HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-19-2013, 02:28 PM
  #326
markrander87
Registered User
 
markrander87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I would keep Propp where he is & slot Kerr on the 4th line. That way Kerr can almost play the full 2 minutes on the PP.


.
I don't agree with the bolded. Just because a player plays small minutes on a 4th line it doesn't mean he can automatically play the entire PP. Especially a guy like Kerr who will be battling it out in front of the net.

markrander87 is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:30 PM
  #327
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I don't agree with the bolded. Just because a player plays small minutes on a 4th line it doesn't mean he can automatically play the entire PP. Especially a guy like Kerr who will be battling it out in front of the net.
Yeah, that's true.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:31 PM
  #328
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,390
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I don't agree with the bolded. Just because a player plays small minutes on a 4th line it doesn't mean he can automatically play the entire PP. Especially a guy like Kerr who will be battling it out in front of the net.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah, that's true.
Agree.. part of the reason Kerr has so many back problems was from absorbing the liberal 80s crosschecks to the back while planting himself in front.

BraveCanadian is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:38 PM
  #329
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I don't agree with the bolded. Just because a player plays small minutes on a 4th line it doesn't mean he can automatically play the entire PP. Especially a guy like Kerr who will be battling it out in front of the net.
Agree with the bolded...playing in front of the net is going to wear a player down more than any other position on the PP. I find it much more plausible that a pointman or forward on the halfboards be able to play the entire (or almost the entire) PP. For guys like that, if their team has possession most of the time I think it's fairly easy for them to stay out there. If the play gets broken up by the other team and they have to skate back to their own end and rush the puck up a lot, then they won't be able to stay out as long. On the other hand, the guys battling in front of the net and digging the puck out of the corners after missed shots are going to get tired regardless of whether their team has possession or not.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:39 PM
  #330
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,411
vCash: 500
You guys are probably right. But then, if you can't give Kerr significant PP time, and he's not good enough to play on the second line ...

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:44 PM
  #331
ck26
Free Raptor Reagan
 
ck26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Coyotes Bandwagon
Country: United States
Posts: 8,507
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I don't agree with the bolded. Just because a player plays small minutes on a 4th line it doesn't mean he can automatically play the entire PP. Especially a guy like Kerr who will be battling it out in front of the net.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah, that's true.
In the playoffs against Nicklas Lidstrom? Sure he can.

Against Eddie Shore? Ehh …

I won't think twice about leaving Sergei Zubov on the point for all 2 minutes of my power play against Guy Carbonneau, but if the other guys have Sergei Fedorov killing penalties, that might not be worth the risk of a fatigued defenseman getting burned for a shortie 100 seconds in ...

ck26 is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:46 PM
  #332
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
You guys are probably right. But then, if you can't give Kerr significant PP time, and he's not good enough to play on the second line ...
You can definitely give him "significant" PP time, just not "almost the whole thing."

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:49 PM
  #333
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You can definitely give him "significant" PP time, just not "almost the whole thing."
Significant PP time in my mind would be more than regular 1stPP minutes, let's sat something around 1:20-to 1:30. It also depend how many powerplay opportunity you get in a game. What amount of time would you consider ''significant''?

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:55 PM
  #334
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Significant PP time in my mind would be more than regular 1stPP minutes, let's sat something around 1:20-to 1:30. It also depend how many powerplay opportunity you get in a game. What amount of time would you consider ''significant''?
I think Kerr could play about 1:20 of the PP. That seems on the high end of normal for a first unit forward.

I'm assuming Phil Esposito plays 1:10-1:40 of my PP depending on how the PP goes, since he was famous for his long shifts and didn't often get injured, while my other first until forwards play 1:10-1:20. The pointmen can play 1:30 to the full 2:00 depending on how the PP goes.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:57 PM
  #335
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,872
vCash: 500
I'm up in a few picks...who can take a list?

Hawkey Town 18 is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 02:58 PM
  #336
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
I'm up in a few picks...who can take a list?
I can. I go right after you.

Edit: Got it


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-19-2013 at 03:17 PM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:01 PM
  #337
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 8,037
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Significant PP time in my mind would be more than regular 1stPP minutes, let's sat something around 1:20-to 1:30. It also depend how many powerplay opportunity you get in a game. What amount of time would you consider ''significant''?
The problem is that if your powerplay is any good, you generally get limited opportunities to go in for line changes, and when your first unit changes out, it is a good idea to change out the whole unit rather than just one or two players, because you don't know when the puck will next be cleared. This is especially true for net guys. Most teams order their 1st unit forwards to start looking for the change at around the 1:00 mark, and so first unit forwards tend to average around 1:05 - 1:10 per powerplay shift.

