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Ryan O'Reilly : The Return [no, not that kind of return :(]; Thread 5

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Old
02-16-2013, 12:38 PM
  #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drury_Sakic View Post
I would love to do a trade with the Jackets. Send him to rot with the Jackets.

Avs Get:
Jack Johnson
Derick Brassard

Jackets Get:
Ryan O'Reilly
Matt Hunwick

Reunite Johnson and Johnson on the blueline from the Olympics, giving the Avs a legit top pairing on D. Brassard adds some depth at center and still has some top 2 line potential.

Jackets would probably never do that deal, but you never know....
JJ is very important to CBJ.
I doubt that they'd trade him.

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02-16-2013, 12:43 PM
  #277
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I think the entire, 'he can't earn MORE than Duchene' is completely overblown and absolutely SPECULATION. Especially when you compare other comparable bridge deals throughout the league. Sure, there are some guys that come out of ELC and teams are forking over a ton over a long term - Eberle, Hall, E.Kane, Tavares but at the same time, all of those players had proven more than RoR did at that same point in their careers. Subban was pretty much in the same situation as RoR and the Avs offered him quite a bit more over 2 years, I'm not sure I'm seeing what the problem is other than the fact that he want's to be traded.



Like I said, you're putting to much stock into what's been 'speculated'. If Duchene had signed an extremely, even more team friendly contract at $2M per, would the expectations had been that RoR couldn't earn more than that? Ridiculous! There's not just the team but the rest of the league to consider when making comparables. Duchene DIDN'T WANT to attempt to take the team to the cleaners and get a contract that was comparable to Tavares' and that's HIS RIGHT AS AN INDIVIDUAL. It shouldn't have any bearing on what RoR signs for.
Is it speculation that the Avs feel that they can't pay O'Reilly more than Duchene? Sure it is. However I do feel that it's odd that Negotiations have essentially been cut off at the 3.5m mark. From there, the Avs are presenting no wiggle room whatsoever.

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02-16-2013, 01:14 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Is it speculation that the Avs feel that they can't pay O'Reilly more than Duchene? Sure it is. However I do feel that it's odd that Negotiations have essentially been cut off at the 3.5m mark. From there, the Avs are presenting no wiggle room whatsoever.
They had already given him much wiggle room before that.

3.5 AAV for 2y is already an overpayment for O'Reilly.

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02-16-2013, 01:16 PM
  #279
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I imagine Duchene isn't as much of a little baby b**** as O'Reilly seems to be. So giving him a hair more money than Duchene for now shouldn't really hurt Duchene that much.

When 2-3 years go by, there will be a much larger gap between Duchene (7 million) and O'Reilly 4.5M than there is today.

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02-16-2013, 01:45 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
Is it speculation that the Avs feel that they can't pay O'Reilly more than Duchene? Sure it is. However I do feel that it's odd that Negotiations have essentially been cut off at the 3.5m mark. From there, the Avs are presenting no wiggle room whatsoever.
Based on his THREE years in the NHL, I don't see another NHL comparable that suggests we should be paying him MORE than $3.5M per season. Do you? If so, who's the comparable?

If anything, you'd think Duchene would be 'hurt' that RoR doesn't have the same stats over 3 years and still getting the same deal. Instead of focusing on that sort of crap, Duchene has decided on getting the contract stuff out of the way early and focusing on doing what he needs to do to make himself and the team successful going forward. On the other hand, it would appear that RoR has decided on focusing on himself and his 'predicament'.

If the Avs were TRULY low-balling him with an offer under $3M or something like that, I'd absolutely be on his side and would completely understand his position. That's not really the case though.

It's funny (well not really) to look back at what we all said in the FIRST version of this EPIC THREAD SAGA:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1301789

This is what I posted on the day he signed with Magnitogorsk:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=80
and
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...7&postcount=85

BoC was the first one to suggest:
"This only furthers my theory that Ryan's gonna get Drury'd out of town."
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...9&postcount=48

Looks like Vorky was right about everything! lol

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02-16-2013, 02:12 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post
Based on his THREE years in the NHL, I don't see another NHL comparable that suggests we should be paying him MORE than $3.5M per season. Do you? If so, who's the comparable?
Jordan Staal. Offense may have started slower, but he's quite close.

