How much do you guys think it matters to have a right handed shot clearing the zone on the PK? My thought is that having 2 guys with the opposite handedness is really useful on the powerplay, where it opens up more angles of attack. At even strength, I assume that a highly skilled puck handler/puck mover can play both sides, but a less skilled player should play his natural side unless proven otherwise.
I'm not sure what I think about the penalty kill though.
These are my defensemen:
LH: Paul Coffey, Tom Johnson, Lloyd Cook, Gary Bergman
RH: Bill White, Bob Dailey
My first PK pair will obviously be Tom Johnson - Bill White, and I think its a very good one (let's not use this post to re-argue that again )
What about my second PK pair? I think Bergman needs to be there. But Cook or Dailey? I think Cook is better, but does it matter that I'd have two lefties?
Does anyone even look at things this closely when evaluating teams?
Edit: I think I'm leaning towards putting Cook there and using Dailey as a spare on the PK.
Personally I think it matters a lot more whether or not a defenseman is used to playing one side or the other.
Obviously going back on your strong hand is different than the wrong hand but if a guy was a left handed shot playing right d for a lot of his career obviously he knows what he is doing. If you stick a guy there and he hasn't done it much it will take adjustment for sure.
On the powerplay I think it can go either way. I actually think it is sometimes helpful to have a canon facing the center of the ice to get better shots if you have a guy that can do that.
If you have a forward who plays off the half boards who is the same hand as the defenseman facing the middle it also makes for a nice situation where you can triangle a defender (with a net presence) and open up an option for one of them to cut in to the net as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi
I try to look at it, but I also know only a handful of people in this draft are going to call me on having six left-handed defensemen at the same time, if that makes sense.
Again, imo it depends on the players more than it is a strict rule.
Just FYI, he scores at a greater rate on the PP than Daniel Alfredsson does while playing on much, much worse powerplays.
He isn't the playmaker Alfredsoon is of course but he also hasn't had XXXXX's and Heatley's to pass to which makes it even worse.
I think this year is showing that when Nash realizes he doesn't have to do everything himself his goals/assists start to level out a bit.
Anyways on a powerplay featuring Jagr and Ron Francis I don't need to worry about playmaking.
Well, you're welcome to your opinion, of course.
I think he is good there because his size and skating retrieving the puck, puck possession, and trigger that will benefit the other guys on that PP by giving them another option.
If Nash is lucky, he'll break the top 20 in points for the second time in his career this season! Although he's not currently on pace to do it. His top points finish is tied for 18th in 2008-09. Honestly, that's a horrendous offensive record for a top powerplay guy who isn't a powerplay specialist.
My two bottom pairings are right/left pairings, but my top pairing is a right/right. My #1 defenseman played in real life with a right-handed, huge, rushing parter - I would suggest that Elmer Vasko is actually a reincarnation of Si Griffis, but they occupied the same mortal coil from 1935 to 1950. Can't be true.
More Bill White stats: Over the course of his 9 year career, his estimated even strength usage is 49% - basically half of the entire game at even strength.
His estimated PK usage is 65% - the highest career average ever! And his penalty killers were 12% better than league average over the course of his career - which is an incredible number. Obviously inflated somewhat by era, but come on.
Highest career average since the stats were recorded starting in 1967, anyway. And since defenseman usage pattern changed to the modern usage pattern in 1980, it's no surprise that a player who peaked in the 1970s is #1.
Laperriere is actually #1 with a lower GP cutoff. And speaking of Laperriere, why do you say that his PK peak is shorter than White's? Because part of it is not statistically documented?
Other plays with fairly significant PP experience:
- Bob Pulford / Ralph Backstrom / Claude Provost / Leo Labine
- According to Sturminator, Vladimir Lutchenko has experience.
Forwards on both units will be rotated depending on game situations.
Other players with with fairly significant SH experience:
- Leo Labine / Gilbert Perreault (8 SH goals) / Tom Lysiak (8 SH goals)
- Spare Reggie Fleming has some fill-in time on both units (NHL...11 PP / 3 SH \\\ with 2 yrs in WHA...8 PP /1 SH)
- I don't know about Leduc, while strong on the body, Leduc was more a PMD and a bit of a yahoo
Highest career average since the stats were recorded starting in 1967, anyway. And since defenseman usage pattern changed to the modern usage pattern in 1980, it's no surprise that a player who peaked in the 1970s is #1.