The thing is that you can't incrementally increase PP time for forwards with any reliability, and you risk tiring them out on any given shift if you try leaving them in for an extra attack. Defensemen can play a whole shift, if necessary, on any given powerplay that is not a total ****show, so their time can be parsed out more efficiently, from powerplay to powerplay, if necessary, but forwards are more difficult to manage. You just can't easily "overload" one forward in powerplay time without taking the risk of him getting gassed. Forwards who are capable of playing huge PP minutes are rare - Gretzky was one of them - and generally are highly intelligent finesse players whose game is predicated on control rather than strength. Kerr doesn't really fit this profile. He's a top unit PP player for sure, but I'd send him out for a standard line change on the powerplay if he was on my team.

Sturminator is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:06 PM
  #338
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think Kerr could play about 1:20 of the PP. That seems on the high end of normal for a first unit forward.

I'm assuming Phil Esposito plays 1:10-1:40 of my PP depending on how the PP goes, since he was famous for his long shifts and didn't often get injured, while my other first until forwards play 1:10-1:20. The pointmen can play 1:30 to the full 2:00 depending on how the PP goes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
The problem is that if your powerplay is any good, you generally get limited opportunities to go in for line changes, and when your first unit changes out, it is a good idea to change out the whole unit rather than just one or two players, because you don't know when the puck will next be cleared. This is especially true for net guys. Most teams order their 1st unit forwards to start looking for the change at around the 1:00 mark, and so first unit forwards tend to average around 1:05 - 1:10 per powerplay shift.

The thing is that you can't incrementally increase PP time for forwards with any reliability, and you risk tiring them out on any given shift if you try leaving them in for an extra attack. Defensemen can play a whole shift, if necessary, on any given powerplay that is not a total ****show, so their time can be parsed out more efficiently, from powerplay to powerplay, if necessary, but forwards are more difficult to manage. You just can't easily "overload" one forward in powerplay time without taking the risk of him getting gassed. Forwards who are capable of playing huge PP minutes are rare - Gretzky was one of them - and generally are highly intelligent finesse players whose game is predicated on control rather than strength. Kerr doesn't really fit this profile. He's a top unit PP player for sure, but I'd send him out for a standard line change on the powerplay if he was on my team.

Good assessment of the situation. Makes sense.

On that note, I will wait another 55 minutes, and if I havn't got any news from Dave, I will select. Does it sound like a nice compromise? BTW, is the next person in line online and ready to select?

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:07 PM
  #339
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Fair enough, sounds like decent numbers on all account.

On that note, I will wait another 55 minutes, and if I havn't got any news from Dave, I will select. Does it sound like a nice compromise? BTW, is the next person in line online and ready to select?
Good point. No need for you to rush if the next person isn't even online. (Of course, don't miss your clock!)

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:18 PM
  #340
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I can. I go right after you.

Edit: Got it
sent

Hawkey Town 18 is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #341
BubbaBoot
Registered User
 
BubbaBoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Fenway
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 11,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Agree.. part of the reason Kerr has so many back problems was from absorbing the liberal 80s crosschecks to the back while planting himself in front.
Then how are we to assess this she-bang?

Do we have them on a line and speculate how that line would play in today's NHL?

Or do we have each player on the same line playing in their own era?

We are trying to mix and match players with their known attributes along now with how a particular coaches style too.....and how do we judge them against opponents in this draft?

In today's NHL Kerr could draw a lot of penalties. He could also develop into a flopper to get those penalties. He could also be a horrendous player if he were in the pre-forward pass era. He also could've been THE man during the WW2 years. In today's NHL Bobby Orr would've had access to modern medical procedures, thusly, in theory, could've been able to play until his 40's.....or he could've gotten pancaked by a meteor when leaving the hospital.

There is no tried and true method or algorithm to assess this.

BubbaBoot is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:52 PM
  #342
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,411
vCash: 500
I always compare players to the era they played in, like every player on the ice playswith the set of rules they had during their time.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 03:59 PM
  #343
BubbaBoot
Registered User
 
BubbaBoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Fenway
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 11,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pretty sure that Kerr in the 190s and early 200s was only a recent development. This is about where he used to go, IIRC. Then HHH managed to sell Kerr hard (IMO, oversell him) in ATD2010, and he skyrocketed for two drafts (ATD2011 and 2012) before falling back to earth in this draft.

Anyway, enough ragging on Kerr. AT this point in the draft, it's probably a good strategy to draft his unique skillset over a more well-rounded player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour
I thought Tim Kerr was pretty much always taken from 190-to-240. I think at this point he's an excellent selection.
Actually, way back in the olden days of this draft he went a helluva lot higher:

#12 Tim Kerr,RW/C-6'3" 225 (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=10777) "Kerr was known around the junior leagues as a slow skater who parked himself in the slot, collecting his share of "garbage" goals.Tim was an almost unmovable presence in the slot during his prime. Hockey Hall of Famer Bryan Trottier once joked that the only way to stop Kerr was to wrap chains around his arms and legs.He attracted plenty of harsh attention from checkers, but Kerr was neither deterred nor drawn into taking penalties for retaliation.


