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Garth Snow vs. Wang - blame thread

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Old
02-28-2013, 01:29 AM
  #126
blitzkriegs
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Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
Forbes says NYI lost 16 mil not 4. That's with the lowest payroll. Imagine how much he'd have lost with an average payroll?

http://www.forbes.com/teams/new-york-islanders/


Who would Wang have sold to without an arena deal in place? (he's only had since late October with an arena deal)
Look at the Coyotes numbers, then look at the Isles. Don't they look similar? What's the one major item that is missing in this equation? The annual revenues derived from the cable deal that are not part of the footnoted basis for valuation.

Next, the Isles gate receipts are putrid.

Now, look at the valuation charts for NYR, NJ, and NYI. Look at the huge difference in Market and Arena in these clubs. Now, add the Isles in Brooklyn to that. The Market and Arena numbers for the Isles will rocket up placing the Isles most likely in the 10-15 spot on that list. Wang wins in valuation. He's holding for that number once it's actually "on the books."

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02-28-2013, 03:59 AM
  #127
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i say, imagine how much more revenue could be generated if he invested in some players. could it offset some of that loss if he iced a good product? probably not enough to break even- so he takes the sure thing and goes super cheap. the isles were always run on a budget. they needed to be run like the devils but instead of lou lamoriello we got milbury and snow. instead of middling cap room, we have a fugazi cap floor threshold team. that's on ownership. gm's don't hire themselves. gm's don't set the budget.
Net of stadium revenues used for debt payments - $66M (is cable revenue a stadium revenue?}

player expenses including bonuses we don't pay - $55M. What did Wang ACTUALLY PAY MINUS BONUSES? The OI # is bogus. A red herring.

how's our playoff revenue?

Now whatever....look at the Blues. $89M, lost $10M and spent $4M more and got playoff revenue. Why? They tried to win. Nothing more needs to be said.
Now look at the Blues.

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02-28-2013, 10:03 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by OlTimeHockey View Post
Net of stadium revenues used for debt payments - $66M (is cable revenue a stadium revenue?}

player expenses including bonuses we don't pay - $55M. What did Wang ACTUALLY PAY MINUS BONUSES? The OI # is bogus. A red herring.

how's our playoff revenue?

Now whatever....look at the Blues. $89M, lost $10M and spent $4M more and got playoff revenue. Why? They tried to win. Nothing more needs to be said.
Now look at the Blues.
It's even worse than this when you consider Snow decided to phantom-pay Tim Thomas (buying FREE cap space of $5MM) to then send DiPietro's $4.5MM to the AHL.

So they still have the same cash flow, stay above the cap, but don't help the on-ice team.

The team would rather bring in a ghost to reach the cap floor than to pay the same amount (or even less) for an actual roster player to help the team.

And PHX also lost $20MM last year. Wang shouldn't own this team, he's an unfit parent, his child should be removed by the state.

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02-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
Look at the Coyotes numbers, then look at the Isles. Don't they look similar? What's the one major item that is missing in this equation? The annual revenues derived from the cable deal that are not part of the footnoted basis for valuation.

Next, the Isles gate receipts are putrid.

Now, look at the valuation charts for NYR, NJ, and NYI. Look at the huge difference in Market and Arena in these clubs. Now, add the Isles in Brooklyn to that. The Market and Arena numbers for the Isles will rocket up placing the Isles most likely in the 10-15 spot on that list. Wang wins in valuation. He's holding for that number once it's actually "on the books."
Cable revenue is included. The Forbes author said so -


From: Ozanian, Michael [mailto:MOzanian@forbes.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Question on Business of Hockey -Team Values article

Cable rev is included.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 04:22 AM
To: Ozanian, Michael
Subject: Question on Business of Hockey -Team Values article


Michael,

Regarding the article you wrote, could you tell me for the NY islanders if the annual cable TV revenue from Cablevision's contract is included in the total revenue listed for the Islanders?




Phoenix revenue is $17 mil higher than NYI. Not that similar.

Yes, the value in Brooklyn will shoot up. It's our only hope.

