better than Dave Taylor, who was just as good and had just as much chemistry with a superstar (Dionne, in this case) as did Shutt. But the former played for a dynasty team, and the latter for the Kings. Alas...
Disagree strongly with the bolded and I've already explained why, but then arguing with you about old Rangers players isn't exactly pleasant.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-16-2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old
03-16-2013, 01:12 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Since people seem to be doing special teams:

Powerplay:
PP1: Rick Nash - Nels Stewart - Jaromir Jagr
Ron Francis - Dan Boyle

PP2: Rick Vaive - Bernie Nicholls - Bill Mosienko
Sprague Cleghorn - Bert Corbeau

Penalty Kill:
PK1: Rod Brind'Amour - Kelly Miller - Craig Ludwig - Harry Howell
PK2: Ron Francis - Gaetan Duchesne - Sprague Cleghorn - Charlie Huddy
Get Rick Nash off the first PP unit. I don't care how - he just doesn't belong there. To the extent that he can play an offensive role in the ATD, he seems like he was a more effective even strength scoring than PP scorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
Guess I'll throw my special teams out there for feedback as well.

PP1
Br. Hull - Yzerman - Anderson
Chelios - D. Bentley

PP2
Foyston - J. Primeau - Jirik (net front after draw)
L. Patrick - Vadnais

Can Hull play the majority of the PP since he is on the second line at even stregnth?

PK1
Tkaczuk - Galbraith
Schoenfeld - Chelios

PK2
Yzerman - Ellis
Engblom/Vadnais - Dutton

Thoughts?
I would think Hull can occasionally take a long shift on the second unit, but you don't want to count on it all the time. It's what I picture Esposito doing.

I would think about swapping Lester Patrick and Chelios on the PP.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:13 PM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Who's going to take faceoffs on the first unit? Fedorov, and then have him drop back to the point?



I can buy Miller on a first PK unit here. He and Kevin Hatcher were basically the #1 PK forward and defenseman for the Capitals in the early 90s all the time, and the unit was always better than the league average, and sometimes significantly better. And it's not like they had an incredible goalie or supporting cast surrounding them either.
I remember that Tkachuk was an excellent face off guy in his teams building when playing for the blues but worthless away.. someone prolly has stats.

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03-16-2013, 01:20 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It was a a relatively short career (9 years), but you don't kill that many peoples over the course of your career (a higher percentage han every other player who played since 1967) if you're not an elite penalty killer over his career.
Good news for whoever has Dany Heatley...

ziiiiinnnnnnnnnnnng

Ok, I'll go crawl back into my hole until my next pick.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:28 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Get Rick Nash off the first PP unit. I don't care how - he just doesn't belong there. To the extent that he can play an offensive role in the ATD, he seems like he was a more effective even strength scoring than PP scorer.
Considering what he has had to work with over his career, his team's PP strength, and the fact that on this powerplay all he really has to do is finish..he just fine imo.

Even during the year Nash led the league in powerplay goals, his team was well below average on the PP.

Can only do so much on your own.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:29 PM
  #484
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More Bill White stats: Over the course of his 9 year career, his estimated even strength usage is 49% - basically half of the entire game at even strength.

His estimated PK usage is 65% - the highest career average ever! And his penalty killers were 12% better than league average over the course of his career - which is an incredible number. Obviously inflated somewhat by era, but come on.

By the way sturm, I agree with your post from the HOH defenseman project that Bill White, Fern Flaman, and Harry Howell seem about equal as overall players. Of them, the other two were much better rounded, but White was the elite penalty killer.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Considering what he has had to work with over his career, his team's PP strength, and the fact that on this powerplay all he really has to do is finish..he just fine imo.

Even during the year Nash led the league in powerplay goals, his team was well below average on the PP.

Can only do so much on your own.
The "can only do so much on your own" excuse has been used for Nash's entire career, and I don't buy it. True ATD-calibre first PP forwards don't have a problem producing on their own.

Full disclosure - I feel Nash has been the most overrated player in the NHL for years.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-16-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old
03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
WRONG. We're talking a guy who played on the highest percentage of his team's PKs in history over the course of his career! It was a a relatively short career (9 years), but you don't kill that many peoples over the course of your career (a higher percentage han every other player who played since 1967) if you're not an elite penalty killer over his career.

I don't know where you're getting five years from, but you need to learn to count. His statistical penalty killing peak in Chicago was 6 years long. There is also statistical evidence that he greatly improved LA's penalty kill for the first two years he was there.