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02-16-2013, 02:27 PM
  #282
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Posing another theory, since we've had so much fun so far and have burned through all the multiple pieces we can get...

In the very small chance the Avs could work a package around ROR for your dream top tier Dman (Staal, McDonagh, Karlsson-previous to injury, Pieterangelo, Doughty, etc)...

What would you be willing to add into the package with picks/prospects/etc knowing the Avs would have to fill other gaps via free agency etc?

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02-16-2013, 02:43 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Posing another theory, since we've had so much fun so far and have burned through all the multiple pieces we can get...

In the very small chance the Avs could work a package around ROR for your dream top tier Dman (Staal, McDonagh, Karlsson-previous to injury, Pieterangelo, Doughty, etc)...

What would you be willing to add into the package with picks/prospects/etc knowing the Avs would have to fill other gaps via free agency etc?
Anything in the system. Including our 1st round pick. Only exclusions are Duchene and Landeskog.

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02-16-2013, 02:56 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Jordan Staal. Offense may have started slower, but he's quite close.
He's close, but he had proven more at the same age. His second and third seasons were very similar to O'Reilly offensively, but in his rookie season he put up 29 goals and 42 points. That 29 goals as a rookie carries a lot of weight.

Plus he had three years in the playoffs, including two lengthy runs where he played a big defensive role, and a Stanley Cup. Ryan, while I think he will be a very good playoff player in the same mold, only has one short six game run in the playoffs to put on the table.

Those kind of things matter in negotiations.

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02-16-2013, 03:06 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
Jordan Staal. Offense may have started slower, but he's quite close.
Jordan Staal had 29 goals his first season and 42 points. Then an off year his second year with only 28 points and bounced back with a 22 goal - 49 point season. So yeah, it's close but it's STILL two 40+ seasons vs two 26 pt season and one 55 point season. It's 119 points vs 107 points and when you take into consideration the considerable upside of a #2 overall pick, $500,000K difference between what the Avs are offering and what Staal signed is about right, in my opinion anyways.

Having said all that, does RoR truly believe that he's better than Jordan Staal?? I can't understand for the life of me how ANYONE can really look at this situation and think that the Avs are screwing over RoR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Posing another theory, since we've had so much fun so far and have burned through all the multiple pieces we can get...

In the very small chance the Avs could work a package around ROR for your dream top tier Dman (Staal, McDonagh, Karlsson-previous to injury, Pieterangelo, Doughty, etc)...

What would you be willing to add into the package with picks/prospects/etc knowing the Avs would have to fill other gaps via free agency etc?
Ok so, let's say it's for Marc Staal...a deal that I've mentioned I'd be fine with. (Also, I think that's probably the most available out of that list...maybe the only one)

I'd be fine with giving up a guy like Hunwick 'cuz I'm just not a big fan. He's not as bad as he used to be but still turns over the puck NIGHTLY.

R. O'byrne - because he's an upcoming UFA and I don't think we're going to sign him. He's probably a bottom pairing guy anyways. I wouldn't mind keeping him but I don't think he's good enough for top-4 duty.

Wilson would require another piece coming back from the Rangers. A guy like Bryan Boyle who's big and can take faceoffs and play on the PK could be useful.

Gaunce - He MIGHT be able to make it as a bottom pairing/depth guy at this point but I don't think he has top-4 potential.

Millan - Never really been a fan of this guy. Out of our 4 goalie prospects, he's the one I would deem the most expendable.

I wouldn't be on board with parting with guys like Siemens, Barrie, Elliott, Sgarbossa or Troy Bourke at this point.