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02-28-2013, 10:57 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Disgraced Cosmonaut View Post
i say, imagine how much more revenue could be generated if he invested in some players. could it offset some of that loss if he iced a good product? probably not enough to break even- so he takes the sure thing and goes super cheap. the isles were always run on a budget. they needed to be run like the devils but instead of lou lamoriello we got milbury and snow. instead of middling cap room, we have a fugazi cap floor threshold team. that's on ownership. gm's don't hire themselves. gm's don't set the budget.
Investing in players doesn't guarantee a good product. Ask Toronto or Rangers for so many years. You can bet Wang did the math to figure out he'd still lose money and not come close to breaking even by spending more due to LI's/NVMC's limited revenue potential which is always last in the league. There aren't many Lamoriello's around and Dev's revenue has always been better than NYI's.

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02-28-2013, 10:58 AM
  #131
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It's even worse than this when you consider Snow decided to phantom-pay Tim Thomas (buying FREE cap space of $5MM) to then send DiPietro's $4.5MM to the AHL.

So they still have the same cash flow, stay above the cap, but don't help the on-ice team.

The team would rather bring in a ghost to reach the cap floor than to pay the same amount (or even less) for an actual roster player to help the team.

And PHX also lost $20MM last year. Wang shouldn't own this team, he's an unfit parent, his child should be removed by the state.
And PHX might move.

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03-08-2013, 08:32 PM
  #132
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Enjoy this article if you support or understand what Snow has to work with..

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mor..._a12&eref=sihp

The 10 least powerful people in sports

9. Garth Snow, Islanders general manager: Snow works for an owner who has been losing millions for years and running his organization on the cheap with a lousy deal on an outdated, 41-year-old arena. Top free agents don't want to play in Long Island for the perennially struggling Isles, so Snow must scavenge for veteran talent to augment the team's young core.

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03-09-2013, 12:28 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Marshall days View Post
Cable revenue is included. The Forbes author said so -


From: Ozanian, Michael [mailto:MOzanian@forbes.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Question on Business of Hockey -Team Values article

Cable rev is included.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 04:22 AM
To: Ozanian, Michael
Subject: Question on Business of Hockey -Team Values article


Michael,

Regarding the article you wrote, could you tell me for the NY islanders if the annual cable TV revenue from Cablevision's contract is included in the total revenue listed for the Islanders?




Phoenix revenue is $17 mil higher than NYI. Not that similar.

Yes, the value in Brooklyn will shoot up. It's our only hope.
Wang has been maintaining the same budget or less than when he bought the team. The isles payroll shot up to close to $40+ mil cash in 2001.

Yet, Wang has received increased revenues over time from the NVMC, cut stuff, management, down to a bare bones operation. How is he still incurring tons of loses?

If he truly was, he has some tolerance for sustaining loses that defies reality. His only hope was to get the lighthouse, the building via the referendum, or Brooklyn. He announces the deal THREE years in advance, odd no?

At the same time the $20 million in annual loses thrown around has suddenly disappeared. He cried pauper to try to induce getting the building.

Now, any one in the valuation world does not want to hear about $20 in annual loses somehow being automatically cured by going to Brooklyn. I agree the revenue streams will be a boon, but Wang's story has always been surrounded with suspicion in the accounting world.

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03-09-2013, 01:31 AM
  #134
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Not sure if this has been posted on here before or if this guy is even a member of this board but I came across this video and think it won't be long til this comes back
http://youtu.be/to0Xaqqja4g

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03-09-2013, 02:00 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles Chick 89 View Post
Not sure if this has been posted on here before or if this guy is even a member of this board but I came across this video and think it won't be long til this comes back
http://youtu.be/to0Xaqqja4g
Wang must go poster 2$
15 year bust Islander customized jersey 125$ (if it's not authentic)
6 guys standing up for the cause...Priceless!!!

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03-09-2013, 04:25 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by blitzkriegs View Post
Wang has been maintaining the same budget or less than when he bought the team. The isles payroll shot up to close to $40+ mil cash in 2001.

Yet, Wang has received increased revenues over time from the NVMC, cut stuff, management, down to a bare bones operation. How is he still incurring tons of loses?

If he truly was, he has some tolerance for sustaining loses that defies reality. His only hope was to get the lighthouse, the building via the referendum, or Brooklyn. He announces the deal THREE years in advance, odd no?