Seriously, how many all-time penalty killing defenemen have significantly penalty killing peaks longer that White? Definitely not Bobby Orr or Rod Langway or Jacques Lapperiere, all of whom had short peaks. Not Scott Stevens who didn't focus on being a shut down / penalty killing until 1994/95. Not Denis Potvin who, according to you, didn't peak offensively and defensively at the same time. Nicklas Lidstrom's was marginally little longer, but I don't think he became an elite PKer until 2000 or so and probably wasn't one anymore after 2010ish.

The only post-expansion guys I can think of with really long careers who were elite penalty killers for basically their entire careers were Chris Chelios and Ray Bourque, and those guys were freaks.

I mean seriously, Bill White had a short career, but it was no shorter than Bobby Orr's (edit: and barely shorter than Jacques Laperriere's), and White was an excellent penalty killer for basically his entire career.
Don't forget that White was basically held hostage in the AHL for 5 seasons when he was clearly good enough to play in the NHL. I wouldn't say those were peak years or anything, but it's not like he only played for 9 seasons.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:31 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Good news for whoever has Dany Heatley...

ziiiiinnnnnnnnnnnng

Ok, I'll go crawl back into my hole until my next pick.
Hahahahaha, I had to reread my quote 3 times to figure out what you were talking about. I'm not going to edit it either, as its too funny.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:44 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
PP units both look good. I'm not sure about Galbraith on a first PK unit, I know you found some more evidence of him being good defensively, which is good. Before all we had to go on was UH saying he was a great shadow. I'd prefer him on a 2nd unit. Ron Ellis didn't actually kill that many penalties, and seems out of place on an ATD PK. Get Joe Primeau onto your PK, he was known as a very good PKer in his day. From my bio last year:
Yeah I'm hoping to find enough to substantiate putting Galbraith on the first unit, but I have to give nik credit for posting those first few snippets in the draft thread to start with.

Didn't Ellis kill penalties during parts of the summit series? That's an extremely small sample I guess. Either way, Primeau is probably better than him so I'm going to switch him on to the second unit with Yzerman (can't hurt to have two C's on the PK for faceoff purposes) and just have Ellis as an extra PKer depending on who's in the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would think Hull can occasionally take a long shift on the second unit, but you don't want to count on it all the time. It's what I picture Esposito doing.

I would think about swapping Lester Patrick and Chelios on the PP.
Yeah, that definitely makes more sense since Patrick is playing on the second pairing at even stregnth and not on the PK at all, while Chelios is on the first pairing and PK unit.

I'll make those changes. Thanks for the suggestions.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:55 PM
  #489
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Here's a more specific question:

How much do you guys think it matters to have a right handed shot clearing the zone on the PK? My thought is that having 2 guys with the opposite handedness is really useful on the powerplay, where it opens up more angles of attack. At even strength, I assume that a highly skilled puck handler/puck mover can play both sides, but a less skilled player should play his natural side unless proven otherwise.

I'm not sure what I think about the penalty kill though.

These are my defensemen:

LH: Paul Coffey, Tom Johnson, Lloyd Cook, Gary Bergman
RH: Bill White, Bob Dailey

My first PK pair will obviously be Tom Johnson - Bill White, and I think its a very good one (let's not use this post to re-argue that again )

What about my second PK pair? I think Bergman needs to be there. But Cook or Dailey? I think Cook is better, but does it matter that I'd have two lefties?

Does anyone even look at things this closely when evaluating teams?

Edit: I think I'm leaning towards putting Cook there and using Dailey as a spare on the PK.

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:00 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's a more specific question:

How much do you guys think it matters to have a right handed shot clearing the zone on the PK? My thought is that having 2 guys with the opposite handedness is really useful on the powerplay, where it opens up more angles of attack. At even strength, I assume that a highly skilled puck handler/puck mover can play both sides, but a less skilled player should play his natural side unless proven otherwise.

I'm not sure what I think about the penalty kill though.

These are my defensemen:

LH: Paul Coffey, Tom Johnson, Lloyd Cook, Gary Bergman
RH: Bill White, Bob Dailey

My first PK pair will obviously be Tom Johnson - Bill White, and I think its a very good one (let's not use this post to re-argue that again )

What about my second PK pair? I think Bergman needs to be there. But Cook or Dailey? I think Cook is better, but does it matter that I'd have two lefties?

Does anyone even look at things this closely when evaluating teams?
Can't you still draft better PKers than Dailey?

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03-16-2013, 02:02 PM
  #491
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Can't you still draft better PKers than Dailey?
Of course, but then I don't have a second RH shot for the powerplay if I bench Dailey.

I'm definitely leaning towards Lloyd Cook, a guy who I have who is already a better PKer than Dailey...