----------------

So for me, the idea is that you acquire a guy like Marc Staal and play him with EJ 25-26 minutes a night (instead of the 20-22 mins EJ is playing this season) and they make a formidable duo. They would take some of the pressure off the 2nd pairing (less minutes). I think Staal can be a steadying defensive presence that would allow EJ to let his offensive game come out. Staal still was able to put up 29 points a few years back and has 8 points in 13 games already this year so it's not like he doesn't have an offensive component to his game.

Probably lots of people will disagree but I'm a big Marc Staal fan.

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02-16-2013, 03:09 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He's close, but he had proven more at the same age. His second and third seasons were very similar to O'Reilly offensively, but in his rookie season he put up 29 goals and 42 points. That 29 goals as a rookie carries a lot of weight.

Plus he had three years in the playoffs, including two lengthy runs where he played a big defensive role, and a Stanley Cup. Ryan, while I think he will be a very good playoff player in the same mold, only has one short six game run in the playoffs to put on the table.

Those kind of things matter in negotiations.
Very good point!

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02-16-2013, 03:11 PM
  #287
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My argument hypothetically would be with the increase in the cap and O'Reilly being every bit as good defensively as Staal, this was Ryan's breakout year on the way to being like Jordan. So offering up 4-4.25 to match Jordan is closer to fair.

The real problem here is Jordan got his contract to end being a RFA, so if Avs want to go past 4 years, he wants more than Jordan got. On a shorter deal I see 4-4.25 being the highest Ryan can reasonably negotiate himself towards.

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02-16-2013, 03:12 PM
  #288
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Jordan Staal was a #2 overall pick and that matters (both in terms of 'reputation' and the players ELC being higher).

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02-16-2013, 04:06 PM
  #289
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Hey, not an Avs fan here but just curious to hear from the guys who've watched him play the last three years. How good of a player do you think he is/how good of a player do you think he can be? Always found there's no better way to get an opinion of a player than asking the fanbase of the team that player is on.

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02-16-2013, 04:22 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Petter Granberg View Post
Hey, not an Avs fan here but just curious to hear from the guys who've watched him play the last three years. How good of a player do you think he is/how good of a player do you think he can be? Always found there's no better way to get an opinion of a player than asking the fanbase of the team that player is on.
Top ten center on the planet, best in the past 25 years.

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02-16-2013, 04:27 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Petter Granberg View Post
Hey, not an Avs fan here but just curious to hear from the guys who've watched him play the last three years. How good of a player do you think he is/how good of a player do you think he can be? Always found there's no better way to get an opinion of a player than asking the fanbase of the team that player is on.
He can be a Patrice Bergeron clone.
He isn't there yet, but he is very mature and refined considering his age.

EDIT: Yes, also the post above. (Mant) Best defensive center in the past 25 years.

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02-16-2013, 04:27 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Petter Granberg View Post
Hey, not an Avs fan here but just curious to hear from the guys who've watched him play the last three years. How good of a player do you think he is/how good of a player do you think he can be? Always found there's no better way to get an opinion of a player than asking the fanbase of the team that player is on.
Shutdown defense, 60 point offense and most likely top five in Selke voting. Pretty much everything you'd want in a second line center.

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02-16-2013, 04:41 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post

----------------

So for me, the idea is that you acquire a guy like Marc Staal and play him with EJ 25-26 minutes a night (instead of the 20-22 mins EJ is playing this season) and they make a formidable duo. They would take some of the pressure off the 2nd pairing (less minutes). I think Staal can be a steadying defensive presence that would allow EJ to let his offensive game come out. Staal still was able to put up 29 points a few years back and has 8 points in 13 games already this year so it's not like he doesn't have an offensive component to his game.

Probably lots of people will disagree but I'm a big Marc Staal fan.
I'm thinking the same way. Assuming that Avs can't find a deal with multiple quality pieces coming back, finding a established top tier #1/2 Dman seems way harder to get than some of the wings and Dmen in the other offers.

I really would hate to see our 1st and/or Wilson moved (I see more in him than many on here I think) but for a top 2 puy, I'd live with it.