At the same time the $20 million in annual loses thrown around has suddenly disappeared. He cried pauper to try to induce getting the building.

Now, any one in the valuation world does not want to hear about $20 in annual loses somehow being automatically cured by going to Brooklyn. I agree the revenue streams will be a boon, but Wang's story has always been surrounded with suspicion in the accounting world.
Tell it to Forbes.

How is announcing the Brooklyn deal 3 years early odd? Nets did similar. It helps players know where they will be playing and not keeping them guessing. What if Brooklyn booked someone else for 41 dates for many years if NYI waited too long? Where would NYI be? Quebec or Seattle?

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03-21-2013, 09:45 PM
  #137
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The blame for these 3rd period losses is strictly on ownership for not nipping this early on. I really wonder what goes through Snow's head after these 3rd period losses?

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03-21-2013, 09:55 PM
  #138
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The blame for these 3rd period losses is strictly on ownership for not nipping this early on. I really wonder what goes through Snow's head after these 3rd period losses?
Let the owners, own, managers, manage and coaches, coach. Third period losses should be on cappy, I don't think Wang is in the locker room getting on the guys to finish strong in the 3rd period. Blame Wang for not spending money on a GM with experience. Blame Wang for not spending money on a better coach or better players. Snow is the man in the middle of a crappy owner and crappy coach. Snow is trying to think of ways to get the team better and cheaper at the same time, that is pretty hard to do. It is not Snow's fault that his owner can't spend money on getting the team better.

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03-21-2013, 10:06 PM
  #139
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Let the owners, own, managers, manage and coaches, coach. Third period losses should be on cappy, I don't think Wang is in the locker room getting on the guys to finish strong in the 3rd period. Blame Wang for not spending money on a GM with experience. Blame Wang for not spending money on a better coach or better players. Snow is the man in the middle of a crappy owner and crappy coach. Snow is trying to think of ways to get the team better and cheaper at the same time, that is pretty hard to do. It is not Snow's fault that his owner can't spend money on getting the team better.
Obviously the problem is a 3 headed monster with Wang deserving most of the blame followed by Snow than Capuano. We all agree Wang is the cheapest owner around. We also all agree that Capuano is not an NHL caliber coach.

Shouldn't our GM who should be in charge of hockey ops be doing everything in his power to get in Wangs ear to be able to fire Capuano. If Capuano won't change the lines, pulls the goalies, makes excuses, etc its the GMs job to lay down the hammer. Snow has no stones and it shows with the poor on ice product he has given us for 6 straight seasons, he won't make a trade and won't hold anyone accountable. He does not have the leadership qualities necessary to be in charge of a winner.

Wang can't be "fired" next on the list is the GM of 5 soon to be 6 straight years of bottom 5 finishes.

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03-21-2013, 10:14 PM
  #140
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Obviously the problem is a 3 headed monster with Wang deserving most of the blame followed by Snow than Capuano. We all agree Wang is the cheapest owner around. We also all agree that Capuano is not an NHL caliber coach.

Shouldn't our GM who should be in charge of hockey ops be doing everything in his power to get in Wangs ear to be able to fire Capuano. If Capuano won't change the lines, pulls the goalies, makes excuses, etc its the GMs job to lay down the hammer. Snow has no stones and it shows with the poor on ice product he has given us for 6 straight seasons, he won't make a trade and won't hold anyone accountable. He does not have the leadership qualities necessary to be in charge of a winner.

Wang can't be "fired" next on the list is the GM of 5 soon to be 6 straight years of bottom 5 finishes.
Some people just don't get it. Wang is here to stay. He cannot be removed. Everybody knows he's the main problem-BUT he's clearly not the only problem. Snow is a big one. Has he been put into a bad situation? Sure. But what has he done with it? Absolutely nothing. "Potential" is as all well and good-but we're on year what and they're not even in the race to be an average team (8th seed). Our expectations around here are so low-that people here actually believe that you need a "good" team to make the playoffs, when in reality the most average team in the conference is 8th seed. It's nothing short of pathetic.

This team sucks. Period. Tavares was a gift, he was wrapped up and might as well of had a big ribbon pinned on his forehead. Other than that I don't (currently) see ONE big impact players on this team. After what 5-6 years, you need to do better than that-and I don't care what situation you're in.

