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Garth Snow vs. Wang - blame thread

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:59 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
That's the key, that's what can save the Islanders from 20+ more years of mediocre performances. We are like the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NHL. Whenever we get a new owner, we have to pray said owner is in it to put a winning product on the ice. We need a Jerry Buss type.
Buss just died 3 days ago. RIP. Read his bio on Wikipedia, aside from wanting to win he was an innovator creating revenue ie, one of the first to get corporate naming rights for an arena, Great Western for the Forum. Yes, NYI can use some of that thinking.

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02-21-2013, 12:20 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
That's the key, that's what can save the Islanders from 20+ more years of mediocre performances. We are like the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NHL. Whenever we get a new owner, we have to pray said owner is in it to put a winning product on the ice. We need a Jerry Buss type.
Yup, thats the key. Good owners usually mean a team that at least TRIES to compete. may not win a championship every year, but will be in the playoffs. Not with this crew unfortunately.

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02-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #78
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Well, Wang did do ice girls, bobbleheads, events, roast the coach with Lavy, dinner on the green, skate with the Dynasty guys, a zeppelin, you name it!

He makes being a hockey fan that doesn't care about the hockey part but goes to games for free stuff and to treat their kids to an overpriced debacle a treat for us all!

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02-23-2013, 10:02 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
That's the key, that's what can save the Islanders from 20+ more years of mediocre performances. We are like the Pittsburgh Pirates of the NHL. Whenever we get a new owner, we have to pray said owner is in it to put a winning product on the ice. We need a Jerry Buss type.
and that's the point: it's wang way more than it will ever be snow.
i did assign some % blame to snow - and after listening to his BS tonight with Howie my gut reaction is that i want to assign an even higher percentage. but i truly believe that our ownership is so detrimental to success that even a good GM would be hamstrung. if we had Bill Torrey today, and he was told, "Hey man, keep the payroll at substandard levels" guess what: he'd walk because he'd know that he doesn't have the tools to do his job. Actually, that's pretty much what happened if you talk to some people, but whatever (that's old $*%^).

ps- i don't like snow all that much. i find it galling to watch him do the wang hustle in front of the camera. part of me would like to see him get fired, just because the next GM would never be as much of a puppet. but i don't think snow is primarily to blame and i don't think he's an idiot (just another man who will do whatever the *&%$ it takes to get paid).

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02-24-2013, 01:53 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by scott99 View Post
http://www.newsday.com/sports/hockey...ders-1.4682047

This article just proves to me we have the dumbest GM in the business (and delusional). You mean to tell me he doesn't see, after all of these years, that Okposo and Bailey just aren't good players, and they should be moved for whatever we can get for them. He says he's not going to trade our valuable veterans either, therefore we are going to lose Streit, Nabakov and Visnovsky for absolutely nothing. And he won't bring up our prospects who are playing really well (Neiderreiter, Nelson and Donovan), to replace the piece of garbage waiver wire pickups, even though it's obvious Hickey and Aucoin aren't bringing anything to the table.
Snow is probably petrified of being the next Mike Milbury. Watch him trade okposo and bailey and they both finally got their **** together and become all-stars lol

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02-24-2013, 02:59 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Disgraced Cosmonaut View Post
and that's the point: it's wang way more than it will ever be snow.
i did assign some % blame to snow - and after listening to his BS tonight with Howie my gut reaction is that i want to assign an even higher percentage. but i truly believe that our ownership is so detrimental to success that even a good GM would be hamstrung. if we had Bill Torrey today, and he was told, "Hey man, keep the payroll at substandard levels" guess what: he'd walk because he'd know that he doesn't have the tools to do his job. Actually, that's pretty much what happened if you talk to some people, but whatever (that's old $*%^).

ps- i don't like snow all that much. i find it galling to watch him do the wang hustle in front of the camera. part of me would like to see him get fired, just because the next GM would never be as much of a puppet. but i don't think snow is primarily to blame and i don't think he's an idiot (just another man who will do whatever the *&%$ it takes to get paid).
The sad thing is St.Louis, with their own arena, spends less, makes less money and is valued less than the Isles, had a similar string of losing and are awesome now because their owner LET THEM BE.

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02-25-2013, 12:19 AM
  #82
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Our biggest problem and how I don't see it changing

The main issue with most posters here is usually Cappy,Garth,Wang,talent, or the misusing of our youth. I however will put this on the root of all evil which is money (Wang's fault mostly)

Cappy is being called out and rightfully so, but what's the alternative? I mean if we hire another coach with little to no NHL experience will it help? The problem is it will most likely be another cheap coach. This has been a reoccurring problem since AA left. The carousel will most likely continue with this these type of hiring's.

