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ATD 2013 Lineup Advice Thread

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:49 AM
  #526
Darth Yoda
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Very well, he started playing defense at 19. I still strongly doubt he was as good defensively as Paul Coffey. Based on the information we have at this point, I think Svedberg is in over his head on an ATD 1st unit powerplay.
What i take from his stats in the three straight World Championships where he was voted to the All-Star Team is that he was probably better than Coffey defensively, but pretty far off the target offensively. But, a short career and i think Coffey got better defensively with age?

Edit: I must say his scoring the swedish league also supports this since he was somewhat heavily outdistanced by the forwards in scoring. This in a lower tier league.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 03-17-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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03-17-2013, 11:04 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What i take from his stats in the three straight World Championships where he was voted to the All-Star Team is that he was probably better than Coffey defensively, but pretty far off the target offensively. But, a short career and i think Coffey got better defensively with age?

Edit: I must say his scoring the swedish league also supports this since he was heavily outdistanced by the forwards in scoring. This in a lower tier league.
Should be noted that Svedberg had alot of secondary and third assists, something that was a bit iffy to keep track on back then (we still dont keep track on third today)

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03-17-2013, 11:27 AM
  #528
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Should be noted that Svedberg had alot of secondary and third assists, something that was a bit iffy to keep track on back then (we still dont keep track on third today)
Could be the case, but is this like proven somehow? In many statlines it seems to be have to be proven becouse it just does'nt look like it as a whole. You look at a guy like Jan Suchy and gets a little blushed.

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03-17-2013, 12:18 PM
  #529
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Considering 3 alternate captains on my team, as Trevor Linden and Jack Adams bring very different things to my team culture - a quintessential good guy respected by just about everyone, and a loudmouth alpha cheerleader. Obviously, Sakic already has the C, with Pilote getting a very obvious A. Does the ATD at large have a problem with 3 As?

On a more frivolous note, not sure what jersey numbers to assign the following: Jack Adams, Joe Hall, Si Griffis, Tom Anderson, and Yevgeny Babich. Yup, the old guys and one fairly obscure Soviet. 4, 5, 7, 12-15, 17, 18, 21, 22, 24-27 and various silly training camp numbers are available. If one of them wants to be #10 I would gladly take that away from Corey Perry and make him wear #61.

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03-17-2013, 12:57 PM
  #530
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If Jan Erixon is a very good 1st unit Pk'er then there is no question at all that Pahllson should not be as well, did you see those figures Nik posted??

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03-17-2013, 01:03 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
If Jan Erixon is a very good 1st unit Pk'er then there is no question at all that Pahllson should not be as well, did you see those figures Nik posted??
Pahlsson is far behind Erixon. Pahlsson has one playoff as an elite checker and about two or three seasons as great one.

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03-17-2013, 01:38 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
No, he started playing defense in '63 becasue he was good defensively as a forward and they needed playmaking from the back end (and rushing). He actually scored more points in Div. 1 as a defenseman.
Sorry I donīt wanīt to be rude and interfere in your game too much, but these are very intresting discussions. If this is not allowed please tell me.

I have seen some evidence on Svedbergs defensive skills, but isnīt it true that he was paired in national team with this big rough defensemen (whose name I quess I canīt say) who was more known from his defensive skills? I have always thought that they had clear strenghts and roles. When Red Wings offered Svedberg contract they wanted this guy also which has made me think that he kind of needed him. I can be wrong though.

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03-17-2013, 01:53 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Sorry I donīt wanīt to be rude and interfere in your game too much, but these are very intresting discussions. If this is not allowed please tell me.

I have seen some evidence on Svedbergs defensive skills, but isnīt it true that he was paired in national team with this big rough defensemen (whose name I quess I canīt say) who was more known from his defensive skills? I have always thought that they had clear strenghts and roles. When Red Wings offered Svedberg contract they wanted this guy also which has made me think that he kind of needed him. I can be wrong though.
It's not rude.

I'm not saying Svedberg was an defensive stalwart, defense is definitly his weakness. I'm saying that he is not a risk on the PP more than any other defenseman.

and you can say names in this thread, its only the main thread that its a concern.

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03-17-2013, 02:43 PM
  #534
Rob Scuderi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanf View Post
Sorry I donīt wanīt to be rude and interfere in your game too much, but these are very intresting discussions. If this is not allowed please tell me.