Snow knew full well what he was getting himself into-he accepted the job knowing the hardships-thus he does NOT get a pass on them. Tough. This is professional hockey-and you're successful when you WIN. PERIOD.

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03-21-2013, 10:25 PM
  #141
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Obviously the problem is a 3 headed monster with Wang deserving most of the blame followed by Snow than Capuano. We all agree Wang is the cheapest owner around. We also all agree that Capuano is not an NHL caliber coach.

Shouldn't our GM who should be in charge of hockey ops be doing everything in his power to get in Wangs ear to be able to fire Capuano. If Capuano won't change the lines, pulls the goalies, makes excuses, etc its the GMs job to lay down the hammer. Snow has no stones and it shows with the poor on ice product he has given us for 6 straight seasons, he won't make a trade and won't hold anyone accountable. He does not have the leadership qualities necessary to be in charge of a winner.

Wang can't be "fired" next on the list is the GM of 5 soon to be 6 straight years of bottom 5 finishes.
Not if Wang doesn't think Cappy is doing a bad job, Snow could be saying all this stuff to Wang but maybe Wang doesn't see it. If cappy won't change lines, pull the goalie that his choice, not Snow's. Snow's job is to manage personnel, cap issues, evaluate the current roster, not to mention keeping tabs on prospects and deciding when to offer ELCs. I understand snow has not made moves but maybe he sees promise in the prospects. He married the system of building through the draft and has not steered of that philosophy which is never a good thing.

Accountablilty/Leadership, IMO comes from the TOP and wang doesn't have that. Those 2 things cannot be taught. That is the most frustrating part.

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03-21-2013, 10:28 PM
  #142
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which is never a good thing. I meant BAD thing.

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03-21-2013, 10:34 PM
  #143
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The blame for these 3rd period losses is strictly on ownership for not nipping this early on. I really wonder what goes through Snow's head after these 3rd period losses?
I would like to know if Wang is holding him back because he doesn't want to pay a NHL head coach. Clearly he doesn't want Weight as a head coach because he would have been the coach by now if he did. What choice does he have?

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03-21-2013, 11:32 PM
  #144
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I would like to know if Wang is holding him back because he doesn't want to pay a NHL head coach. Clearly he doesn't want Weight as a head coach because he would have been the coach by now if he did. What choice does he have?
I don't know other than Weight or Thompson.


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03-22-2013, 12:08 AM
  #145
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I don't know other than Weight or Thompson.

They're waiting for a coach to get waived.

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03-22-2013, 08:46 AM
  #146
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They're waiting for a coach to get waived.
But Lindy Ruff got "waived". Why hasn't Garth picked him up? Oh yeah, he'd earn too much.

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03-22-2013, 01:26 PM
  #147
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I would like to know if Wang is holding him back because he doesn't want to pay a NHL head coach. Clearly he doesn't want Weight as a head coach because he would have been the coach by now if he did. What choice does he have?
Of course he is. that cheap **** is an *******. #FCW. Cant stand that man.

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03-23-2013, 01:38 PM
  #148
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Up until recently I've always been a person with the idea that Snow's hands are tied and he's doing all he can with stingy Wang at the helm. But now it's gotten to the point that Snow has done next to nothing to improve this team.

If he's just been that inactive that he doesn't do anything anymore, he's a terrible GM. But if he is really that powerless under Wang that he can't do a damn thing to improve the team, he should take a move out of the playbook of what many Wall Street bankers have recently done: resign and go public about what a sham Wang's ownership is.

Snow has to understand that in the public eye, the perpetual bottom of the standings laughing stock this team has become is on him because of his position. If I was in a job where upper management prevented me from doing what I needed to do and the resulting poor performance of the company reflected badly on me because of my position, I don't think I would continue working for that company.

The argument can be made that Snow will look bad blasting his former employer and hurt his future job opportunities, but is it really that much worse than the harm of bottom-five finish year after year brings to a GM's reputation?

Unless he is that disillusioned that he thinks he's some kind of Moneyball genius who can work with the pathetic excuse for an owner's budget that is given to him, I think it's time for him to grow a pair and resign. Expose Wang for the fraud that he is. No one will be surprised really, especially not us fans, and I can see a lot more good than bad coming out of it happening, especially if it pushes Wang more in the direction to sell.