Laperriere is actually #1 with a lower GP cutoff. And speaking of Laperriere, why do you say that his PK peak is shorter than White's? Because part of it is not statistically documented?
Huh?
I just did a search for posts in this thread by me where the word "laperriere" is mentioned and I still don't know what you are talking about. Edit: Pretty sure you misread my post.
I have exactly two posts mentioning him and here they are:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
I mean seriously, Bill White had a short career, but it was no shorter than Bobby Orr's (edit: and barely shorter than Jacques Laperriere's), and White was an excellent penalty killer for basically his entire career.
Bill White = 604 NHL games (and a lot of other games where Eddie Shore wouldn't let him leave the Cleveland Indians to play in the NHL if that matters to you)
Bobby Orr = 657 NHL games
Jacques Laperriere = 697 NHL games
I pretty much said the exact opposite that you think I said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Bill White, Bobby Orr, Serge Savard, Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens, Derian Hatcher, Chris Pronger in rough chronological order. That's 8. Add Jacques Laperriere if you consider him post-expansion. Maybe Lidstrom, Maybe Chara - but I think those two were more dominant defensively at even strength. With the exception of Hatcher, those guys are better overall than White, but that's because of offense and transition game, neither of which matters on the PK. Edit: Maybe I should have added Chara now that I think about it. That gets you to 9 post-expansion guys on the absolute top level, and yes, I think White is one of them. Double edit: Forgot Potvin and Langway. FAIL
The second quote by me is kind of embarrassing as I quickly listed who I consider the top penalty killers here and forgot some key ones, but anyway I never said what you claim I did.
Tsygankov is legandary with his 3-on-5 penalty kills for the Soviets against the Czechs and Canadians! Gerard is known for his puckhandling and leadership. and Hajt is respected for stats and defensive-first attitude, Reardon a more wild-determined defender, so... I personally think Gerard-Tsygankov, Hajt-Reardon a better pairing for pk units... but all four bring specific skillsets of all-time skill! Quality, either way.
Tsygankov is legandary with his 3-on-5 penalty kills for the Soviets against the Czechs and Canadians! Gerard is known for his puckhandling and leadership. and Hajt is respected for stats and defensive-first attitude, Reardon a more wild-determined defender, so... I personally think Gerard-Tsygankov, Hajt-Reardon a better pairing for pk units... but all four bring specific skillsets of all-time skill! Quality, either way.
Great thank you, I did see that quote referring to Tsygankov killing those 5-3's for Russia, would that merit him enough to be a 1st unit PK defenseman I really don't know.
I did see that quote referring to Tsygankov killing those 5-3's for Russia, would that merit him enough to be a 1st unit PK defenseman I really don't know.
He only was a top pker and leader for one of the elite teams in hockey for the era, anywhere! He was also an impact player in one of the greatest hockey games ever, the 3-3 tie in Montreal against the Habs in 1975, pairing with Lutchenko in stifling an NHL dynasty team.
Olympic champion, 1972
Olympic champion, 1976
World Champion, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1978, 1979
European Champion, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1978, 1979
Champion of USSR, 1970–73, 1975, 1977–79
Participant of the Summit Series, 1972
Winner of 1979 Challenge Cup
After drafting Pahlsson that completes our Special Teams line up:
PP 1:
Lindsay – Savard – Conacher
Svedberg – Rousseau
PP 2:
Sedin - Kennedy - Marleau
Gerard - Grant
PK 1:
Kasper - Pahlsson
Hajt - Gerard
PK 2:
Kennedy - Rousseau
Reardon- Tysgankov
You have Kenny Reardon on the PK, but not PP? You've got that backwards IMO. He had a cannon of a shot, but was very unpredictable. I'd completely switch Reardon and Grant on your units there.
edit:
Reardon has one of the best self-quotes ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
I couldn't skate, I couldn't shoot, and I wasn't very intelligent. But I was spectacular.
He only was a top pker and leader for one of the elite teams in hockey for the era, anywhere! He was also an impact player in one of the greatest hockey games ever, the 3-3 tie in Montreal against the Habs in 1975, pairing with Lutchenko in stifling an NHL dynasty team.