I know most of us think talent is a issue but if we had some Veteran players with game left in them opposed to Reasoner,Pandolfo,Rolston,Weight, and Guerin (just to name a few) to play along side our talent we could get a better view of what they are capable of as well as the misusing of youth issue. We are sending our kids up and they are usually thrown to the wolves playing with either inferior vets who are usually a year or two away from retirement or just other kids. This is another problem that could be addressed by spending.

I also see talks of Snow not making trades to bring in better players but if Wang doesn't want the payroll to go up how is that his fault? Honestly Garth could either be the greatest or the worst GM but we really can't tell with money restrictions looming over his head. He may quite well not be the answer but his drafting has been as well as anyone's and i know some might fight about the players he didn't draft but that could be said about any of the other 29 GM"S in the NHL.

FA singing's has been another problem and guess what 95% of that is caused from?
For us to be taken seriously by UFA's we would have to show a commitment to winning and sooner than later. We are most likely going to have to overpay a UFA to show that commitment. The overpaying should not be a DP like deal or a Yashin type deal but for a player such as proven player still in his prime without previous issues such as sitting out and maybe even a guy who has won a cup but can probably play at a high level for 5 or more years at least. In our case we need 2/3 of these players and i don't see that being a problem with our barley hovering of the cap floor team.

We seem to need a 1st line RW, a #2 Dman, and a 2nd line center at the moment. I do understand that Strome can fill that roll but as of today we are not sure of that.

I have bolded all of our issues and the 1 common to all of them has to do with money.

This is JMO and i do understand it subjective to criticism but I just don't see how we can ever compete without spending money.


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02-25-2013, 12:51 AM
  #83
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We seem to need a 1st line RW, a #2 Dman, and a 2nd line center at the moment. I do understand that Strome can fill that roll but as of today we are not sure of that.

This is JMO and i do understand it subjective to criticism but I just don't see how we can ever compete without spending money.
You let Snow off the hook pretty easily. It's been five years, soon six, with almost no improvement. There are similar payrolls, without JT, without lottery picks that are far better. COL, STL, even PHX.

All Snow has accumulated is prospects. I could have done the same. And you.

The NYR have Stepan, Krieder, McDonough (for Gomez), Staal, Girardi, in their crop of young players. All teams have prospects and some are better than Snow's.

Maybe we don't need a #1 winger, maybe we need players like Dan Cleary, Jordin Tootoo, maybe another two Matt Martins, the Leafs grabbed Mark Fraser and promoted Korbinian Holzer while benching $9MM in Komisarek and Liles....and got BETTER. They also got Carlyle though.

While I agree Snow has a budget that is more than a challenge, but Tim Thomas won't help this team. Maybe Tim Connolly might have? Maybe someone other than Reasoner or Aucoin or Boulton or McDonald or Boyes. Maybe a GM should recognize a team's weaknesses and try to address them with something other than HOPE and PRAYER?

Sorry. He doesn't get a pass from me. Nor Cappy.

Accountability.

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02-25-2013, 01:01 AM
  #84
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While it would be ignorant to insist (lack of) money had nothing to do with the situation, it's also pretty naive to claim it as the "biggest" problem. The Coyotes don't even have an owner and have been cost-cutting for a while now. Yet they won their division and went deep into the playoffs last year. Meanwhile the Leafs are one of the richest franchises in North American sports yet can't get anything going. The Predators and Blues also had payrolls hovering close to what the Islanders were sporting. And they also were quality teams. The difference starts at the top. Ownership that doesn't interfere. And they hire savvy, intelligent minds to control everything, who then hire intelligent, savvy minds to control scouting and coaching.

As for the Islanders? While we don't know how Neil Smith would have done as GM, he had a proven track record and was the architect of the Rangers' Stanley Cup win in 1994. He wasn't fired over a money issue. He was fired because he refused to be butt buddies with Dipietro. Then he was replaced with the backup goaltender with no track record and was given the job because he was Wang's other butt buddy. And then that goaltender who got Smith fired has been paid 4.5 million for the last 7 seasons to sit on IR while Wang whines about money. Meanwhile, a team like the Coyotes who also has to budget carefully pays similar money to a guy like Keith Yandle. The Coyotes have drafted the likes of Hanzal, OEL, Boedker and their other prospects eventually netted them the likes of Vermette, Klesla, Korpikoski, Rundblad. Aside from Tavares, who was a blatantly obvious pick to make and who landed in the Islanders' lap, and Hamonic, who have the Islanders drafted that has really made an impact? I don't mean dome a dozen guys like Martin, Ullstrom, etc. I mean guys who are impact players even moderately.
Money is an obstacle, but not one that smart hockey minds can't overcome.

