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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:56 AM
  #626
tony d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Sutter's estimated PK usage season by season:

0%
0%
2%
14%
36%
34%
35%
40%
33%
41%
41%
0%
21%
18%
37%
49%
40%
46%
21%
27%
0%
30%
0%
0%
0%
22%

I would use him as a second unit PKer.
Thanks, that was the plan anyway being Clarke will be on my 1st unit as the centre.

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Old
02-22-2013, 04:59 AM
  #627
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Goyette gets a lot of credit for being a "checking liner" in Montreal, but that basically just means he was a depth forward, right? We know that basically for Goyette's entire time in Montreal, Henri Richard got the toughest defensive assignments, right? Then he went to the Rangers and was used mainly as a scorer.

I'm not ragging on the pick - he's a good two-way player here (I considered him as Kovalchuk's center before decided Novy was just too skilled to pass up), but I really don't think he's good enough defensively to use on a third line that will be used for matchup purposes.
For what it's worth, here's what Habs fans think:

http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=58935

This is how that site describes him:

Quote:
Breaking into the lineup to stay in 1957-58, the young center joined a team that already featured Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard at his position. Goyette became a reliable defensive specialist, solidifying his hold on a roster spot with his ability to skate with the best of them, doggedly shadowing his opponent while managing to remain largely within the limits of what officials permitted.
I think Goyette's defensive reputation in Montreal was a good deal better than you're suggesting.

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02-22-2013, 05:03 AM
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
For what it's worth, here's what Habs fans think:

http://canadiens.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=58935

This is how that site describes him:



I think Goyette's defensive reputation in Montreal was a good deal better than you're suggesting.
I've seen that quote before. It's nice to be "reliable" but that's really not all that special in an all-time context. The fan vote is pretty good though - I did a search for Goyette on the history board of this website and the few fans who saw him didn't seem that impressed with his defensive ability, but the site you linked to has a much larger sample of fans.

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Old
02-22-2013, 05:10 AM
  #629
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I've seen that quote before. It's nice to be "reliable" but that's really not all that special in an all-time context. The fan vote is pretty good though - I did a search for Goyette on the history board of this website and the few fans who saw him didn't seem that impressed with his defensive ability, but the site you linked to has a much larger sample of fans.
I wish I had a clear memory of Goyette in New York, but I was a little kid when he wore the blue. I feel kind of dirty going to a Habs site to pimp an old Ranger, but it is my duty.

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02-22-2013, 06:23 AM
  #630
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Well, HHOF calls him 'a reliable scorer who could also check and provide leadership in the dressing room.'

According to Pelletier, 'a noted penalty killer who liked to rag the puck'.

I'll try to go look through newspapers for more if I get the time.
Try searching my old posts for quotes on Gottselig. I found a number of them praising his penalty killing when I had him in 2011.

Gottselig's scoring may also have been affected by Chicago's line usage. Chicago was the first NHL team to roll three lines in 1929-30. They didn't load up their best players on one line, so Gottselig never got to play with Paul Thompson at even strength. They used their best players to kill penalties (Thompson and Gottselig, among others). They played only three forwards on the power play at a time when Detroit, Toronto, Boston, and other teams were sending out their best five forwards or their best four forwards plus Shore or Clancy. It just wasn't a system that was conducive towards putting up high scoring totals.

TDMM mentioned I was pretty hard on Herbie Lewis in a past draft - it was in contrast to Gottselig, because Lewis got to play with great linemates on a first line and played all the time on the best power play in the league, and Gottselig didn't have those advantages.


Last edited by overpass: 02-22-2013 at 06:30 AM.
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Old
02-22-2013, 07:00 AM
  #631
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To be honest, I think Sanderson is overrated in the ATD. He simply wasn't that good an even-strength player. Great penalty-killer, no doubt, but there are still guys out there who were just as good or better on the PK, but were much more valuable at even strength. I see Sanderson as more of a 4th line special teams ringer than a good 3rd line center. He's just not a good offensive player.
I should probably temper that statement a bit. Sanderson's ES production was ok. His even-strength peak looks similar to Brent Sutter's, for example...kind of. But Sutter has that one huge season, and a productive peak that was roughly twice as long as Turk's. It's the combination of not being that great offensively at even strength and a relatively short career that gives me pause when looking at Sanderson. He can definitely do his thing on an ATD 3rd line, but I still think he's always been a bit overrated in this forum.