I actually just watched that game (I've been going through the old Super Series 75-76' videos...they are awesome), and it should be noted that the Soviet penalty killers at this point were basically just the top two units, with the freshest guys going on first. The Vasiliev - xxxxx duo would come on to kill penalties first in the shift just as often as the Lutchenko - Tsygankov duo, just as Mikhailov/[Petrov or Kharlamov] would swap out first shift duties with Z/A.
I don't mean to diminish Tsygankov's accomplishments here, only to point out that calling him a "top pker" for the Red Army team is kind of a misnomer in western terms, because it was really a variable rotation of four defensemen, all of whom got roughly equal icetime on the penalty kill.
Last edited by Sturminator: 03-17-2013 at 02:50 AM.
Reason: ok, VanI
I actually just watched that game (I've been going through the old Super Series 75-76' videos...they are awesome), and it should be noted that the Soviet penalty killers at this point were basically just the top two units, with the freshest guys going on first. The Vasiliev - XXXXX duo would come on to kill penalties first in the shift just as often as the Lutchenko - Tsygankov duo, just as Mikhailov/[Petrov or Kharlamov] would swap out first shift duties with Zhluktov/Alexandrov.
I saw that game two years ago and I recall posting about it: Petrov SUCKED!! I was recruiting for the ATD and Petrov disappointed with his fancy efforts that more often resulted in turnovers than anything. XXXXX did impress me, but he's undrafted (so far) so you should edit him out of your line-up advice/discussion post!!
After drafting Pahlsson that completes our Special Teams line up:
PP 1:
Lindsay – Savard – Conacher
Svedberg – Rousseau
PP 2:
Sedin - Kennedy - Marleau
Gerard - Grant
PK 1:
Kasper - Pahlsson
Hajt - Gerard
PK 2:
Kennedy - Rousseau
Reardon- Tysgankov
Very strong forwards on the top powerplay unit, but weak pointmen who are soft defensively. They may be vulnerable to elite PK forwards who can take it to the house the other way. Denis Savard is probably the real "QB" of this powerplay, so I would try to set up a system where the puck stays down low a lot and the pointmen aren't overburdened with puckhandling duties. I have tried to be fair to Svedberg, but based on his scoring at the national team level, at least, I don't think I'd want him on a top unit powerplay. Rousseau can play on a first unit, but he is not high-end in that role.
Strong second unit, all-around. I don't have any problem with Eddie Gerard's offense on a second PP - he was definitely a two-way player, and had a good deal of skill. Grant, I don't know much about, but he seems to have had a good deal of skill. Generally strong forwards.
Kasper is good, but I'm not a fan of Sami Pahlsson on an ATD top PK. It's another issue of "defensive longevity", I think. Pahlsson was awesome at his peak as a Duck, but he took a long time getting there, got a bit banged up, and really only stayed on top for a couple of seasons. He's a bit like Kelly Miller on a top PK - a very good defensive forward put in a role where he needs to be great just to be average, and I don't think Pahlsson actually was "great" when his whole career is taken in perspective. Sami would be fine on a second PK, but I might consider swapping him with Ted Kennedy. Gerard is probably somewhere around the average for a #1 defenseman on the PK. Hajt is only adequate, but I don't know who you have that is better. It's not going to be a very good 1st unit PK, but then I guess you know that. You invested heavily in scoring forwards.
The second unit PK looks good. I know Reardon was considered something of a kamikaze, but I think that was really at even strength, and he did have a strong defensive reputation. I think he's good as a 2nd unit PKer, and may be a better candidate than Hajt for the top unit. I'm not the best informed around here about Reardon, though, so I may be off on that one. Tsygankov is good on a 2nd unit, and I generally like the forwards. I'm not really sure how much those two actually killed penalties in real life, but Kennedy and Rousseau have the defensive reputations to do a good job in their roles here.
When is the myth going to end that Svedberg was soft?
I said he was soft defensively, meaning not very good, which is true relative to other ATD 1st unit powerplay pointmen. It wasn't a comment on his physical game.
I said he was soft defensively, meaning not very good, which is true relative to other ATD 1st unit powerplay pointmen. It wasn't a comment on his physical game.