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02-25-2013, 02:05 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
You let Snow off the hook pretty easily. It's been five years, soon six, with almost no improvement. There are similar payrolls, without JT, without lottery picks that are far better. COL, STL, even PHX.

All Snow has accumulated is prospects. I could have done the same. And you.

The NYR have Stepan, Krieder, McDonough (for Gomez), Staal, Girardi, in their crop of young players. All teams have prospects and some are better than Snow's.

Maybe we don't need a #1 winger, maybe we need players like Dan Cleary, Jordin Tootoo, maybe another two Matt Martins, the Leafs grabbed Mark Fraser and promoted Korbinian Holzer while benching $9MM in Komisarek and Liles....and got BETTER. They also got Carlyle though.

While I agree Snow has a budget that is more than a challenge, but Tim Thomas won't help this team. Maybe Tim Connolly might have? Maybe someone other than Reasoner or Aucoin or Boulton or McDonald or Boyes. Maybe a GM should recognize a team's weaknesses and try to address them with something other than HOPE and PRAYER?

Sorry. He doesn't get a pass from me. Nor Cappy.

Accountability.
I was truly not trying to be biased towards Cappy or Snow and that's why i also said Snow might be the best or worst GM but with payroll restrictions not much anyone could do. We are truly not even spending the floor as where most teams are doing that (we have circumvented to get this done).
As for Cappy again I am by no means giving him any pass but what I was pointing out when and if we remove him who are we bringing in? Another AHL coach or a guy who has failed elsewhere or even a guy who has been out of the NHL for years because we won't pay for a real coach?.

Phoenix's payroll is $51,049,129 ours is $52,867,071 but 11.8 is Thomas,DP, and Yashin so we are really at 41$ and with that extra 10 mil we could have lets say Doan and Yandle (their 2 highest paid players) and probably their 2 best. Subtract both those players from the Yotes and add a Reasoner and a Finley in there place and I will debate they would be in lots of trouble.

ST.Louis payroll is $49,641,582 8mil more then ours technically. Take off Steen and Stewart (6.4 mil) and again replace them with reasoner and McDonald and again a huge drop off will be seen.

The same goes for Colorado

As for the Rangers you basically proved 1 of my points that they have kids but they also have Nash,Gaborik, and Richards a basic All Star teams 1st line to help the kids out with a much better coach which i did say we needed.

P.S. I even missed the 5.6 mil that Vis is getting that counts against the cap which we are only playing 3mil of. That's another 2.6 + the 11.8 so that's 14.4 less then our 52.9 putting us at 38.5 (way lower then the Blues,Yotes, and Av's).


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02-25-2013, 02:15 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
While it would be ignorant to insist (lack of) money had nothing to do with the situation, it's also pretty naive to claim it as the "biggest" problem. The Coyotes don't even have an owner and have been cost-cutting for a while now. Yet they won their division and went deep into the playoffs last year. Meanwhile the Leafs are one of the richest franchises in North American sports yet can't get anything going. The Predators and Blues also had payrolls hovering close to what the Islanders were sporting. And they also were quality teams. The difference starts at the top. Ownership that doesn't interfere. And they hire savvy, intelligent minds to control everything, who then hire intelligent, savvy minds to control scouting and coaching.

As for the Islanders? While we don't know how Neil Smith would have done as GM, he had a proven track record and was the architect of the Rangers' Stanley Cup win in 1994. He wasn't fired over a money issue. He was fired because he refused to be butt buddies with Dipietro. Then he was replaced with the backup goaltender with no track record and was given the job because he was Wang's other butt buddy. And then that goaltender who got Smith fired has been paid 4.5 million for the last 7 seasons to sit on IR while Wang whines about money. Meanwhile, a team like the Coyotes who also has to budget carefully pays similar money to a guy like Keith Yandle. The Coyotes have drafted the likes of Hanzal, OEL, Boedker and their other prospects eventually netted them the likes of Vermette, Klesla, Korpikoski, Rundblad. Aside from Tavares, who was a blatantly obvious pick to make and who landed in the Islanders' lap, and Hamonic, who have the Islanders drafted that has really made an impact? I don't mean dome a dozen guys like Martin, Ullstrom, etc. I mean guys who are impact players even moderately.
Money is an obstacle, but not one that smart hockey minds can't overcome.
1st part of what you said i posted above this as to why Phoenix,ST.Louis, and whoever else is mentioned is not a equal payroll to ours. Almost 12 million$ of our cap money is being spent on 3 players who are currently not playing with us.

