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Shake-up?

View Poll Results: oh
fire the coach 29 22.31%
make a trade 33 25.38%
both 52 40.00%
neither? 16 12.31%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-16-2013, 04:42 PM
  #126
Rickety Cricket
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One think that has irked me about the Sharks is that they copy other teams and try to change it up almost every year.

I'd like the Sharks to commit to a style of play and give it time. You also need to have this style implemented at all levels of your org (Worcester, drafting).

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02-16-2013, 05:09 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Rickety Cricket View Post
One think that has irked me about the Sharks is that they copy other teams and try to change it up almost every year.

I'd like the Sharks to commit to a style of play and give it time. You also need to have this style implemented at all levels of your org (Worcester, drafting).
If you want that, you're going to have to start by canning the GM and finding someone that aligns with your philosophy of choice. I'll leave it to you to figure out who that may be. It's tough to get a read on GM's and their philosophies especially if they don't have any experience at this level.

I'd basically be for anyone that is willing to completely overhaul the scouting and developing. I'd definitely be willing to sacrifice the lucky pull of a Joe Pavelski if it means a new person can manage a generational superstar draft pick. Drafting and development needs to be a little more valuable in this organization because free agents just aren't going to sign here and trades can only be done so many times before the well dries up.

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02-16-2013, 05:17 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
If you want that, you're going to have to start by canning the GM and finding someone that aligns with your philosophy of choice. I'll leave it to you to figure out who that may be. It's tough to get a read on GM's and their philosophies especially if they don't have any experience at this level.

I'd basically be for anyone that is willing to completely overhaul the scouting and developing. I'd definitely be willing to sacrifice the lucky pull of a Joe Pavelski if it means a new person can manage a generational superstar draft pick. Drafting and development needs to be a little more valuable in this organization because free agents just aren't going to sign here and trades can only be done so many times before the well dries up.
I agree.

Me personally, I'd like to see the drafting and development look for guys who have high hockey IQ and speed as opposed to size. Size is nice, but I'd value guys with high hockey IQ more.

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02-16-2013, 05:24 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Mafoofoo View Post
Am I the only one who doesn't want a rebuild? Rebuilding by no means means this team will be a powerhouse again like Pittsburgh/Chicago etc. There's an equal chance we end up with the Islanders or Blue Jackets. I have a pretty good feeling that the same people screaming to trade Patty and Jumbo would be the same people screaming "how come this team sucks!!" when they're rebuilding forever.
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You're absolutely right.
I agree as well. You also missed the Leafs in there, whom have been just like the islanders....through rebuild after rebuild after rebuild through having one of the youngest teams in hockey with very little hockey skills etc etc.

All we need is a re-tooling...ridding of the deadweights (Clowe, Handzus, Burish, Galiardi, Murray) as; that is quite a few and, truly what is bringing this team down as a whole. And for goodness sakes, if Todd can see the wasting of the likes of Havlat and Gomez alongside Burish and Galiardi. Especially Havlat. That 4th line role could and SHOULD easily be given to Clowe as, what has the coaching seen Clowe do more so than Havlat and Gomez (whos been unjustifiably pretty much stuck on that terrible 4th line most of the time?). The downfall of Clowes game is now into 2 years running. At this pace, his value will become a 6th or 7th round pick in any deal.

Add to this, the likes of Irwin did not deserve a demotion.

With Todd as coach though, I cant see any of those aforementioned moved. Galiardi and Burish will be staying simply as a 'save face' via that awful McGinn deal (Burish as the replacement for Winnik). It just all smells as awful.

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02-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #130
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replace todd with dallas eakins

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02-16-2013, 05:34 PM
  #131
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The islanders are terribly run.. the Jackets were terribly run franchise. The Sharks are not. They may make bad choices but they spend money and have been in the playoffs for years.. yes partially by the Thornton trade but badly run teams don't even make that trade.

A total rebuild is not the end of the world when you have money to spend. Worst comes to worst they get a few high picks to build around and use as assets in trades.. (kinda like the oilers should be doing when some of their young players get to the end of their rookie contracts.)

Anyway, I don't the Sharks are gonna do a total rebuild because to do so, they would have to get rid of Marleau and Thornton and that's not happening.

