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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-21-2013, 10:04 AM
  #576
Sturminator
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Also, even if we take Stamkos' current totals (without projection), is he all that different from a guy like Frank McGee, who only had a four year career and retired at 23?

What separates Stamkos from Kevin Stevens - who also had a very short peak (though, his career was longer) but, has significant injury and character concerns.

(For the record, I didn't think Stevens or McGee were bad picks)
Stevens was a good pick. Of course, he was just recently selected. I actually think Stamkos is better than McGee, but then again, I think Frank McGee is ideally a 4th liner in the ATD.

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02-21-2013, 10:09 AM
  #577
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Longevity has to be adjusted somewhat for era, and Drillon did lose prime years to the war. It is not entirely clear how we should value his war years, but Gordie was only 29 when he went into the service. He may not be "way ahead", though, you're right. I must admit, I hadn't even considered Stamkos at the time I made that statement. Now please, stop making me defend Gordie Drillon.
I'll knock on the same nail for a third time: he was 29 years old & finish 5th in goalscoring, 8th in overall scoring on his last NHL season. There's no indication he wouldn't of fare very well. Also, 6 seasons in the 1930's 6 seasons in the 21st century. I don't know how 6 seasons should be valued compare to the modern era though.

So, to resume. 6 seasons. But cut short by WWII. 6 seasons in the 1930's 6 seasons in the 21st century.


Don't worry Sturm, I'm here to defend Drillon, you don't need to do it

(BTW, I'm not trying to pimp up Drillon more than he deserve. I just want to give a true statement of his abilities)

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02-21-2013, 10:16 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
It was certainly weaker, but it was in the natural stage of development, no? Couldn't we look at it much the same way we look at Harvey Pulford's generation in Canada pre-WWI, where multi-sport athletes who dabbled in hockey were the norm?

The big question I have about Soviet hockey in this era was how developed it was outside of Moscow. Did anyone else in the country play? I think the modern, post-Communist NHL is the best its ever been, because Russians, Czechs, etc all play, but few non-Canadians played in 1930. I feel like the same limitation applied to early Soviet hockey, which was essentially just Moscow hockey, but I've never seen good information about this. Moscow teams won the hockey league every season under communism, so I don't know how much that helps, and I've only seen two teams (Sverdlovsk and Krasnoyarsk) having league success in bandy.
That's beyond my knowledge. I do know however that Sologubov has many accolades so he was surely an elite soviet at the time. I just dont know if he was better than an average soviet in the seventies. Canadas amateurs did real well against them, it was still some time before they got outplayed and the subsequent boycott. Sweden was not very good back then, and the czechs had first had that accident in 1948 that killed six players, then had a couple jailed in 1950 for strange reasons. The team did not recover from that fully during this era.


Last edited by Darth Yoda: 02-21-2013 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Spellcheck
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Old
02-21-2013, 10:17 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I think it's pretty clear that Drillon would of been a productive if he had play after the 1942-43 season. As I said before: last season in the NHL, 5th in goalscoring, 8th in overall scoring at the age of 29. Better question is: how long would he still have been productive? That is up for debate.

Speed his actually an attribute of Drillon, so I don't see why a faster NHL would affect him. Now, if you wanna knock Drillon down because he never played after the introduction of the red line, you'll have to knock down every players who played in the first 65 years of hockey.
I realize Drillon has some very impressive stats and awards but there is a reason he dropped. I think you have been up front about his shortcomings but I just want to discuss them a little.

It's not just that Drillon didn't play after the red line in general. It is that he specifically didn't play after the game changed, and at an unusually young age. And he was an extreme player in his style - very good at some things and very bad at others, so he may have been more vulnerable to changes.

I'll try to post this later but I read an interview with Cowley where he said that NHL players returning from the war would be surprised by the increase in the speed of the game. It's likely that it took several seasons for the influence of the rule change to take effect.

This is also relevant because the ATD is a high level of play and the ability to make adjustments is important. Take Dave Andreychuk. Once he was past his scoring prime he was able to play a checking role, play different positions, take faceoffs, and play until he was 40. Can Drillon make adjustments if things don't go his way?