2nd part is another Wang issue and again a money issue. Wang knows nothing about hockey and to stay on the cheap he is hiring coaches and a GM with that in mind. The coach had really no NHL experience as well as the GM who hired him. I agree the prospects as of today are not what some of the teams have but other then a select few who does? Also we still have Strome,Nino,Nelson, and Reinhart yet to get here.

Obviously brain power is key but you have to pay for that. A example for this would be if you needed lets say a good mechanic you would go to a place with a owner with knowledge of mechanics and who hired mechanic's with either years of experience or a guy who was schooled for 10 years in mechanics. Or you could to a place where the owner was a self made man who knows 0 about the subject and hires 2 40 year old guys who have worked on cars at jiffy lube (to keep costs down). Who do you think you would you go to and also which business would you think would do better?


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02-25-2013, 02:23 AM
  #87
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I was truly not trying to be biased towards Cappy or Snow and that's why i also said Snow might be the best or worst GM but with payroll restrictions not much anyone could do. We are truly not even spending the floor as where most teams are doing that (we have circumvented to get this done).
As for Cappy again I am by no means giving him any pass but what I was pointing out when and if we remove him who are we bringing in? Another AHL coach or a guy who has failed elsewhere or even a guy who has been out of the NHL for years because we won't pay for a real coach?.

Phoenix's payroll is $51,049,129 ours is $52,867,071 but 11.8 is Thomas,DP, and Yashin so we are really at 41$ and with that extra 10 mil we could have lets say Doan and Yandle (their 2 highest paid players) and probably their 2 best. Subtract both those players from the Yotes and add a Reasoner and a Finley in there place and I will debate they would be in lots of trouble.

ST.Louis payroll is $49,641,582 8mil more then ours technically. Take off Steen and Stewart (6.4 mil) and again replace them with reasoner and McDonald and again a huge drop off will be seen.

The same goes for Colorado

As for the Rangers you basically proved 1 of my points that they have kids but they also have Nash,Gaborik, and Richards a basic All Star teams 1st line to help the kids out with a much better coach which i did say we needed.
You don't get to just write off DP and Yashin's contract. Those exist for a reason. They didn't just appear one day. Those were the result of poor management, which lies at the hands of Wang. Similarly, you're basically punishing those teams for their CORRECT asset management. If you take Doan and Yandle off the Coyotes they suck because they lost two of their best players. Not because they lost payroll.

Those teams may have slightly larger payrolls, but you would think that part of that is due to the fact that they generate more revenue through merchandise, ticket sales, and actually reaching the playoffs, no? Even if not, the point still stands. Nashville, Phoenix, and St. Louis had much lower payrolls than teams like Buffalo, Calgary, and Toronto did last season yet were overwhelmingly better due to superior management, coaching, development, and deviation of assets. On that basis, how does a few million dollars in payroll less prevent the Islanders from any possible fate other than lottery picks every season?

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02-25-2013, 02:28 AM
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1st part of what you said i posted above this as to why Phoenix,ST.Louis, and whoever else is mentioned is not a equal payroll to ours. Almost 12 million$ of our cap money is being spent on 3 players who are currently not playing with us.

2nd part is another Wang issue and again a money issue. Wang knows nothing about hockey and to stay on the cheap he is hiring coaches and a GM with that in mind. The coach had really no NHL experience as well as the GM who hired him. I agree the prospects as of today are not what some of the teams have but other then a select few who does? Also we still have Strome,Nino,Nelson, and Reinhart yet to get here.
I address the first part in my previous post.

Second part, completely fail to address and perhaps even understand what I said in regards to management. He fired a guy with a ton of experience as an NHL GM and executive and was the architect of a Stanley Cup winner and replaced him with the backup goaltender. That move had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "hiring on the cheap." It had everything to do with Wang. So yes, Wang is the problem and not money.