On the PP he's not worse than other 1st unit defensemen like Coffey or Hollett.
On the PP he's not worse than other 1st unit defensemen like Coffey or Hollett.
Hollett I agree with, but you're not being fair to Paul Coffey here. Paul wasn't great in his own zone at even strength, but he was a defenseman, and knew how to play his position. As far as I know, Svedberg didn't even start playing defense until he joined the national team in 1965, at the age of 21.
He's a bit like Kelly Miller on a top PK - a very good defensive forward put in a role where he needs to be great just to be average, and I don't think Pahlsson actually was "great" when his whole career is taken in perspective.
Gah. I'd love to know the credentials of the non-star but well known pkers in this that make them better than guys like Miller.
Seems to me that pre-expansion guys with a couple of articles about how they killed penalties well (but not backed up by numbers because they weren't tracked) are better than guys now who have those articles and numbers but unfortunately we actually saw them.
Miller stacks up very favourably with guys who are known as upper level penalty killers in this..
Quote:
Hajt is only adequate, but I don't know who you have that is better.
If Hajt is only adequate than most defensemen are inadequate.
Hollett I agree with, but you're not being fair to Paul Coffey here. Paul wasn't great in his own zone at even strength, but he was a defenseman, and knew how to play his position. As far as I know, Svedberg didn't even start playing defense until he joined the national team in 1965, at the age of 21.
No, he started playing defense in '63 becasue he was good defensively as a forward and they needed playmaking from the back end (and rushing). He actually scored more points in Div. 1 as a defenseman.
I just did a search for posts in this thread by me where the word "laperriere" is mentioned and I still don't know what you are talking about. Edit: Pretty sure you misread my post.
I have exactly two posts mentioning him and here they are:
Bill White = 604 NHL games (and a lot of other games where Eddie Shore wouldn't let him leave the Cleveland Indians to play in the NHL if that matters to you)
Bobby Orr = 657 NHL games
Jacques Laperriere = 697 NHL games
I pretty much said the exact opposite that you think I said.
The second quote by me is kind of embarrassing as I quickly listed who I consider the top penalty killers here and forgot some key ones, but anyway I never said what you claim I did.
I guess I read something into your posts (and 70s old post you quoted) that wasn't there. NVM about Laperriere.
All evidence suggests White was an excellent penalty killer but I still think it's a bit misleading to say " he killed the highest percentage of his team's penalties of all time." Simply because the stats weren't recorded before 67 and d-man usage changed a decade later, and White's career is right in that sweet spot to have a high percentage score for PK usage,
Gah. I'd love to know the credentials of the non-star but well known pkers in this that make them better than guys like Miller.
Seems to me that pre-expansion guys with a couple of articles about how they killed penalties well (but not backed up by numbers because they weren't tracked) are better than guys now who have those articles and numbers but unfortunately we actually saw them.
To whom are you referring? Guys like Nick Metz? Or elite prewar defensive forwards like Pit Lepine and Jack Walker? Yeah, I think these guys are all better penalty killers than Kelly Miller.
Quote:
If Hajt is only adequate than most defensemen are inadequate.
He killed on the penalty kill.
Ehhh...there are only 64 spots for defensemen on ATD top unit penalty kills. If Hajt is one of the 64 best penalty-killing defensemen of all-time, he's probably close to the bottom of that list. I wouldn't take him over his own partner, Schoenfeld. Hajt was a very strong penalty killer, but he wasn't physical at all, and it would be easy to overrate him by looking at team stats considering that he was often the fourth best player on that Buffalo PK, behind Schoenfeld, Ramsay and Luce.
No, he started playing defense in '63 becasue he was good defensively as a forward and they needed playmaking from the back end (and rushing). He actually scored more points in Div. 1 as a defenseman.
Very well, he started playing defense at 19. I still strongly doubt he was as good defensively as Paul Coffey. Based on the information we have at this point, I think Svedberg is in over his head on an ATD 1st unit powerplay.
Very well, he started playing defense at 19. I still strongly doubt he was as good defensively as Paul Coffey. Based on the information we have at this point, I think Svedberg is in over his head on an ATD 1st unit powerplay.
The only reason I would agree with you is because his career was cut so short. He passed away at 26 so he have basically zero career value.
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