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:07 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
WRONG. We're talking a guy who played on the highest percentage of his team's PKs in history over the course of his career!
You are counting his time in LA now, I see. That is interesting, but getting a ton of PK time on a brand new expansion team means exactly what? Carol Vadnais got a ton of PK time on the Seals. Should we count Vadnais as an elite penalty killer in those years simply because of PK usage? Strangely, the Kings' penalty kill was very bad with White on it, and got a lot better the season after he was traded.

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03-16-2013, 02:10 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
You are counting his time in LA now, I see. That is interesting, but getting a ton of PK time on a brand new expansion team means exactly what? Carol Vadnais got a ton of PK time on the Seals. Should we count Vadnais as an elite penalty killer in those years simply because of PK usage? Strangely, the Kings' penalty kill was very bad with White on it, and got a lot better the season after he was traded.
Huh? This was in seventieslords' profile of White that I quoted upthread:

Quote:
The LA Kings took a bit of a tumble after trading White, too. In their two full seasons with White, they killed 79.73% of their penalties. In the two full seasons after, it was 76.43%. This was a 16% increase in goals against per opportunity.
I don't think those were really peak years for White, but they were something.

As for White/Vadnais. Over their careers, Vadnais killed 53% of his teams' penalties for average to slightly above average PKs (2% better than league average), White killed 65% of his teams penalties for excellent PKs (12% better than league average). Unfortunately, I don't have season-by-season numbers.

I think Vadnais is one of those players who was probably a lot better on the PK than defensively at even strength, because he didn't have to think much on the PK. I think he's a fine second unit penalty killer. Just like Bill White is a fine #1 penalty killer.

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03-16-2013, 02:19 PM
  #494
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Huh? This was in seventieslords' profile of White that I quoted upthread:

I don't think those were really peak years for White, but they were something.
seventies was abusing the hell out of the statistics in making that argument. Go and look it up yourself. In the three years White was a King (counting the season he was traded where he played more than half of the year in LA), the team was 13, 7 and 12 goals against above the league average on the penalty kill. Basically, they were terrible. In the two seasons after he was traded, they were 1 and 2 goals against below the average. For whatever reason (and I'm not saying it's because White was terrible, because I don't believe that), they were much better on the penalty kill after trading White, relative to the league. I don't think he was bad in LA, but it's really hard to square that fact with any claim that he was somehow elite.

seventies probably just didn't notice that PP success rate increased leaguewide simultaneous to White being traded, but whatever...that stat he put in White's profile is the definition of junk.


Last edited by Sturminator: 03-16-2013 at 02:24 PM. Reason: got a verb backwards
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03-16-2013, 02:26 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
seventies was abusing the hell out of the statistics in making that argument. Go and look it up yourself. In the three years White was a King (counting the season he was traded where he played more than half of the year in LA), the team was 13, 7 and 12 goals against above the league average on the penalty kill. Basically, they were terrible. In the two seasons after he was traded, they were 1 and 2 goals against below the average. For whatever reason (and I'm not saying it's because White was terrible, because I don't believe that), they were much better on the penalty kill after trading White, relative to the league. I don't think he was bad in LA, but it's really hard to square that fact with any claim that he was somehow elite.

seventies probably just didn't notice that PP success rate increased leaguewide simultaneous to White being traded, but whatever...that stat he put in White's profile is the definition of junk.
I don't have time to check now, but are you using total number of goals scored against while shorthanded or penalty kill percentage? Because it sounds like you are just using the number of goals, which is almost worthless in determining the quality of the PK. as it depeds more on the number of penalties taken.

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03-16-2013, 02:32 PM
  #496
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The "can only do so much on your own" excuse has been used for Nash's entire career, and I don't buy it. True ATD-calibre first PP forwards don't have a problem producing on their own.

Full disclosure - I feel Nash has been the most overrated player in the NHL for years.
I used to think the same but the 2010 Olympic selection (for the second time) and watching him more closely has changed my mind.

Secondly, before I drafted him I checked the evidence I could find.

Like.. leading the league in powerplay goals on a powerplay that was a full 2% lower than the league average PP.

ie. Producing on his own.

So.. it isn't just an excuse imo.

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03-16-2013, 02:37 PM
  #497
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I used to think the same but the 2010 Olympic selection (for the second time) and watching him more closely has changed my mind.

Secondly, before I drafted him I checked the evidence I could find.

Like.. leading the league in powerplay goals on a powerplay that was a full 2% lower than the league average PP.