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02-16-2013, 05:36 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
I agree as well. You also missed the Leafs in there, whom have been just like the islanders....through rebuild after rebuild after rebuild through having one of the youngest teams in hockey with very little hockey skills etc etc.

All we need is a re-tooling...ridding of the deadweights (Clowe, Handzus, Burish, Galiardi, Murray) as; that is quite a few and, truly what is bringing this team down as a whole. And for goodness sakes, if Todd can see the wasting of the likes of Havlat and Gomez alongside Burish and Galiardi. Especially Havlat. That 4th line role could and SHOULD easily be given to Clowe as, what has the coaching seen Clowe do more so than Havlat and Gomez (whos been unjustifiably pretty much stuck on that terrible 4th line most of the time?). The downfall of Clowes game is now into 2 years running. At this pace, his value will become a 6th or 7th round pick in any deal.

Add to this, the likes of Irwin did not deserve a demotion.

With Todd as coach though, I cant see any of those aforementioned moved. Galiardi and Burish will be staying simply as a 'save face' via that awful McGinn deal (Burish as the replacement for Winnik). It just all smells as awful.
I think Iriwin did have a bad game or two right before he was sent down. However, I don't think it was his play that sent him down as much as he was the only player that could be sent down without having to clear waivers.

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Old
02-16-2013, 05:43 PM
  #133
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marleau just needs to man up and not feel guilty about getting all the goals. i remember him saying "i dont want to be greedy" when asked about his goal streak. He deserves a spot on the roster, but honestly, trading one of our top dogs to bring back some depth we gave up for burns could help out next season where its a full 82 games.

Either way, we got larry robinson and brad stuart back there helping out including Adam Burish with his positive hardworking attitude. Maybe he can rub some of that back onto Clowe. Also Scott Gomez could be the dark knight that steps up in the playoffs.

Out of the last 6 years i have the most optimism for them to really work at it this time. And win the cup our way, and not someone elses.

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02-16-2013, 05:55 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by justinboo View Post
marleau just needs to man up and not feel guilty about getting all the goals. i remember him saying "i dont want to be greedy" when asked about his goal streak. He deserves a spot on the roster, but honestly, trading one of our top dogs to bring back some depth we gave up for burns could help out next season where its a full 82 games.

Either way, we got larry robinson and brad stuart back there helping out including Adam Burish with his positive hardworking attitude. Maybe he can rub some of that back onto Clowe. Also Scott Gomez could be the dark knight that steps up in the playoffs.

Out of the last 6 years i have the most optimism for them to really work at it this time. And win the cup our way, and not someone elses.
Bag on Marleau again when he is one of three of the top 6 who are doing what they are supposed to do. Then you come up with Burish who can't put the puck in the ocean and only goes to the net when he feels like it. And Gomez is throwing passes to the opposition when he is in the ozone or dribbling it into the crease when no Sharks are there. Then Robinson again. The team is blowing the breakouts and most of the time it is the dmen. And you say Robinson is the answer?

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02-16-2013, 05:56 PM
  #135
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i think losing with all the new players is a healthy thing for how awesome our team can be.

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02-16-2013, 06:06 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by WantonAbandon View Post
Doesn't make a lick of sense? The defense can't move the puck. Haven't you ever heard offense starts with defense? Watch the Sharks struggle to get the puck out cleanly out of their own zone. Watch Burns and Braun, if they aren't allowed to skate the puck out odds are they will either turn the puck over, pass to a forward with no options, ice it, rim it around the boards (which often leads to a turnover), or the old dump and chase routine. Murray... just forget about it. Demers looks like a shadow of his former self, Stuart isn't all that great at it either. The best Blueliner (Beside Boyle) at moving the puck out of their zone is Vlasic and it isn't even close... Even Vlasic is only pretty good at the slot pass. Part of the problem is so far the Sharks have changed how they match their blue line. So Boyle plays against far weaker comp now.