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02-16-2013, 05:13 PM
  #294
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We have a poll going on our board on whether Gardiner or Kadri would be enough for ROR - it's pretty lopsided in favour of not going after ROR at all, but I would like him on our roster.

Would either of these guys get it done for ROR straight up? If not, what else would you want, or do you think the pieces are just not there for anything to happen?

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02-16-2013, 05:19 PM
  #295
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We have a poll going on our board on whether Gardiner or Kadri would be enough for ROR - it's pretty lopsided in favour of not going after ROR at all, but I would like him on our roster.

Would either of these guys get it done for ROR straight up? If not, what else would you want, or do you think the pieces are just not there for anything to happen?
The obvious answer is that we have no clue. Avs works in mysterious ways.

It's hard seeing Kadri being a good fit there, unless Avs were completely sold on him as a winger. It's equally hard to know what they think of Gardiner. If they see him as a future #1, they obviously would be interested. If they see him as a future #3-4, not as much.

A side note on Gardiner. If he was involved in any trade talks I would think he would have been recalled from Marlies and being put in the game today but he's still with the Marlies.

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02-16-2013, 05:37 PM
  #296
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Can't they freaking just try to resign him like seriously.

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02-16-2013, 05:39 PM
  #297
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We have a poll going on our board on whether Gardiner or Kadri would be enough for ROR - it's pretty lopsided in favour of not going after ROR at all, but I would like him on our roster.

Would either of these guys get it done for ROR straight up? If not, what else would you want, or do you think the pieces are just not there for anything to happen?
Hmm I just checked it out and had the pleasure to witness a few guys arguing if Gardiner + Grabovski for ROR + Siemens + Avs 1st is a deal they would make or not. They were pretty split. Pretty good stuff....

I for one do not believe there is a deal to be made (or atleast should not) between the Avs and Leafs unless Nonis goes stupid and offers up Rielly or Sherman wants to get canned.

Kadri, Frattin look great but are unproven and Gardiner in his current situation should not be the centerpiece we want in return. Not because he is not good or has no potential. He is good and has loads but he is way too risky right now.

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02-16-2013, 05:54 PM
  #298
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Hmm I just checked it out and had the pleasure to witness a few guys arguing if Gardiner + Grabovski for ROR + Siemens + Avs 1st is a deal they would make or not. They were pretty split. Pretty good stuff....

I for one do not believe there is a deal to be made (or atleast should not) between the Avs and Leafs unless Nonis goes stupid and offers up Rielly or Sherman wants to get canned.

Kadri, Frattin look great but are unproven and Gardiner in his current situation should not be the centerpiece we want in return. Not because he is not good or has no potential. He is good and has loads but he is way too risky right now.
It certainly was interesting reading through their thread on the matter.

Like every fanbase, you have great posters/fans and then you have not-so-great posters/fans. Even we have those.

But what the "not-so-great" posters/fans have to realize is that trades like these aren't usually lopsided in one team's favor. They might end up being lopsided, and true lopsided trades can still happen, it just usually doesn't happen anymore.

The Kessel trade really only looks bad because of where Boston was able to pick, while still being a good team. Obviously Burke thought that Kessel was the missing piece that would help get Toronto into the playoffs and do some damage. Case in point, if Toronto makes the PO's and actually does well in them, then you're looking at mid-to-late round 1st rounders, definitely changes the outlook of that trade.

But you're right Joem...someone who says that they're "not sure they'd do Gardiner + Grabovski for ROR, Siemens and 2013 1st Rd" is just someone who is incredibly overrating their own players while criminally underrating ours.

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02-16-2013, 06:10 PM
  #299
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Many HF posters don't watch much hockey outside their favorite team but speak in absolutes about other teams player. That's the charm. Today I have learned:

* Kadri is untouchable but O'Reilly is a small unproven center.

* In a Gagner for O'Reilly swap, Avs would have to add.

HF is a gift that keeps on giving.

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02-16-2013, 06:18 PM
  #300
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I really wish we would just keep O'Reilly, if/when we ever get to the playoffs, I would want to watch him work his magic.

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