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03-23-2013, 05:56 PM
  #149
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Up until recently I've always been a person with the idea that Snow's hands are tied and he's doing all he can with stingy Wang at the helm. But now it's gotten to the point that Snow has done next to nothing to improve this team.

If he's just been that inactive that he doesn't do anything anymore, he's a terrible GM. But if he is really that powerless under Wang that he can't do a damn thing to improve the team, he should take a move out of the playbook of what many Wall Street bankers have recently done: resign and go public about what a sham Wang's ownership is.

Snow has to understand that in the public eye, the perpetual bottom of the standings laughing stock this team has become is on him because of his position. If I was in a job where upper management prevented me from doing what I needed to do and the resulting poor performance of the company reflected badly on me because of my position, I don't think I would continue working for that company.

The argument can be made that Snow will look bad blasting his former employer and hurt his future job opportunities, but is it really that much worse than the harm of bottom-five finish year after year brings to a GM's reputation?

Unless he is that disillusioned that he thinks he's some kind of Moneyball genius who can work with the pathetic excuse for an owner's budget that is given to him, I think it's time for him to grow a pair and resign. Expose Wang for the fraud that he is. No one will be surprised really, especially not us fans, and I can see a lot more good than bad coming out of it happening, especially if it pushes Wang more in the direction to sell.
Not to defend Snow, but that's easy to say if one knows they can easily find another job elsewhere.

If Snow was an established guy who has already proven he's a quality GM, and knows teams will be knocking on his door the second he's gone, it would be easier to "out" Wang like that. But what has Snow accomplished in his career that would suggest any other team would pick him up if he burned his bridges with the Islanders?

Snow is in a position in New York that he probably wouldn't be in in any other NHL city, and I'm quite sure he realizes that. He's got a good thing going in New York because he's got a job as an NHL GM. Why speak out against Wang and risk no longer being employed as an NHL GM?

It's the same reason Jack Capuano doesn't rock the boat. While he might get frustrated with the roster he's been given, he also understands that he's lucky to just have a job as an NHL coach. So he shuts up and takes it, because the alternative is a career back in the AHL riding the buses.

Speaking out may earn them more "respect" from the fans, but in reality these are two individuals (Snow and Capuano) that realize they're just lucky to be paid as NHL staff, and that anywhere else they're not likely to get this kind of opportunity because frankly, neither has proven they deserve the jobs they have.

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03-24-2013, 02:49 AM
  #150
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Not to defend Snow, but that's easy to say if one knows they can easily find another job elsewhere.

If Snow was an established guy who has already proven he's a quality GM, and knows teams will be knocking on his door the second he's gone, it would be easier to "out" Wang like that. But what has Snow accomplished in his career that would suggest any other team would pick him up if he burned his bridges with the Islanders?

Snow is in a position in New York that he probably wouldn't be in in any other NHL city, and I'm quite sure he realizes that. He's got a good thing going in New York because he's got a job as an NHL GM. Why speak out against Wang and risk no longer being employed as an NHL GM?

It's the same reason Jack Capuano doesn't rock the boat. While he might get frustrated with the roster he's been given, he also understands that he's lucky to just have a job as an NHL coach. So he shuts up and takes it, because the alternative is a career back in the AHL riding the buses.

Speaking out may earn them more "respect" from the fans, but in reality these are two individuals (Snow and Capuano) that realize they're just lucky to be paid as NHL staff, and that anywhere else they're not likely to get this kind of opportunity because frankly, neither has proven they deserve the jobs they have.
And remember, NOLAN, a coach who was respected and blackballed, knew he'd have trouble if he rocked the boat but eventually had enough and spoke out....and was reprimanded. Not starting Ricky or commenting on the roster he was given.....he did it.

And is still unemployed {though I believe he has had offers since we "upgraded" to Scorched Scrotum and later Jocko Cappicola}.

Snow won't speak up. Cappy is starting to get curt, though....each new post-loss/game, he's more animated and reprehensive. I hope he lashes out and earns some respect in the league for calling out a bad ownership.

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