I have seen some evidence on Svedbergs defensive skills, but isnīt it true that he was paired in national team with this big rough defensemen (whose name I quess I canīt say) who was more known from his defensive skills? I have always thought that they had clear strenghts and roles. When Red Wings offered Svedberg contract they wanted this guy also which has made me think that he kind of needed him. I can be wrong though.
Please don't hesitate to chime in. So few of the people in these drafts have meaningful insight into European players. Like jkrx said, you can mention undrafted players outside of the draft threads. Some people are just paranoid and never mention them in any thread including the bios for whatever reasons.

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03-17-2013, 03:33 PM
  #535
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Not mentioning people in the bio thread is silly, since the bios are designed for long term use. I don't like mentioning them anywhere else though.

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03-17-2013, 04:17 PM
  #536
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Ok, back to my defensemen, and how I use them.

At even strength, I have:

Pierre Pilote (RHS, two-way, small) - Si Griffis (RHS, fast, very large)
This puts Pilote with a guy who compensates for his only major drawback, and very much resembles his real life partner in many respects.

Eduard Ivanov (LHS, physical, two-way) - Sylvio Mantha (RHS, defensive with two-way ability)
This will be a grittier pairing than the first one, and will be matched against lines that require this approach.

Steve Duchesne (LHS, offensive, puck mover) - Joe Hall (RHS, physical with two-way ability)
Hall is babysitting here. This pairing will also be accompanied by Sakic's line.

---

Pilote, Duchesne, and forward Doug Weight occupy 3 of 4 PP point positions.
All 5 of Pilote, Mantha, Griffis, Hall and Ivanov are options for the PK. Keeping the top 2 pairings together is an option, but Joe Hall's physicality and shot-blocking would be missed. It's safe to say that Mantha is on the top unit.

I'm assuming ice time breaks down this way:
18, 15 and 12 minutes for the even strength pairings = 45 minutes
4 minutes each for the 1st special teams units = 53 minutes
3 minutes each for the 2nd special teams units = 59 minutes
a 1 minute bump for my top 2 defensemen for critical situations = 60 minutes.

This way, the most a single player can play is 27 and the least is 12. Seems reasonable to me.

Right now, here are my horses, listed in draft order, with the minutes they currently have:
1. Pilote - 23 minutes (18 + 4 + 1 + ?)
2. Mantha - 20 minutes (15 + 4 + 1 + ?)
3. Griffis - 18 minutes (18 + ?)
4. Hall - 12 minutes (12 + ?)
5. Ivanov - 15 minutes (15 + ?)
6. Duchesne - 16 minutes (12 + 4)

I have 10 minutes of PK time and 3 minutes of powerplay time to spread around.

At first blush, my tendency would be to go with Mantha on the powerplay (23 minutes total) and PK unites of Mantha - Ivanov and Pilote - Hall. The biggest question marks on this approach would be:
-#5 drafted defenseman Ivanov (19 mins) playing more than #3 drafted Griffis (18 mins).
-#4 drafted defenseman Hall playing the fewest minutes out of anyone (15).

I would defend this by saying that Griffis and Hall's minutes will be tougher than others due to Griffis being on the top ES pairing and Hall's physicality, but is there a better way to do this?

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Old
03-17-2013, 07:20 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I guess I read something into your posts (and 70s old post you quoted) that wasn't there. NVM about Laperriere.

All evidence suggests White was an excellent penalty killer but I still think it's a bit misleading to say " he killed the highest percentage of his team's penalties of all time." Simply because the stats weren't recorded before 67 and d-man usage changed a decade later, and White's career is right in that sweet spot to have a high percentage score for PK usage,
I guess I've become so familiar with them that I just assume that everyone assumes the usage stats don't go back before expansion.

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03-17-2013, 07:32 PM
  #538
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OK, here's a thought.

I was loathe to breakup my Propp/Poulin/Kerr line but now I've picked Viktor Shuvalov and the more I think of it the more I'm leaning towards altering my line-up.

a) Place Shuvalov as the 2nd line CTR.
b) Move Poulin to the 4th line CTR.
c) Move Lysiak to the spares.
or
d) Just replace Lysiak with Shuvalov as the 4th line CTR.