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:03 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'm pretty sure that the 1977 WC and the 1981 WC were the only big tournaments where they were regular linemates. In the 1976 WC, it definitely looks like Martinec played with his linemates from Pardubice, i.e. Jiri Novak and Bohuslav Stastny (check out the goals scored by CSSR in the tournament http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistrov...Dm_hokeji_1976*). In the 1976 Canada Cup, it was a bit inconsistent; I believe it was only the 1st final (which they lost 6-0), where Novy and Martinec started and finished the game on the same line. From the 1976 Olympics, I've seen only the USSR game and in that they definitely played on a different line. I think this would be true for other games too.

* Yeah, Wikipedia is not the most reliable source, but I'm pretty convinced those stats are mostly correct. Anyway, it looks like Novy played with Peter Stastny and Jaroslav Pouzar. In the other USSR game, there's a goal scored by P. Stastny, with Martinec and Novy assisting, but I think that was probably a PP goal - or Martinec just hadn't come off the ice yet or vice versa
Thank you for that. I have always really appreciated your input on European players, especially when it comes to information that is only accessible in a language I cannot read.

I guess that clears up 1976. According to the game summaries, Novy and Martinec only connected on a single even-strength point in 1981 at the very end of a blowout against West Germany, so it doesn't appear that they were regular linemates in that tournament. 1977 seems to have been the only time they really played together. That being said, it was a very impressive tournament for the Czechs, probably more impressive than 1976, which was as much a story of Soviet meltdown (Petrov suspended, Maltsev and another important forward injured at the tournament, historic loss to Poland and another loss to Sweden...) as of Czech victory.

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02-21-2013, 11:03 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I realize Drillon has some very impressive stats and awards but there is a reason he dropped. I think you have been up front about his shortcomings but I just want to discuss them a little.

It's not just that Drillon didn't play after the red line in general. It is that he specifically didn't play after the game changed, and at an unusually young age. And he was an extreme player in his style - very good at some things and very bad at others, so he may have been more vulnerable to changes.

I'll try to post this later but I read an interview with Cowley where he said that NHL players returning from the war would be surprised by the increase in the speed of the game. It's likely that it took several seasons for the influence of the rule change to take effect.

This is also relevant because the ATD is a high level of play and the ability to make adjustments is important. Take Dave Andreychuk. Once he was past his scoring prime he was able to play a checking role, play different positions, take faceoffs, and play until he was 40. Can Drillon make adjustments if things don't go his way?
I'm always up for a civilize conversation.

- I agree that Dillon would should be viewed higher on a All-Time list than in this draft. He's such a polarizing figure; some elite skills, and some terrible flaws. I agree that Drillon, in this draft, shouldn't be taken in the early 200's, unless you specifically build a line around him, which wouldn't optimal. However, at #361, I believe he was a steal, and a player you just can't pass over, independently of his shortcomings. Why he didn't returned to the NHL after the war? I don't have an answer for you, but it would be foolish and completely random to assume that it's because he was not good enough anymore. War can affect players in various ways. I'll try to find it out though.

- Again, if you harsh on Drillon because he didn't play hockey after the rules changed, then you have to discard a throng who were never affected by rules change. And that include modern players. Will he had been more vulnerable to changes because of his style of play? I think it is a fair assumption, but still remain an assumption only.

- I don't see how a speedier game would affect his game, especially since: 1) he was a fast skater 2) his game was pretty much shooting hard and accurate shots and parking himself in front of the net for deflection & rebounds. He was not a physical player, but a big man for his era

- Let's put it this way: there's three answers I can give you on the question Can a hockey player make adjustments if things don't go his way? Yes, no & we don't know. Yes would be someone like Dave Andreychuk, as in your example. I'm trying to find an example on someone who couldn't adjust to rule change, but I don't why I'm blanking. Still, you get the point: someone who after a rule change was not as effective as he use to be. Last, we don't know: that's Gordie Drillon, among about 90% of All-Time hockey players who never ''suffered'' a big rule change during their career. I will repeat what I said earlier: Will Drillon had been more vulnerable to changes because of his style of play? I think it is a fair assumption, but still remain an assumption only.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:13 AM
  #582
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Hey guys, just to keep you updated on where we are. I'm waiting to hear back from Dreakmur on who to select here. We'll select before 3 EST I'm sure.