So yes their GAA is low, but the way the blue line has been playing they can't really get anything going. This offense is what dump and chase looks like. Horrible.
As someone else pointed out, the lack of transition game and quick breakouts is more about strategy than personnel. It isn't because no one on D can pass it's the passive breakout strategy. Too much standing at the boards instead of circling forwards hitting the breakout with speed. Vlassic and Murray are the only crappy passers on D IMO. Stuart, Demers, Boyle, Burns, Braun and even Irwin are all good enough passers to be part of an above average transition game IMO. Frankly Stuart has been great at it over in Detroit so he didn't just suddenly forget since last season. It's the strategy...

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02-16-2013, 06:11 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
And Gomez is throwing passes to the opposition when he is in the ozone or dribbling it into the crease when no Sharks are there.
Thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing that. For a guy who's supposed to be a playmaker, all he's been doing this season is blind passes in the offensive zone, or chucking the puck cross-crease when there are already 5+ guys there.

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Maybe MAYBE Burns although I think the Wild were right about him....
You realize that the Burns and Vlasic pair was the best pair in the first half of the regular season last year, and that Burns was our best defenseman in the post-season right?
He just came back from a major injury and hasn't played for almost a year. Cut him some slack.

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02-16-2013, 06:12 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Bag on Marleau again when he is one of three of the top 6 who are doing what they are supposed to do. Then you come up with Burish who can't put the puck in the ocean and only goes to the net when he feels like it. And Gomez is throwing passes to the opposition when he is in the ozone or dribbling it into the crease when no Sharks are there. Then Robinson again. The team is blowing the breakouts and most of the time it is the dmen. And you say Robinson is the answer?
True and agree. I hope D.W. doesn't make the really ridiculous play and attempt to move either Jumbo or Patty. But with Gomez, I think much of that is not 'mixing' well with the likes of whom he has been playing with 90%+ so far and, the likes of Burish and Galiardi unable to be ready or understand how to 'respond' to those passes or the knowledge of going to the net in expectence of a type play coming, etc. With Gomez, I would like to first see him play a few games alongside some more offensive minded players on a steady basis before we really pass him aside.


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Old
02-16-2013, 06:17 PM
  #139
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Let's blame Marleau . . . again. I hope they actually do trade him so the problems get worse and then I will be back with a vengeance with the "I told you so's". I don't care for Boyle and am not in love with JT. But I am fully aware of what their absence would mean in the immediate future.

I keep getting the sense that many in the "I hate/don't like Marleau" camp are into the same trite old phrases that I outlined above. What is interesting in this recent stretch is that he is one of the few that has been doing exactly what the conservative camp wants. Fronting the goalie, battling well on the boards, and saving quite a few errant passes by preparing for the inaccuracies that come from the passer. But he keeps an even keel which grinds some of you. A team will wear out quickly if they fall apart over every bad game and take out on those around them. The Sharks consider themselves lucky to have him because he does get "it".
For myself I was not hating on Marleau. On the contrary, I think he's an asset that can be moved for enough pieces to limit just how long a mini rebuild takes. I suggested moving all the fan favorites. I'd be fine if you move Marleau back to #1 center and have him match up against the other teams top line and ship thornton out instead.

We don't need two guys making $7mil that don't produce consistent offensive results though.

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02-16-2013, 06:17 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
True and agree. I hope D.W. doesn't make the really ridiculous play and attempt to move either Jumbo or Patty. But with Gomez, I think much of that is not 'mixing' well with the likes of whom he has been playing with 90%+ so far and, the likes of Burish and Galiardi unable to be ready or understand how to 'respond' to those passes or the knowledge of going to the net in expectence of a type play coming, etc. With Gomez, I would like to see him play a few games alongside some more offensive minded players before we really pass him aside.
Havlat looked alright despite playing with Galiardi and Burish, and Gomez has been doing the same things SJeasy was talking about on the PP, so you can't put all the blame on his linemates.
Don't get me wrong though, Gomez isn't the reason the Sharks are losing and he's doing an alright job for what he's getting paid. He just hasn't been good considering all the hype/praise some of the people here were giving him after the signing.

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02-16-2013, 06:18 PM
  #141
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What would it take to convince you? More losses?
Show me a direct correlation between "bad" coaching and losses. The coaches are working with what they were given. These losses are on the players. They are playing unmotivated and lethargic. They are professional athletes and they should be able to find a way on their own to get motivated for every game.