I get to keep Poulin as a key PKer, making him also a top notch 4th liner and add a quality, 2-way CTR with a strong resume to the 2nd line.

Only questions I have.

a) Shuvalov was a big fish in a small pond during his domestic league games(?) but was more than solid internationally....does he have it to be a 2nd line CTR?

b) I would have to place him as the 2nd unit PP CTR and I have no info whats-so-ever on him playing on a PK or PP anywhere.....is it an assumption, given the small and sketchy info on him as a very good playmaker?

c) Proceed and add either Pulford and/or Backstrom as the 2nd unit PP CTR?

d) Proceeding and losing some bit of grit with dropping Lysiak.....is it worth it?

I just get the feeling that Shuvalov is too good to be a spare.

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Old
03-17-2013, 07:57 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
a) Shuvalov was a big fish in a small pond during his domestic league games(?) but was more than solid internationally....does he have it to be a 2nd line CTR?
I think not. He's a classic extra skater question mark. The Soviets and Czechs of the 1970s-1980s were as good as the best of their era, at least their national teams were competitive against NHLers. But 1950s Europeans??????????? They never played against the world's best of their era, and so we can't rightly know if they would have done well or not. It's an open question. Certainly, Soviet hockey made great strides in the 1960s, so really putting a 1950s player on the BENCH against all-time great competition is a no brainer. Do it. From the bench he would get a chance to compete in training camp and on a part-time sub role, but not relied on, so it's a win-win situation, a lottery ticket, as you will.

Quote:
I just get the feeling that Shuvalov is too good to be a spare.
He's good enough for the ATD (or MLD first line at worst) but the question mark regarding his role and effectiveness against the best of his era let alone all time is huge, so ATD 4th line or bench is best.

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03-18-2013, 02:05 AM
  #540
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I saw that game two years ago and I recall posting about it: Petrov SUCKED!! I was recruiting for the ATD and Petrov disappointed with his fancy efforts that more often resulted in turnovers than anything. XXXXX did impress me, but he's undrafted (so far) so you should edit him out of your line-up advice/discussion post!!
Oh, so Petrov "sucked" but 'XXXXX' "impressed". I don't know what game you've been watching, but at least in the Habs vs CSKA game I've seen it was XXXXX who was responsible at least for the more dangerous turnovers (near the goal etc.). Petrov definitely made a few bad passes in the game (then again, he also set up Kharlamov's goal brilliantly), but comparing him so unfavourably to you-know-who is really not fair.

Here is some of what I'm talking about (XXXXX for you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPacuJ-H5mw&t=50m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPacuJ-H5mw&t=85m41s

You got any examples of Petrov (as bad as those)?

Edit: Sorry, I didn't link the first one properly. Fixed.

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03-18-2013, 08:31 AM
  #541
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Oh, so Petrov "sucked" but 'XXXXX' "impressed". I don't know what game you've been watching, but at least in the Habs vs CSKA game I've seen it was XXXXX who was responsible at least for the more dangerous turnovers (near the goal etc.). Petrov definitely made a few bad passes in the game (then again, he also set up Kharlamov's goal brilliantly), but comparing him so unfavourably to you-know-who is really not fair.

Here is some of what I'm talking about (XXXXX for you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPacuJ-H5mw&t=50m35s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPacuJ-H5mw&t=85m41s

You got any examples of Petrov (as bad as those)?

Edit: Sorry, I didn't link the first one properly. Fixed.
Truthfully, I think both Petrov and xxxxx were somewhat disappointing in the 1975-76 Superseries, as a whole. Petrov, did make an excellent pass to Kharlamov for a beautiful goal against Montreal and showed (twice) against the Rangers that at least one Soviet player had mastered the slapshot, but he was also invisible throughout stretches of this series. xxxxx was also something of a turnover machine - you're right about that.

I'm actually working on a video study of the old Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhailov line (and the deveolpment of Soviet hockey, in general, through the mid-70's) - starting with the 1974 Summit Series (which is the oldest video I can find of the K-P-M line, and at any rate is quite early in their time together), going through the 1975-76 Superseries (sadly the 1976 Canada Cup is worthless for my purposes, as K-P-M did not play), and ending in the 1979 Challenge Cup and 1979-80 Superseries. It is fascinating work...much more entertaining than crunching through old statistics. Maybe you'd be interested in helping me, or giving your thoughts parallel to mine (two heads are always better than one)? I'll drop you a line.

