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ATD 2013 Draft Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-23-2013, 01:45 PM
  #751
monster_bertuzzi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Perreault was the most talented of all of them.

Just ask New York Rangers fans how they like Rick Nash at the moment , it's not because of his productivity per say , it's because he's dangerous and dominating everytime he enters the offensive zone , even if he doesn't score.That can be tiring for the other team and make them nervous , even if that domination doesn't always translate to goals.I think the same was true with Perreault on a higher level.
Agreed, thats where the ''vs2'' numbers and finishes or whatever else you use to rank these people doesn't tell the who story. Out of Hawerchuk, Perreault, Barry, and Thornton....Gilbert is the clear cut best player in my eyes.

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02-23-2013, 01:47 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I have LL's list, he selects Dale Hunter, C
That's a pretty good pick. Dale Hunter has been an underrated two-way player for a long time in the ATD. A lot of GMs seem to treat him like he's a 4th liner, but he's really not. He's a legit 3rd line center, and a pretty good one. He's got a decent Selke record. This is what he got in years when he had at least two top-3 votes: 7, 7, 11, 13. He also had another three seasons in which he got token Selke votes, and even got a 3rd place Hart vote one year.

I get the impression that people who didn't see the Dale play don't realize what an insufferable ******* he was on the ice. He was terrible to play against. One of the dirtiest players I have ever seen, and extremely good at getting away with it: a pest par excellence.

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02-23-2013, 01:51 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
Based on Perreault's scoring finishes, you're saying Robert played alongside a guy who was variously the 5th, 7th or 10th best forward in the league.
Based on draft position, the 5th, 7th and 10th best forwards in this league are Mikita, Richard and Jagr.

Kharlamov might be on the outer reaches of that galaxy, but Hawerchuk is in a different universe.
fair enough but, then why isn't this argument applied to other players as well?

Keven Stevens played with the 2nd best centre and, one of the top RW of all time but, he's fine skating alongside Joe Thornton and Joe Mullen in the ATD.

Esa Tikannen played with the best centre of all-time, and one of the top RW of his era but, no-one blinks when he's placed next to Lafontaine and Palffy in the ATD.

I guess a guy like Charlie Simmer, who played with Dionne (who regularly finished in the top five in scoring in his era) should be playing with a centre no worse than Trottier. But, it's fine that he plays with Nieuwendyk.

on the flip side, I guess it would be perfectly fine to select any of the turds that played Hawerchuks wing in Winnipeg, and stick them with an ATD draft pick that matches Hawerchuks point finishes ... so, lets say Howie Morenz.

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Old
02-23-2013, 01:56 PM
  #754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Both were two-time second team all stars. But one of Harmon's AS spots was pretty weak.

In 1944-45, many top players were off to war, including Jack Stewart and Ken Reardon. Here is the AS voting from that season:

Butch Bouchard, Mtl 340.5 (15-10-1-0); Flash Hollett, Det 273 (1-12-5-7); Babe Pratt, Tor 93.5 (1-1-5-9); Glen Harmon, Mtl 60 (2-1-1-0); Frank Eddolls, Mtl 58.5 (1-0-2-1); Jack Crawford, Bos 57 (3-2-4-0); Earl Seibert, Chi 45 (0-1-6-2)

Basically Harmon squeaked in ahead of three other guys (two of whom received a higher number of votes in a funky weighted voting system) during a war-depleted season.

His 1948-49 AS season looks legit, as do both of Reise's.
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah but in this situation, where he beat out defensemen like Crawford and Seibert, does it really matter that it was a war depleted season?

Also, he has three other seasons of all-star votes, outside of the war years.
Jack Crawford managed to get injured for parts of the two war years, so his voting totals are lower in those years than the surrounding ones. Harmon basically beat Eddolls (who has no chance of being drafted), injured Crawford (40 of 50 games), and ancient and injured Seibert (25 of 50 games and a season away from retirment) in 1945 - not very impressive. He's still a solid pick now, but I don't think 1945 adds much.