So.. it isn't just an excuse imo.
Come on - he led the league in powerplay goals once (in 2004) in a season during which he only had 16 assists combined. That's his only top 10 in powerplay goals. I haven't looked up his PP point totals, just goals, because those rankings are hard to find, and really... it's not like he was ever much of a point producer due to lack of assists.

I could maybe buy him as a bargain basement net guy, but he's not even going to be that, because Nels Stewart is your net guy. I really don't think you want to run a PP with only one competent passer up front, even if that guy is as good as Jagr. IMO, you'd be much better off with Monsienko or Nicholls up there.

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03-16-2013, 02:41 PM
  #498
Rob Scuderi
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Here's a more specific question:

How much do you guys think it matters to have a right handed shot clearing the zone on the PK? My thought is that having 2 guys with the opposite handedness is really useful on the powerplay, where it opens up more angles of attack. At even strength, I assume that a highly skilled puck handler/puck mover can play both sides, but a less skilled player should play his natural side unless proven otherwise.

I'm not sure what I think about the penalty kill though.

These are my defensemen:

LH: Paul Coffey, Tom Johnson, Lloyd Cook, Gary Bergman
RH: Bill White, Bob Dailey

My first PK pair will obviously be Tom Johnson - Bill White, and I think its a very good one (let's not use this post to re-argue that again )

What about my second PK pair? I think Bergman needs to be there. But Cook or Dailey? I think Cook is better, but does it matter that I'd have two lefties?

Does anyone even look at things this closely when evaluating teams?

Edit: I think I'm leaning towards putting Cook there and using Dailey as a spare on the PK.
I try to look at it, but I also know only a handful of people in this draft are going to call me on having six left-handed defensemen at the same time, if that makes sense.

Clearing the puck out of the zone on your backhand is a skill certain players have (Kasatonov is one of them so I get to subvert the 6 LHS thing for one guy) but it's difficult in general. This becomes a bigger issue when you're mucking along the boards on the PK and have to try to whack it with some velocity or chip it off the glass, while on the backhand. When you have space or get possession of the puck with your back to your goalie obviously it doesn't really matter what handedness you are.

Ideally, I think you have a LHS-RHS on their proper sides while PKing just to make clears more easy, or just those particular types of clears along the walls. But you don't compromise who your best guys are for the sake of it. I'm obviously going to be a team without that balance on the second unit.

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03-16-2013, 02:43 PM
  #499
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I don't have time to check now, but are you using total number of goals scored against while shorthanded or penalty kill percentage? Because it sounds like you are just using the number of goals, which is almost worthless in determining the quality of the PK. as it depeds more on the number of penalties taken.
LA's PPOA fell quite a bit the season after White was traded, so yes, that had a lot to do with it, but their actual PK% changed by less than one percent. And of course, White, himself, one of the biggest problems in terms of penalties in his first season in LA (though he was much better in year two). There's nothing much in the numbers which suggests that he was unusually good as a King.

edit: it should also be noted that seventies neglected to mention the fact that Chicago had a tremendous penalty kill the year that they traded for White (in which he played 21 of 76 games for the Hawks), and that their PK percentage actually fell sharply in his first full season as a Blackhawk. Team stats, when correctly sliced and lightly fried in a batter of credulity, can be used to make a lot of arguments. The biggest part of the argument for Bill White as an all-time elite penalty killer seems to be based upon his team stats in Chicago and his usage rate, and that's ok...we can use team stats in that way, but it helps to take the whole team into account.

You want to know who also joined the Blackhawks as a full-time starter the season they traded for White? Tony Esposito.


Last edited by Sturminator: 03-16-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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03-16-2013, 02:53 PM
  #500
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Come on - he led the league in powerplay goals once (in 2004) in a season during which he only had 16 assists combined. That's his only top 10 in powerplay goals.
Who was Nash supposed to be passing to?

Just FYI, he scores at a greater rate on the PP than Daniel Alfredsson does while playing on much, much worse powerplays.

He isn't the playmaker Alfredsoon is of course but he also hasn't had XXXXX's and Heatley's to pass to which makes it even worse.

I think this year is showing that when Nash realizes he doesn't have to do everything himself his goals/assists start to level out a bit.

Anyways on a powerplay featuring Jagr and Ron Francis I don't need to worry about playmaking.

Quote:
I could maybe buy him as a bargain basement net guy, but he's not even going to be that, because Nels Stewart is your net guy. I really don't think you want to run a PP with only one competent passer up front, even if that guy is as good as Jagr. IMO, you'd be much better off with Monsienko or Nicholls up there.
Well, you're welcome to your opinion, of course.

I think he is good there because his size and skating retrieving the puck, puck possession, and trigger that will benefit the other guys on that PP by giving them another option.

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