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03-18-2013, 11:31 AM
  #542
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Interesting the work on Petrov since i own him here. One thing we need not worry about are his overall scoring against north american pros.

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03-18-2013, 12:45 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Truthfully, I think both Petrov and xxxxx were somewhat disappointing in the 1975-76 Superseries, as a whole. Petrov, did make an excellent pass to Kharlamov for a beautiful goal against Montreal and showed (twice) against the Rangers that at least one Soviet player had mastered the slapshot, but he was also invisible throughout stretches of this series. xxxxx was also something of a turnover machine - you're right about that.
Was Petrov (mostly) invisible in the Rangers game? It could be, I don't watch that game very often. And oh boy, weren't the Rangers an incredibly ****** team at the time (in spite of Espo, Rod Gilbert, Middleton, Greschner, Vadnais etc. on the roster)? CSKA were fairly sloppy - not to mention rather shaky in the beginning - in the game too but still way better than the Rangers.

I do have a memory that Petrov was more invisible than M and K in those two games he played; but I guess that's how it usually was - pre-1976 at least.
All I can say is that Petrov is quite appreciated here in Finland (certainly more appreciated than in the 'ATD land' ); some old-timers even claim that he was the most important member of the line - which obviously isn't true, but still there isn't much of that 'weak link of the line' talk.

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03-18-2013, 12:57 PM
  #544
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All I can say is that Petrov is quite appreciated here in Finland (certainly more appreciated than in the 'ATD land' ); some old-timers even claim that he was the most important member of the line - which obviously isn't true, but still there isn't much of that 'weak link of the line' talk.
Who was the most defensively aware player on that line would you say? As far as i know Petrov was supposed to have become better at it later in his career.

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03-18-2013, 01:12 PM
  #545
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I will present my team in full pretty soon with explanations, up for re-view but are just looking for input on my first two lines here, i've come to second thought the makeup a bit. I know one player is not ideal on the top two lines, but it's where the draft took me and dont think it will be too bad either considering the intangibles.

Brendan Shanahan-Max Bentley-Dany Heatley
The basics: Here Bentley has two strong linemates and i believe his and Heatleys playmaking are enough to make it work, with Shanny putting a rebound in from time to time.

Daniel Sedin-Vladimir Petrov-Claude Lemieux
The basic idea here is that Sedin will get to use more of his pretty solid playmaking here than with Henrik since Petrov is a better finisher. Claude is out to create room and to shoot once in a while as well i bet.

What are your thoughts?


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 03-18-2013 at 01:20 PM.
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03-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #546
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Was Petrov (mostly) invisible in the Rangers game?
Actually, no. He was pretty good against the Rangers. Showed off the slapshot all night, and executed a couple of other good plays, including one of the first true dump-ins (to Mikhailov) that I recall seeing from the Soviets. He made one very nice defensive play on the forecheck in the first period (stealing the puck just outside of the New York blueline and almost setting up a goal), and was the lone forward on a 5-on-3 PK, and played it well. And yes, the Rangers were a ****ing mess at that point, in spite of good on-paper personnel. The Park - Esposito trade was terrible for that team.

It was mainly the Montreal game where Petrov was disappointing. He made a lot of bad passes in that game, though he did come up with that one gem to Kharlamov.

Quote:
All I can say is that Petrov is quite appreciated here in Finland (certainly more appreciated than in the 'ATD land' ); some old-timers even claim that he was the most important member of the line - which obviously isn't true, but still there isn't much of that 'weak link of the line' talk.
Petrov was, I think, definitely the third most important member of the line, but he certainly wasn't bad. The more I watch the Soviet team from this period as an adult, the stranger their system seems to me, and the more I realize how foggy the specifics of my memory have been. The centers almost never seem to be the primary puckcarriers on that team. More often than not, it is the right wings who are responsible for getting the play organized and moving the transition through center ice, which is just strange.