My pick is coming in a few - deciding between two players.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:04 PM
  #755
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
Keven Stevens played with the 2nd best centre and, one of the top RW of all time but, he's fine skating alongside Joe Thornton and Joe Mullen in the ATD.
Stevens' peak and Jagr's peak do not coincide at all. Stevens' best years came before Jagr really did much of anything. In 90-91 and 93-94 when Lemieux played 26 and 22 games respectively, Stevens scored 40 goals in both years.

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02-23-2013, 02:17 PM
  #756
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Swamp Devils pick Ken Mosdell, C



-Four Stanley Cups (1946, 53, 56, 59)
-Top 10 in goals twice (7th in 53-54, 10th in 54-55)
-Top 20 in assists twice (16th in 53-54, 11th in 54-55)
-Top 10 in points twice (10th in 53-54, 8th in 54-55)
-First Team All-Star (at center) in 53-54
-Second Team All-Star (at center) in 54-55
-6'1" in the 1950s (unadjusted)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Pelletier
One of the NHL's top defensive specialists in the 1940s and 1950s was Montreal born Ken Mosdell.

Kenny Mosdell, a four time Stanley Cup champion with the Canadiens, saw big ice time as the Habs #1 shutdown guy. Mosdell would get the call every time the opposing team sent its No. 1 line into action. If it was Boston, he'd be out there against Milt Schmidt; if it was Detroit, he'd be checking Sid Abel of the Production Line, which had Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay as the wingers; if it was Toronto, No. 18 Mosdell would be all over the Leafs' Syl Apps.

And he'd be on every penalty kill, which back in those days did not end when the opposition scored a goal. On a two-minute penalty, the specialty team units were out there for the duration and the opposition could score as many times as possible before the penalty ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
When he did earn a regular role with the Canadiens, the wiry center became known for his penalty-killing and defensive work. "They only let me play offense twice when Elmer Lach was hurt," Mosdell said of his role with the team. His solid play helped anchor Montreal for another Stanley Cup victory in 1953.
He played in an era when checking line players rarely scored, but proved that he could score when allowed to think offense - two top 10 finishes in scoring while centering Bert Olmstead and Maurice Richard, then went back to being a checker and finishing out of the top 20.

In the modern game, third lines get more opportunity to play a two-way game than they did in the 1940s and 1950s, and I think Mosdell has the talent to chip in offensively (while playing excellent defense) if he's allowed to play a two-way game.

I have no idea when he said this, but my old profile for Mosdell (from my first ever ATD) has this quote from overpass:

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass
In 1954-55, the year he was a second team all-star, he was third in the league in even-strength points with 46, just 3 behind leader Richard and ahead of Art Ross winner Geoffrion. He can definitely play a defensive role or a scoring role as needed.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=703

I certainly don't expect that kind of production from Mosdell, since there is no indication he played much defense when placed on a scoring line. But I do think he has the talent to play a two-way game and chip in occasionally. He's definitely a really good checker.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:19 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
fair enough but, then why isn't this argument applied to other players as well?

Keven Stevens played with the 2nd best centre and, one of the top RW of all time but, he's fine skating alongside Joe Thornton and Joe Mullen in the ATD.

Esa Tikannen played with the best centre of all-time, and one of the top RW of his era but, no-one blinks when he's placed next to Lafontaine and Palffy in the ATD.

I guess a guy like Charlie Simmer, who played with Dionne (who regularly finished in the top five in scoring in his era) should be playing with a centre no worse than Trottier. But, it's fine that he plays with Nieuwendyk.
It is applied to everyone. Rene Robert just stands out as weak when compared to the above guys.

Quote:
on the flip side, I guess it would be perfectly fine to select any of the turds that played Hawerchuks wing in Winnipeg, and stick them with an ATD draft pick that matches Hawerchuks point finishes ... so, lets say Howie Morenz.
At least those turds would be playing with a relatively similar centre. Hawerchuk was one of the best in the NHL, and Morenz is one of the best in the ATD.