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Old
02-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #583
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Hey guys, just to keep you updated on where we are. I'm waiting to hear back from Dreakmur on who to select here. We'll select before 3 EST I'm sure.
Oh, we're up? I can't access PMs on my phone for some reason.

Done work in 30 minutes, and headed home, so we'll hopefully pick within the hour.

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02-21-2013, 12:20 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I guess that clears up 1976. According to the game summaries, Novy and Martinec only connected on a single even-strength point in 1981 at the very end of a blowout against West Germany, so it doesn't appear that they were regular linemates in that tournament. 1977 seems to have been the only time they really played together. That being said, it was a very impressive tournament for the Czechs, probably more impressive than 1976, which was as much a story of Soviet meltdown (Petrov suspended, Maltsev and another important forward injured at the tournament, historic loss to Poland and another loss to Sweden...) as of Czech victory.
Bolded. Well, okay, maybe not. I just remember that a Finnish hockey book has a recap of the 1981 World Championships, and they write something about CSSR's 'veteran line', and I was sort of convinced that the line was either Martinec-Novy-Pouzar or M-N-Ebermann. But you're right, the box scores from the 1981 WC don't really support my notion that Martinec and Novy played together in the tournament - regularly, that is.

Don't forget that in the 1977 WC, the Czechs unforgivably lost 8-2 to Canada and 6-1 to USSR, so they also played some less-than-impressive games and IMO were basically lucky to win the world championship (thanks to USSR's 'kryptonite' in the tournament = Sweden)
But it's true that Soviet Union was clearly stronger in 1977 than in 1976, and Czechoslovakia did manage to win them once (by a score of 4-3*). Sweden was also stronger in 1977 than a year before and CSSR beat them twice... although only by a goal both times.
There was also no Canada in the 1976 WC, but in 1977, Czechoslovakia could only manage a tie (3-3) and suffered that horrible loss against them...
But as I've said before about 1977: strange, strange WC

* Some Martinec-Novy(-Ebermann) highlights vs USSR (the whole medal round game is on YouTube):
1-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPmNhL6uDAI&t=5m25s
4-0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPmNhL6uDAI&t=39m52s

Edit:
What's the story about Petrov in 1976?


Last edited by VMBM: 02-21-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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Old
02-21-2013, 01:18 PM
  #585
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Edit:
What's the story about Petrov in 1976?
To the best of my knowledge:

This article mentions that the Soviets will be playing without Petrov and "Gosiev", which I'm pretty sure is actually referring to a defenseman of a similar name.

This article mentions that the Soviets were without two of their top two players, who were dropped for disciplinary reasons. One can only assume that it refers to Petrov and "Gosiev".

Finally, this article mentions that the Soviets lost Maltsev and another very good forward early in the tournament. Also says in the next sentence that Balderis was very impressive.

From the box scores, it looks like Maltsev started the tournament centering the Army line with Kharlamov and Mikhailov, but went down early, along with the heretofore Soviet second line center (Maltsev being the normal 2nd line RW). They were already missing Petrov, leaving the team with none of its normal scoringline centers and lacking one of its best wings...obviously a huge disadvantage.

edit: this was around the time that V_T took over the Soviet national team. I'm not sure what the precise timing was, but it was somewhere in this timeframe. Could it be that Petrov and "Gosiev" somehow crossed the new Soviet coach? I don't know.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-21-2013 at 01:25 PM.
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02-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #586
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So Nik gets criticized for taking a 2 time maurice winner but it was fine to take Shea Weber a man who has 2 1st ASTs and really not much else...
It's not really comparable. Each team drafts 6 defensemen, but only 2 scoring line centers, so yes, your #4 defenseman (which I think Weber is) should be quite a bit worse than your #2 center if you were ranking them on an "all-time list," but in this format, they would probably be drafted pretty close to each other. I realize nik is apparently running with a pure scoring 3rd line, but that's definitely unusual.