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02-25-2013, 03:03 AM
  #89
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You don't get to just write off DP and Yashin's contract. Those exist for a reason. They didn't just appear one day. Those were the result of poor management, which lies at the hands of Wang. Similarly, you're basically punishing those teams for their CORRECT asset management. If you take Doan and Yandle off the Coyotes they suck because they lost two of their best players. Not because they lost payroll.

Those teams may have slightly larger payrolls, but you would think that part of that is due to the fact that they generate more revenue through merchandise, ticket sales, and actually reaching the playoffs, no? Even if not, the point still stands. Nashville, Phoenix, and St. Louis had much lower payrolls than teams like Buffalo, Calgary, and Toronto did last season yet were overwhelmingly better due to superior management, coaching, development, and deviation of assets. On that basis, how does a few million dollars in payroll less prevent the Islanders from any possible fate other than lottery picks every season?
A few million? try like 10-14. I do understand that owner sucks and that the DP and Yashin contracts were terrible and are still being paid if their here or not but the FACT is our current salary on this team as of today is just under 39 million. If the owner cared about winning as much as he did saving money he would have bit the bullet and not punished the team by adding payroll instead of finding ways to make up for the f ups that he is responsible for. Let's say you own a business and made some poor decisions but could improve it by putting more money into that you obviously had (you being Wang) if it was going to make you money or in this case not lose money wouldn't you do it?. So i guess your idea is to punish the fans and the team for the idiot contracts to Yashin and DP???????


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02-25-2013, 03:12 AM
  #90
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I address the first part in my previous post.

Second part, completely fail to address and perhaps even understand what I said in regards to management. He fired a guy with a ton of experience as an NHL GM and executive and was the architect of a Stanley Cup winner and replaced him with the backup goaltender. That move had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "hiring on the cheap." It had everything to do with Wang. So yes, Wang is the problem and not money.
You keep bringing up Smith a GM we had for a month where as Wang has owned the team for 13 years!!! What high priced coaches have we had???? Name some because we have had about 12 or 13 but yet your telling me it's not about the money? Then what the hell is it then???? How can you or anyone deny when by proof he continues to find ways to pay for his mistakes by using circumvention of the cap??? Please enlighten me on how this is NOT money related besides throwing a 1 month GM argument. When was the last time we signed any high priced free agent under the age of 28 or who was a stud? What Satan in 05/06?

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02-25-2013, 03:19 AM
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A few million? try like 10-14. I do understand that owner sucks and that the DP and Yashin contracts were terrible and are still being paid if their here or not but the FACT is our current salary on this team as of today is just under 39 million. If the owner cared about winning as much as he did saving money he would have bit the bullet and not punished the team by adding payroll instead of finding ways to make up for the f ups that he is responsible for. Let's say you own a business and made some poor decisions but could improve it by putting more money into that you obviously had (you being Wang). So i guess your idea is to punish the fans and the team for the idiot contracts to Yashin and DP???????
I have no idea where this 10-14 figure is coming from. For the 2011-2013 season, the Islanders were spending about 1.08 million less than the Predators. That's not a salary cap number. That's the amount of money each respective owner was paying out.

The problem is that you're equating money with talent, which very clearly is not the case. As I have already said, teams like the Blues, Predators, and Coyotes have been successful despite spending about $10 million less per season than other teams. Your implication is that, with more money, the Islanders would be more successful. Except the fact that the Predators have made the playoffs more consistently than the Maple Leafs have contradicts your model. Let's pretend the Islanders were given eight million by an anonymous donor to spend on players. Exactly what evidence do you have that the money would be spend on players who would suddenly make the Islanders a consistent playoff team much like the Blues, Coyotes, and Predators have been/are? And if those teams can go that far despite the financial situation, exactly what is preventing the Islanders from being even an 8/9 seed? You think that's MONEY?

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02-25-2013, 03:19 AM
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You keep bringing up Smith a GM we had for a month where as Wang has owned the team for 13 years!!! What high priced coaches have we had???? Name some because we have had about 12 or 13 but yet your telling me it's not about the money? Then what the hell is it then???? How can you or anyone deny when by proof he continues to find ways to pay for his mistakes by using circumvention of the cap??? Please enlighten me on how this is NOT money related besides throwing a 1 month GM argument. When was the last time we signed any high priced free agent under the age of 28 or who was a stud? What Satan in 05/06?
Please explain how firing Smith and hiring Snow was a financial decision.