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02-22-2013, 07:13 AM
  #632
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I should probably temper that statement a bit. Sanderson's ES production was ok. His even-strength peak looks similar to Brent Sutter's, for example...kind of. But Sutter has that one huge season, and a productive peak that was roughly twice as long as Turk's. It's the combination of not being that great offensively at even strength and a relatively short career that gives me pause when looking at Sanderson. He can definitely do his thing on an ATD 3rd line, but I still think he's always been a bit overrated in this forum.
Since traditionally, we look at stats for offense (usually season by season), and quotes, coaching polls, etc, for defense, I don't think we often put enough emphasis on "defensive longevity." Sanderson seems to have been the best defensive center in the world for a couple of years in the early 70s (and like you say, his even strength scoring is pretty good though definitely helped by Orr), but he partied his way out of it in a hurry.

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02-22-2013, 07:17 AM
  #633
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One more note on Gottselig - he probably isn't an all-star in 1938-39 under modern voting rules. Votes were submitted 2 or 3 weeks before the end of the season. Gottselig had led the league in scoring for most of the season but closed with only one point in his last eight games...after the votes were in. Toe Blake was voted ahead of him anyway and with later voting Schriner might well have passed him too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I should probably temper that statement a bit. Sanderson's ES production was ok. His even-strength peak looks similar to Brent Sutter's, for example...kind of. But Sutter has that one huge season, and a productive peak that was roughly twice as long as Turk's. It's the combination of not being that great offensively at even strength and a relatively short career that gives me pause when looking at Sanderson. He can definitely do his thing on an ATD 3rd line, but I still think he's always been a bit overrated in this forum.
Speaking of ES production, have you noticed that hockey-reference has ES/PP/SH assists now?

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Old
02-22-2013, 07:17 AM
  #634
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since traditionally, we look at stats for offense (usually season by season), and quotes, coaching polls, etc, for defense, I don't think we often put enough emphasis on "defensive longevity." Sanderson seems to have been the best defensive center in the world for a couple of years in the early 70s (and like you say, his even strength scoring is pretty good though definitely helped by Orr), but he partied his way out of it in a hurry.
That is correct. It is easier to measure defensive longevity in the Selke era, but for the guys whose careers predate the trophy, we just have to assume that their offensive and defensive peaks roughly coincide, which is generally but not always true. In Sanderson's case, his peak was just plain short, no matter how you slice it, but I don't think he's been knocked very much for that relative to other 3rd line centers thus far.

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02-22-2013, 07:25 AM
  #635
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Speaking of ES production, have you noticed that hockey-reference has ES/PP/SH assists now?
Yes, I have, and it is awesome, though I never minded using your spreadsheet data, either. Looks like they've got goals data back to 1963-64 and complete data back to 1967-68. Wonderful stuff.

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Old
02-22-2013, 07:42 AM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Eskimos picks Derek Sanderson, C

Can't wait to see the Turk's movie when it's finished....his book was a good read.

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Old
02-22-2013, 09:27 AM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Since traditionally, we look at stats for offense (usually season by season), and quotes, coaching polls, etc, for defense, I don't think we often put enough emphasis on "defensive longevity." Sanderson seems to have been the best defensive center in the world for a couple of years in the early 70s (and like you say, his even strength scoring is pretty good though definitely helped by Orr), but he partied his way out of it in a hurry.
Agreed. This is a fair balanced review of his career.

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Old
02-22-2013, 09:37 AM
  #638
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I am going to be gone from 11am EST till 3pm EST today. Is there anyone that's going to be around during that time that I could send something to?

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02-22-2013, 09:46 AM
  #639
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Should be around for the next 2-3 hours.

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Old
02-22-2013, 10:08 AM
  #640
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Can someone update that I have pick 419 as well. Thanks

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Old
02-22-2013, 10:32 AM
  #641
TheDevilMadeMe
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I am going to be gone from 11am EST till 3pm EST today. Is there anyone that's going to be around during that time that I could send something to?
Isn't it awhile before you pick?