If Stamkos had the resume he actually has and was a winger, then I think he would have been a pretty good pick, actually. As a center, I'm less convinced.


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02-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #587
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Hey guys sorry. I thought Dreak was going to make the pick. We're going to go with Vic Stasiuk, W.

Thanks for waiting.

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02-21-2013, 03:17 PM
  #588
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What's the story about Petrov in 1976?
Quote:
The USSR, deprived of its super-troika by the sidelining of Vladimir Petrov for disciplinary reasons, can not do better than saving his silver medal far from his habits of domination.
www.passionhockey.com/Archives.html

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02-21-2013, 03:34 PM
  #589
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I need another gun on my front line so that my front line isn't predictable as far as who will be getting the puck and shooting it.

So, even though I'll probably get lynched for this pick, I decided to go with a big guy who can skate and go to the net.

With our next pick in the ATD 2013 Draft Draft, we select:

7-time 30+ goal scorer and Maurice Richard Trophy winner LW Rick Nash

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02-21-2013, 03:39 PM
  #590
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OP, please factor in Edmonton and Trail's recent pick swap, please.

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02-21-2013, 03:44 PM
  #591
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OP, please factor in Edmonton and Trail's recent pick swap, please.
Tony is one of those employed ppl now so he might be busy

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02-21-2013, 03:45 PM
  #592
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OP, please factor in Edmonton and Trail's recent pick swap, please.
Edit: Done. If there are any more trades that need to be processed. Please let me know.

Also with Pick 369 in the 2013 ATD the Baltimore Blades are proud to select Centre Brent Sutter.



A really good 2 way player Sutter is a great way to kick off my 3rd line.

Next has been pmed.

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02-21-2013, 04:07 PM
  #593
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Vancouver rounds out the top four with Teppo Numminen.

The Iron Man Fin will be asked to play a steady reliable game next to his kamikaze-like parter Marcel Pronovost (the best #3 in the league).

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02-21-2013, 04:13 PM
  #594
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Vancouver rounds out the top four with Teppo Numminen.

The Iron Man Fin will be asked to play a steady reliable game next to his kamikaze-like parter Marcel Pronovost (the best #3 in the league).

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02-21-2013, 05:41 PM
  #595
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The Firebirds are proud to select RW Owen Nolan




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Old
02-21-2013, 08:23 PM
  #596
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Hey guys sorry. I thought Dreak was going to make the pick. We're going to go with Vic Stasiuk, W.

Thanks for waiting.
May not be the best player available, but we feel he is the absolute perfect winger to allow us to move Bowie down to the 3rd line. He brings the size, toughness, puck-winning, and 2-way play that some people feel Bowie really needs to be successful. As a bonus, Stasiuk is a decent scorer and playmaker.

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02-21-2013, 08:29 PM
  #597
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Russel Bowie, Gordie Drillon & Steven Stamkos third liner? What the hell is happening in this draft?

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02-21-2013, 08:30 PM
  #598
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We'll complete our third line with Phil Goyette, C


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02-21-2013, 08:35 PM
  #599
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Hey guys sorry. I thought Dreak was going to make the pick. We're going to go with Vic Stasiuk, W.
Ah, Stasiuk, a member of the famous UKE line...a High Scoring line...Excellent in All Facets of the game...Unfairly maligned by the Press...:...Broken up in a dastardly Plot...Leasing to the Decline of Everything...Had the line been kept together for a Few more Years...They would surely have solved World Hunger!!:

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02-21-2013, 08:44 PM
  #600
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Russel Bowie, Gordie Drillon & Steven Stamkos third liner? What the hell is happening in this draft?
My sedin pick started a trend lol.

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