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02-25-2013, 03:51 AM
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Please explain how firing Smith and hiring Snow was a financial decision.
Again back to the Smith argument. I see you conveniently left out the Circumvention of the cap, lack of landing of a high end FA, and the lack of hiring a proven head coach...go figure.
This great Neil Smith guy who basically brought the Edmonton Oilers dynasty players to the Rags and made them a 1 time Stanley cup winner. Where is he today? What was his last GM job? Oddly enough it was the islanders and if he was the god of god's your making him seem to be why has nobody else hired him???? Why did you not feel the need to reply to the fact that our owner made terrible singing's and because of those singing's he is finding a loophole to spend as little as possible and make the team and the fan's suffer by not spending more money?

Can i prove with 10 or 12 million$ this team will be a playoff contender...NO.

Would you though dare to say if we signed Bouwmeester,Getzlaf, and Perry and added that 17mil (fair guestimation) and subtracted Reasoner,McDonald, and Carkner (making 3.5 mil) for a difference of 13.5 mil and again as of today would make our actual cap at about 52 mil and even with the DP and Yashin contracts (you can't include the 2.6 for VIS as well as the 5mil for Thomas because he is NOT paying for that) that would still only bring us to about the 60 mil level which currently would put us at 17th highest payroll in the league would not make this team much better? Can you actually sit there and tell me that with those 3 additions vs those 3 subtractions we would not be greatly improved and may i dare say a playoff contending team???
Of course there is no guarantee of anything in life except for death and taxes buttttttttttttttttttttt it's much more likely with All Star type players opposed to WW pick up's and over the hill 1 trick pony vets we would be a playoff team.


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02-25-2013, 06:51 AM
  #94
Bunk Moreland
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Short of Wang selling to an owner committed to winning there is no one singular issue that if solved transforms us into a perennial playoff contender. The all around talent on this roster is lacking, we are unable to land premium talent via free agency, we draft high end talent that doesn't either pan out or get developed properly, we have crappy coaching etc etc etc it goes on and on and on.

We are a perfect storm of dysfunction that still manages to win games.

I say new owner spending would be huge but you never know what you're getting a new owner could be just as dysfunctional, doesn't care, doesn't spend.. I talked to a few sabres fans this weekend who were very unhappy with Pegula. I don't know if it was a minority I talk to but they said they were so happy at first with his spending but that the guy is all about making $$ not winning. The grass is not always greener but I'd take it in a heartbeat anyway.

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02-25-2013, 06:51 AM
  #95
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In Phoenix, the NHL gives Don Maloney a budget and he can do anything he wants long as he stays within it. No interfering by the NHL, the hockey operation off the ice is well staffed and they can go about their business, and Maloney does try to improve the team for the money he can spend.

While the Islanders were in Ottawa and Montreal last week I listened their their radio shows.
I do this to see what they are saying. It's really nothing new, it starts with Wang who wants to pay out little as possible on salary which refers to cap hit and the actual money paid out for players who are playing and not dead money. Below Wang, everything is a bare bones operation the GM coaches, scouting staff, ect are all undermanned.

Fact is the Islanders need a new owner. Not that Snow is getting a free pass from me, the fact is if there is ever a new owner, just about everyone will be fired. Wang's reputation around the NHL is that bad.

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02-25-2013, 07:56 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattMartin View Post
Again back to the Smith argument. I see you conveniently left out the Circumvention of the cap, lack of landing of a high end FA, and the lack of hiring a proven head coach...go figure.
This great Neil Smith guy who basically brought the Edmonton Oilers dynasty players to the Rags and made them a 1 time Stanley cup winner. Where is he today? What was his last GM job? Oddly enough it was the islanders and if he was the god of god's your making him seem to be why has nobody else hired him???? Why did you not feel the need to reply to the fact that our owner made terrible singing's and because of those singing's he is finding a loophole to spend as little as possible and make the team and the fan's suffer by not spending more money?

Can i prove with 10 or 12 million$ this team will be a playoff contender...NO.

Would you though dare to say if we signed Bouwmeester,Getzlaf, and Perry and added that 17mil (fair guestimation) and subtracted Reasoner,McDonald, and Carkner (making 3.5 mil) for a difference of 13.5 mil and again as of today would make our actual cap at about 52 mil and even with the DP and Yashin contracts (you can't include the 2.6 for VIS as well as the 5mil for Thomas because he is NOT paying for that) that would still only bring us to about the 60 mil level which currently would put us at 17th highest payroll in the league would not make this team much better? Can you actually sit there and tell me that with those 3 additions vs those 3 subtractions we would not be greatly improved and may i dare say a playoff contending team???
Of course there is no guarantee of anything in life except for death and taxes buttttttttttttttttttttt it's much more likely with All Star type players opposed to WW pick up's and over the hill 1 trick pony vets we would be a playoff team.
Can someone else help me out please? It's very clear that I'm just doing a poor job of conveying reality.