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:21 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Stevens' peak and Jagr's peak do not coincide at all. Stevens' best years came before Jagr really did much of anything. In 90-91 and 93-94 when Lemieux played 26 and 22 games respectively, Stevens scored 40 goals in both years.
Stevens really only had a four year peak... two of those years, his best, were with an Art Ross winning Lemieux. and his final two were with a Jagr that "only" scored 94 and 99 points

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Old
02-23-2013, 02:53 PM
  #759
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Agreed, thats where the ''vs2'' numbers and finishes or whatever else you use to rank these people doesn't tell the who story. Out of Hawerchuk, Perreault, Barry, and Thornton....Gilbert is the clear cut best player in my eyes.
I wonder why that is. I mean...did you actually see Perreault play? Did you see Hawerchuk? Ok, I won't ask about Barry. There is some kind of "legend" about Gilbert Perreault that I've never really understood, and not just in North America. The Soviets were also amazed by his up-ice rushes. The two players they always talked the most about were Lafleur and Perreault, though to be honest, I think this says more about Soviet stylistic prejudices than it does about Lafleur and Perreault. Interestingly, the Soviets also had unusual trouble defending both of these players, as well. Tikhonov liked to play a semi-trapping system (which I think he picked up from the Czechs after getting beaten by it twice), and were vulnerable to great stickhandlers who could attack the blueline with speed.

I saw Perreault play, and he was indisputably spectacular. He had moments when he was simply unstoppable. He could take the puck and weave his way through the entire opposing team. He was explosively fast, and you really couldn't give him room, or he would burn you. But he was also a limited player, and opponents did eventually "figure out" how to defend him.

He was much better when carrying the puck with speed, but was nothing more than an average cycler. He was one of those guys whose stickhandling worked at high speed, but he couldn't "stickhandle in a phonebooth" like some guys (Brad Park, for example) could. The French Connection line really were never very good on the cycle, in general. Perreault also had a crappy backhand, both in shooting and passing, and other teams figured this out, as well.

In case anyone is interested in actual evidence of what I'm saying, here is a very interesting article from 1978 about all that ailed the Sabres, as the era came rapidly to an end.

Bottom line: the numbers lie sometimes...but not often.

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:27 PM
  #760
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I don't necessarily expect anyone to know this, but I figure I'll ask. I know that after Tony Leswick was traded to Detroit, he formed an excellent penalty killing duo with Marty Pavelich. Anyone know who took faceoffs for the two of them?

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:28 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by papershoes View Post
fair enough but, then why isn't this argument applied to other players as well?

Keven Stevens played with the 2nd best centre and, one of the top RW of all time but, he's fine skating alongside Joe Thornton and Joe Mullen in the ATD.

Esa Tikannen played with the best centre of all-time, and one of the top RW of his era but, no-one blinks when he's placed next to Lafontaine and Palffy in the ATD.

I guess a guy like Charlie Simmer, who played with Dionne (who regularly finished in the top five in scoring in his era) should be playing with a centre no worse than Trottier. But, it's fine that he plays with Nieuwendyk.

on the flip side, I guess it would be perfectly fine to select any of the turds that played Hawerchuks wing in Winnipeg, and stick them with an ATD draft pick that matches Hawerchuks point finishes ... so, lets say Howie Morenz.
Right.. that line of thinking very quickly breaks down.

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Old
02-23-2013, 03:38 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Right.. that line of thinking very quickly breaks down.
I disagree. I don't think it breaks down, at all, and I think that any GM who is half awake must understand the effect that linemates have on an individual's production. What are we supposed to do...completely ignore it?

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02-23-2013, 04:36 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I disagree. I don't think it breaks down, at all, and I think that any GM who is half awake must understand the effect that linemates have on an individual's production. What are we supposed to do...completely ignore it?
No but people could be reasonable about it instead of making every player a 0/10 or a 10/10 with nothing in between.

Secondly the theory that teammates and linemates don't affect the production of upper level players gets thrown around here on hfboards with an alarming regularity. I don't personally agree with that but it is really tough to untangle how much.