There is a persistent "theory" in the ATD community that Kharlamov was the primary puckcarrier on the K-P-M line and would have lost some scoring by modern standards because the Soviet league didn't record 2nd assists...but when I watch the video from 1976, it is clearly Mikhailov who is most responsible for setting up the play, while Kharlamov is playing a style of hockey that reminds one of Pavel Bure. Vikulov is setting the play from the right wing of the 2nd line, as well, and Maltsev from the right wing of the 3rd. I guess it actually makes a kind of sense. The system was designed to start moving east-west in the neutral zone (to include circling back) looking for an opening if the initial transition could not quickly get across the opposing blueline. Starting an east-west move from one wing would in some ways be easier than doing the same thing from center, as you'd have a greater space open in front of you after making the turn towards center. Is this Tarasov's system at work?

At any rate, it's wierd to see wings behaving more like centers and centers more like wings in a systematic way on that Soviet team circa 1976. Petrov was definitely not a typical center by north american standards, but he had a devastating shot, and seems to have been a pretty good all-around player. Hopefully, I'll have something more concrete to say about him when I'm done with the study.

edit: I have to get this out there because it's true: the Soviet centers were miserably bad at faceoffs during this period, Petrov included. I mean, they'd struggle against AHLers kind of bad. This is a skill they would pick up eventually, but the K-P-M generation obviously did not train very much on faceoffs when they were young.

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03-18-2013, 03:20 PM
  #547
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Great stuff Sturmer.

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03-18-2013, 03:44 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Who was the most defensively aware player on that line would you say? As far as i know Petrov was supposed to have become better at it later in his career.
Kharlamov is definitely the "up man" in the defensive zone, at least circa 1975-76. Between Mikhailov and Petrov, I'd say that Mikhailov is the more active player up and down the ice. The Soviets played a very passive 1-2-2 forechecking system at the time, with Mikhailov as the deep guy, but he was also hustling on the backcheck and going deep into his own zone a lot. Petrov and Kharlamov are high on the forecheck, and Kharlamov didn't really do much (mostly a lot of "drive by" pokechecking, which almost never works against NHLers), but Petrov looks pretty good as a high forechecker and would also go down into his zone fairly often in support.

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03-18-2013, 03:53 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Kharlamov is definitely the "up man" in the defensive zone, at least circa 1975-76. Between Mikhailov and Petrov, I'd say that Mikhailov is the more active player up and down the ice. The Soviets played a very passive 1-2-2 forechecking system at the time, with Mikhailov as the deep guy, but he was also hustling on the backcheck and going deep into his own zone a lot. Petrov and Kharlamov are high on the forecheck, and Kharlamov didn't really do much (mostly a lot of "drive by" pokechecking, which almost never works against NHLers), but Petrov looks pretty good as a high forechecker and would also go down into his zone fairly often in support.
Mhm. What would you say if i say that all the while since researching Petrov for my pick i have had a feeling that he is not totally unlike Phil Esposito in his role? I definetely dont mean a clone, not as tough and dirty obviously and perhaps not as good a scrappy goal scorer, but i want to use him by providing him with the puck from his wingers for him to get the deal done. In that regard, like Phil Esposito. But of course Petrov might be a better playmaker than Phil so therefore it wont be totally the same.


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03-18-2013, 04:12 PM
  #550
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Mhm. What would you say if i say that all the while since researching Petrov for my pick i have had a feeling that he is not totally unlike Phil Esposito in his play? Not as tough and dirty obviously and perhaps not just as good a goal scorer, but i want to use him by providing him with the puck from his wingers.
I'd say there are some similarities and some differences. Petrov did carry the puck through the neutral zone more than Esposito, which isn't saying much, and he also played more defense, though I need to see more of him to get a good handle on just how much he was consistently doing, as there are mixed reports. Petrov had a very hard shot in general, and was the only Soviet of his generation that could really execute a slapshot at a high level, but he did not have Esposito-like hands in tight.

Watching the CSKA - New York game from 1975, I was reminded of how good Esposito was with the puck down low, not just shooting, but passing, as well. His decision making was so quick, and his moves so decisive. Esposito was the master of "they scored....wait, what?" kind of goals where the viewer (and perhaps also the goalie) had no idea at first how the puck had gone in. Mikhailov had some of that in him, but Petrov not so much. His shooting/passing skills seemed to work better a bit further back from the goal. He looks like a shoot-first center, but in terms of scoring style, he seems to be a little more Brett Hull than Phil Esposito.

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