As I said in my first post, who the hell knows how successful the Neil Smith reign would have been. Here is what we DO know, though. He was fired because he refused to pen a 15 year contract for Rick Dipietro. Given that, it's fairly safe to say that he had at least a modicum of logic... no... sanity and that the Islanders would have been better off with him in charge than Wang and Snow (who is at best a puppet). We also know that Smith was not fired as a cost-cutting method and in fact the decision probably was an expensive one for Snow, since he was now paying Snow AS WELL as Smith. Using this knowledge, we can safely conclude that Charles Wang has fully intended (even if unknowingly) to run the franchise into the ground regardless of the economic factors at hand.

The Buffalo example brought up is a fantastic one, and what Bunk Moreland didn't mention is that a coach like Lindy Ruff and GM like Darcy Regier are clearly expensive. Therefore, we have evidence right in front of our eyes that money to spend and an expensive coaching & management staff means absolutely nothing in itself; the money has to be utilized correctly. As Degeneration Rex then highlighted, Phoenix is in a decent enough position in a hockey sense because they have a smart, experienced GM in place who was given a budget and otherwise has free reign. Donald Trump could die tonight and hand his entire estate over to Wang in his will, and it would be completely worthless if Wang was unable to correctly spend that money. Money is only a tool to be utilized, not an inherent answer to problems, and Charles Wang has not shown a single shred of evidence that suggests he has any idea how to utilize money from a hockey perspective nor does he show any intentions of hiring someone who does and then staying out of affairs. Charles Wang is the issue. Not money.

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02-25-2013, 08:19 AM
  #97
Mr Wentworth
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There's a factor that, I feel, is being left out.

It is assumed there is going to be an infusion of money when the Isles move to Brooklyn.

Then there's the rumor that Wang is going to sell.

So, maybe, perhaps, and all other words synonymous with those two, money won't be (too big) of an issue in a few years.

(Then, there's always the chance the Isles bolt this summer and hope the influx of money will offset what it takes to buy out the lease. Or, and I wouldn't be suprised if this happens: The Isles find many unsafe areas [more asbestos?] and other pressing issues with the building and use that as a reason to leave.)

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02-25-2013, 09:38 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRightWay View Post
Can someone else help me out please? It's very clear that I'm just doing a poor job of conveying reality.

As I said in my first post, who the hell knows how successful the Neil Smith reign would have been. Here is what we DO know, though. He was fired because he refused to pen a 15 year contract for Rick Dipietro. Given that, it's fairly safe to say that he had at least a modicum of logic... no... sanity and that the Islanders would have been better off with him in charge than Wang and Snow (who is at best a puppet). We also know that Smith was not fired as a cost-cutting method and in fact the decision probably was an expensive one for Snow, since he was now paying Snow AS WELL as Smith. Using this knowledge, we can safely conclude that Charles Wang has fully intended (even if unknowingly) to run the franchise into the ground regardless of the economic factors at hand.

The Buffalo example brought up is a fantastic one, and what Bunk Moreland didn't mention is that a coach like Lindy Ruff and GM like Darcy Regier are clearly expensive. Therefore, we have evidence right in front of our eyes that money to spend and an expensive coaching & management staff means absolutely nothing in itself; the money has to be utilized correctly. As Degeneration Rex then highlighted, Phoenix is in a decent enough position in a hockey sense because they have a smart, experienced GM in place who was given a budget and otherwise has free reign. Donald Trump could die tonight and hand his entire estate over to Wang in his will, and it would be completely worthless if Wang was unable to correctly spend that money. Money is only a tool to be utilized, not an inherent answer to problems, and Charles Wang has not shown a single shred of evidence that suggests he has any idea how to utilize money from a hockey perspective nor does he show any intentions of hiring someone who does and then staying out of affairs. Charles Wang is the issue. Not money.
So let me get this straight.
The fact he circumvents the cap has nothing to do with money?
We have not landed a good/great player via free agency (Satan) since 05/06 has nothing to do with money?
We have had a coaching carousel and not 1 of those coaches would be considered high end coaches but yet again nothing to do with money?
Maybe the Neil Smith had nothing to do with money but why do you keep avoiding the other 3????????????