At times players don't click at all and other times they are greater than the sum of their parts.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 02-23-2013 at 04:44 PM.
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Old
02-23-2013, 05:49 PM
  #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That's a pretty good pick. Dale Hunter has been an underrated two-way player for a long time in the ATD. A lot of GMs seem to treat him like he's a 4th liner, but he's really not. He's a legit 3rd line center, and a pretty good one. He's got a decent Selke record. This is what he got in years when he had at least two top-3 votes: 7, 7, 11, 13. He also had another three seasons in which he got token Selke votes, and even got a 3rd place Hart vote one year.

I get the impression that people who didn't see the Dale play don't realize what an insufferable ******* he was on the ice. He was terrible to play against. One of the dirtiest players I have ever seen, and extremely good at getting away with it: a pest par excellence.
Dale Hunter was a massive ******* and one of the dirtiest SOB's ever...but very effective. That being said, I take great pleasure in knowing he never won a Cup.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:02 PM
  #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That's a pretty good pick. Dale Hunter has been an underrated two-way player for a long time in the ATD. A lot of GMs seem to treat him like he's a 4th liner, but he's really not. He's a legit 3rd line center, and a pretty good one. He's got a decent Selke record. This is what he got in years when he had at least two top-3 votes: 7, 7, 11, 13. He also had another three seasons in which he got token Selke votes, and even got a 3rd place Hart vote one year.

I get the impression that people who didn't see the Dale play don't realize what an insufferable ******* he was on the ice. He was terrible to play against. One of the dirtiest players I have ever seen, and extremely good at getting away with it: a pest par excellence.
Yep, he's one of those players I'd gladly never have on my team or at least not unless I'm taking him close to 100 slots after he should be off the board. And that's saying something considering I had xxx last year. Hunter was an arrogant, flat out dirty, complete piece of ****. But that said, the guy could play. He's about as legit a 3rd liner as you can get here.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-23-2013 at 06:11 PM. Reason: undrafted
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02-23-2013, 06:05 PM
  #766
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Can somebody take a one name list?

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #767
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Quote:
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Yep, he's one of those players I'd gladly never have on my team or at least not unless I'm taking him close to 100 slots after he should be off the board. And that's saying something considering I had xxx last year. Hunter was an arrogant, flat out dirty, complete piece of ****. But that said, the guy could play. He's about as legit a 3rd liner as you can get here.
Watch it with the undrafteds...


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-23-2013 at 06:11 PM. Reason: undrafted
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02-23-2013, 06:06 PM
  #768
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't necessarily expect anyone to know this, but I figure I'll ask. I know that after Tony Leswick was traded to Detroit, he formed an excellent penalty killing duo with Marty Pavelich. Anyone know who took faceoffs for the two of them?
probably pavelich, b/c i have read that he was tried at C sometimes.

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02-23-2013, 06:11 PM
  #769
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Can somebody take a one name list?
send it here , i pick right after you

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02-23-2013, 06:12 PM
  #770
TheDevilMadeMe
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Can somebody take a one name list?
I can. Edit: Jafar is probably a better option if he's around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
probably pavelich, b/c i have read that he was tried at C sometimes.
Makes sense.

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02-23-2013, 06:21 PM
  #771
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papershoes on the clock until 10h17 p.m.

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Old
02-23-2013, 06:21 PM
  #772
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Kenora picks Ted Harris D

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02-23-2013, 06:41 PM
  #773
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HC Donbass selects Bruce Stuart, F

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02-23-2013, 06:49 PM
  #774
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Montreal select Shane Doan , W



Doan will bring a good physical presence + some offense to my 2nd line and be paired with his old partner Jeremy Roenick.

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02-23-2013, 06:53 PM
  #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't necessarily expect anyone to know this, but I figure I'll ask. I know that after Tony Leswick was traded to Detroit, he formed an excellent penalty killing duo with Marty Pavelich. Anyone know who took faceoffs for the two of them?
Possibly Kelly?

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