Drafted By:
Draft 1-130 Herby
Draft 2-143 monkey_00
Draft 3-175 Bergeron47
Draft 4-167 kruezer
Draft 5-185 jtuzzi

BubbaBoot is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:04 PM
  #344
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Actually, way back in the olden days of this draft he went a helluva lot higher:

#12 Tim Kerr,RW/C-6'3" 225 (http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...p?player=10777) "Kerr was known around the junior leagues as a slow skater who parked himself in the slot, collecting his share of "garbage" goals.Tim was an almost unmovable presence in the slot during his prime. Hockey Hall of Famer Bryan Trottier once joked that the only way to stop Kerr was to wrap chains around his arms and legs.He attracted plenty of harsh attention from checkers, but Kerr was neither deterred nor drawn into taking penalties for retaliation.


Drafted By:
Draft 1-130 Herby
Draft 2-143 monkey_00
Draft 3-175 Bergeron47
Draft 4-167 kruezer
Draft 5-185 jtuzzi
Oh, I never followed drafts back then, but I guess you're right, he went that high in ATD12 and ATD2010 too.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:09 PM
  #345
BubbaBoot
Registered User
 
BubbaBoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Fenway
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 11,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I always compare players to the era they played in, like every player on the ice playswith the set of rules they had during their time.
Even on the same line?

Can you imagine Orr and Shore on the same pairing? How would that work? What would Shore do if he were playing the Flyers of Orr's era and was called on to answer for his special style by one of those famed "tough" Flyers policemen?

Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?

BubbaBoot is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:12 PM
  #346
Darth Yoda
Registered User
 
Darth Yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Grovebranch's Crease
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,111
vCash: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?
Have you allready talked about the average size of players during Shores days and in the later decades? Surely he would grow some inches when going up against later players. You wanna fight a 6'2" 220 pound Eddie Shore? He'd have to have crippled Tyler Seguin if i were Chara.

Darth Yoda is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:16 PM
  #347
Johnny Engine
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,672
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Even on the same line?

Can you imagine Orr and Shore on the same pairing? How would that work? What would Shore do if he were playing the Flyers of Orr's era and was called on to answer for his special style by one of those famed "tough" Flyers policemen?

Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?
Keeping things relative, I would imagine Shore would have a similar amount of edge to his game as Chris Pronger - both guys are the dirtiest, meanest impact defensemen of their time, even though the actual things they did were very different.

Although, with this level of competition, we're still looking at a defenseman that's Pronger-level mean who has to go up against at least one forward as tough as Iginla every single game. Keeping that in mind.

Johnny Engine is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:16 PM
  #348
BubbaBoot
Registered User
 
BubbaBoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Fenway
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 11,065
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Have you allready talked about the average size of players during Shores days and in the seventies? Surely Orr would grow somw inches when going up against later players? You wanna fight a 6'2" Eddie Shore? He'd have to have crippled Bobby Clarke if i were Schultz.
He was known to be a tad beyond the rules....who knows? That's my point, it is all conjecture, speculation, subjective, woulda, shoulda, coulda....

BubbaBoot is offline  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #349
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 42,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Even on the same line?

Can you imagine Orr and Shore on the same pairing? How would that work? What would Shore do if he were playing the Flyers of Orr's era and was called on to answer for his special style by one of those famed "tough" Flyers policemen?

Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?
If Shore played today, he would have grown up with the same nutritional standards as players who played today and his size relative to his peers would have been about the same.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now  
Old
02-19-2013, 04:18 PM
  #350
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Oh, I never followed drafts back then, but I guess you're right, he went that high in ATD12 and ATD2010 too.
The first 6-7 ATD are definitely not great example to follow. I alwasy concentrate on the last two-three drafts at most. We learn so much every draft that the older one gets obsolete rather quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Even on the same line?

Can you imagine Orr and Shore on the same pairing? How would that work? What would Shore do if he were playing the Flyers of Orr's era and was called on to answer for his special style by one of those famed "tough" Flyers policemen?

Despite his reputation, do you think he'd alter his style a bit if he knew he'd have to go up against a 6'7" giant and get ragdolled and knocked into next week like the current Bruins tough guy did.....or would he bravely soldier on?
Yes, you need a lot of imagination in this draft. There's no method, but I try to simplify it the best I can: if someone was tough in his era, he will be tough in the ATD, good goalscorer in his era, good goalscorer in the ATD etc ... Not that complicated actually!

----

Is the next person to pick ready to make his selection? As soon as he's around I will select.

EagleBelfour is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:20 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.