Using Buffalo in the example in terms of spending on a coaching and management stance is absurd. Sure if you go by this season, buttttttt from 97-13 they have been to the playoffs 8 of the seasons including 1 Stanley cup trip and 3 conference finals so how the F are you telling me that spending money on "expensive coaching & management staff means absolutely nothing in itself", reallly?????????

John's getting upset!!!!


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02-25-2013, 09:57 AM
  #99
redbull
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Originally Posted by MattMartin View Post
So let me get this straight.
The fact he circumvents the cap has nothing to do with money?
We have not landed a good/great player via free agency (Satan) since 05/06 has nothing to do with money?
We have had a coaching carousel and not 1 of those coaches would be considered high end coaches but yet again nothing to do with money?
Maybe the Neil Smith had nothing to do with money but why do you keep avoiding the other 3????????????
money is a convenient excuse for poor management.

first, STL, PHX, NASH, COL have had similar caps and payrolls for YEARS, the last 5-6 years at least, you can't cherry pick the brilliant cap-circumvention that Snow's so focused on THIS YEAR and talk about how we could have had Doan and Yandle.

In reality, Doan and Yandle wouldn't sign here ANYWAY, regardless of money.

Maybe the way Snow has proven capable ONLY of finishing bottom five is a deterrent to free agents (like Ehrhoff, P. Martin) AND trades (like Lubo).

Nashville lost Suter, NJ lost Parise, most of these teams have NO TAVARES. and no excuses, because they don't need excuses. Maybe Snow should have signed Mike Smith and dealt with DP a long time ago? Maybe Antoine Vermette and Kyle Chipchura are better players for the Islanders than what we have?

The Isles finished bottom five with Parenteau on the first line. He got his points, he had his flaws. Why replace him with the EXACT SAME type of player? With the same flaws? "oh, but he has a lot of points" - yup, as much as Wayne Simmonds and Joe Pavelski - yet, the team sucks.

MONEY is an excuse.

What has Snow done to lure players here? How has he treated ex-players, ex-PR-bloggers, ex chief scouts? What reputation does Wang have in firing Smith and hiring Snow? Has Snow helped the NYI BRAND since he took over? or made things worse? How does the Tim Thomas signing make ANY PLAYER want to play for the Islanders next year?

Was it a SMART move to save Wang a buck? YES!

Does it KILL the current players and potential future players? Yes.

Snow has shown an ability to draft (yet showing zero results so far except Tavares) and to claim players on waivers. I could have done exactly the same thing and achieved the same awful results. No?

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02-25-2013, 10:14 AM
  #100
Degeneration Rex
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
money is a convenient excuse for poor management.

first, STL, PHX, NASH, COL have had similar caps and payrolls for YEARS, the last 5-6 years at least, you can't cherry pick the brilliant cap-circumvention that Snow's so focused on THIS YEAR and talk about how we could have had Doan and Yandle.

In reality, Doan and Yandle wouldn't sign here ANYWAY, regardless of money.

Maybe the way Snow has proven capable ONLY of finishing bottom five is a deterrent to free agents (like Ehrhoff, P. Martin) AND trades (like Lubo).

Nashville lost Suter, NJ lost Parise, most of these teams have NO TAVARES. and no excuses, because they don't need excuses. Maybe Snow should have signed Mike Smith and dealt with DP a long time ago? Maybe Antoine Vermette and Kyle Chipchura are better players for the Islanders than what we have?

The Isles finished bottom five with Parenteau on the first line. He got his points, he had his flaws. Why replace him with the EXACT SAME type of player? With the same flaws? "oh, but he has a lot of points" - yup, as much as Wayne Simmonds and Joe Pavelski - yet, the team sucks.

MONEY is an excuse.

What has Snow done to lure players here? How has he treated ex-players, ex-PR-bloggers, ex chief scouts? What reputation does Wang have in firing Smith and hiring Snow? Has Snow helped the NYI BRAND since he took over? or made things worse? How does the Tim Thomas signing make ANY PLAYER want to play for the Islanders next year?

Was it a SMART move to save Wang a buck? YES!

Does it KILL the current players and potential future players? Yes.

Snow has shown an ability to draft (yet showing zero results so far except Tavares) and to claim players on waivers. I could have done exactly the same thing and achieved the same awful results. No?
You could do the same thing. The Thomas thing tells me as a fan and to the players that no help is
on the way and if anything some players will likely be gone at the trade deadline.

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