Quote:
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Can someone update that I have pick 419 as well. Thanks
How did you get pick 419?

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Old
02-22-2013, 10:35 AM
  #642
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Sorry it was pick 414, and it has since been changed.

To Philadelphia: 380, 541

To Cincinnati: 414, 477,

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Old
02-22-2013, 10:42 AM
  #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I've seen that quote before. It's nice to be "reliable" but that's really not all that special in an all-time context. The fan vote is pretty good though - I did a search for Goyette on the history board of this website and the few fans who saw him didn't seem that impressed with his defensive ability, but the site you linked to has a much larger sample of fans.
The impression I got from doing a bit of research on Goyette was that he wasn't really a defensive ace so much as he was an offensive player that couldn't crack the lineup and needed to do something to stay afloat in Montreal...so he was probably decent defensively, but it probably wasn't a natural fit, born out of necessity basically...

That was just an impression though, I can't really say for sure unless I go back and watch him...

Still a very good player regardless, not knocking the pick...

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Old
02-22-2013, 11:59 AM
  #644
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Montreal select Don Luce , C



Here's the 1970s Buffalo Sabres even-strenght scoring:

Gilbert Perreault ES Points:
70, 68, 65, 64, 64, 63, 62, 58, 55, 52, 51, 47, 44, 43, 40

Rick Martin ES Points:
63, 61, 57, 57, 49, 49, 45, 41, 38

Craig Ramsay ES Points:
63, 58, 54, 50, 46, 46, 45, 42, 40

Don Luce ES Points:
60, 59, 57, 50, 49, 44, 40, 39


xxxxx xxxxxx ES Points:
59, 54, 54, 53, 51, 44, 39, 37

Danny Gare ES Points:
62, 60, 60, 58, 53, 48, 48

The Selke trophy has appeared in the middle or toward the end of Don Luce's prime , so here's his record for the years they awarded the trophy: 3, 4 ,5.The Selke record doesn't count 5 years of Don Luce's peak.

According to overpass' research, Don Luce has the second highest PK usage of any forward in history since they started tracking the stat.Luce was one of the greatest penalty-killers of all-time:
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=767772

Here's an article where Luce talks about how he had always been good offensively, but never got any powerplay time, and had to evolve into a two-way player:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+buffalo&hl=en

Danny Gare talks about Ramsay and Luce being good in the corners:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+buffalo&hl=en

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02-22-2013, 12:20 PM
  #645
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Very nice pick with Luce. He's who I was eyeing if I didn't trade my pick.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:27 PM
  #646
tony d
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I agree, Luce is a good pick, had him last year and the pick was well recieved. Good way to start off a 3rd line.

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Old
02-22-2013, 12:35 PM
  #647
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I liked Luce, but had to go with a better playmaker to get the best effect out of Dillon's goal-scoring.

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02-22-2013, 12:37 PM
  #648
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I was reaaaaally close to going with Luce over Numminen to unite him with Ramsay, and pipe dreamed that he would be there at 399.

Good pick Reen, man.

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02-22-2013, 12:54 PM
  #649
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Can the op please update that I have Hershey's picks at 386,442, and 447. Just don't want there to be no confusion when those picks roll around.

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02-22-2013, 01:21 PM
  #650
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Very nice pick with Luce. He's who I was eyeing if I didn't trade my pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d
I agree, Luce is a good pick, had him last year and the pick was well recieved. Good way to start off a 3rd line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by velociraptor
I liked Luce, but had to go with a better playmaker to get the best effect out of Dillon's goal-scoring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster bertuzzi
I was reaaaaally close to going with Luce over Numminen to unite him with Ramsay, and pipe dreamed that he would be there at 399.

Good pick Reen, man.
Thanks guys.

Don Luce and Joe Klukay will give me a pretty strong PK unit , and they are capable of providing ES offense on top of their two-way play.It's not going to be as offensively talented as some other 3rd lines in the draft , but they'll be very effective in a more traditionnal 3rd line role , which is to chip in at even strenght while being good defensively.They also are pretty big guys and won't be intimidated at all.

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