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02-16-2013, 06:23 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by NWShark View Post
We don't need two guys making $7mil that don't produce consistent offensive results though.
Yet they still manage to outscore every other forward on the team year in and year out. Hmmm...


For all this talk of how Thornton and Marleau suck and don't produce consistently enough I don't see Couture or Pavelski lighting the world on fire or scoring at a more consistent rate. Trading either of the big two is basically giving up on this season and possibly the next couple. Sorry but I don't see a team lead by Couture and Pavs going anywhere unless you have like 10 top 6 forwards.

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02-16-2013, 06:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Havlat looked alright despite playing with Galiardi and Burish, and Gomez has been doing the same things SJeasy was talking about on the PP, so you can't put all the blame on his linemates.
Don't get me wrong though, Gomez isn't the reason the Sharks are losing and he's doing an alright job for what he's getting paid. He just hasn't been good considering all the hype/praise some of the people here were giving him after the signing.
Agree. But With Havlat though (I for one really like the player) is much, much more a player than Gomez. Not a fair comparison as can expect much more from Havlat than Gomez in any role.

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02-16-2013, 06:27 PM
  #144
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For myself I was not hating on Marleau. On the contrary, I think he's an asset that can be moved for enough pieces to limit just how long a mini rebuild takes. I suggested moving all the fan favorites. I'd be fine if you move Marleau back to #1 center and have him match up against the other teams top line and ship thornton out instead.

We don't need two guys making $7mil that don't produce consistent offensive results though.
If they are going to rebuild, I don't want any mini rebuilds. The team's game is geared to JT. The chance of finding a similar player is slim and none and slim left town. The way to do it is move JT and speed up the team. It is only because of JT that they have enjoyed success with a "slow" game. If they want to keep JT they need to reduce his role to that of PP specialist and get some speedy players for 5on5. His 5on5 game is going to fall as he slows even more. Teaching a new crop the "slow" game is the last thing that the Sharks need. They need to teach players that moving their feet is not a luxury, it is a necessity if they want to remain in the lineup. It is going to take a long time to acquire the players necessary to speed the Sharks game. It won't happen overnight.

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02-16-2013, 06:28 PM
  #145
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Part of the success is that when the puck goes to the sideboards they set up a picket fence and it is very low. Almost no cross-ice passes against. They also collapse the weakside forward in a big way so a cross ice at the blueline can be very dangerous.

My issue is that the whole team philosophy is geared to defense. A bottom feeder strategy. You win by outscoring the opponent not just by preventing goals. If goals against prevention is preventing your own team from scoring, it is going nowhere. A team can make the playoffs that way, but they won't win it all (not anymore).
This is what I have been screaming from the rooftops whenever I can, this team has gone waaaaay too defensive, and now they cannot score goals. The team was flying the eff around earlier this year and has just gotten tighter and tighter as the weeks have passed to where now they cant barely make a pass without pissing their pants that they might make a turnover.

Everyone gets really mad a thornton and clowe for turnovers, but which clowe and thornton were better, the turnover machines of the past who scored crap tons of points, or the "looking for the right time" passers they seem to have become. Clowe obviously has other issues as well, but damn thornton was between the legs passing and all other kinds of crap earlier in the year, have not seen any of those recently. He has reverted to his, sit along the wall, with noone around him because he wont shoot, and then just dump it down low or to the point when someone finally forces him to pass.

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The problem is it wasn't a bottom feeder strategy last year. The Sharks are just doing what everyone else is doing...
Easy already pointed it out, but the strategy you think he was talking about is definitly not what was the winning strat last year. LA, STL etc were very tight checking teams that were RELENTLESS on the forecheck, it came across as defensive because they did such a good job of giving no time and space to other teams, but it was not defensive. It was almost hyper offensive but the offense was from turnovers and not puck possesion.

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02-16-2013, 06:30 PM
  #146
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Yet they still manage to outscore every other forward on the team year in and year out. Hmmm...


For all this talk of how Thornton and Marleau suck and don't produce consistently enough I don't see Couture or Pavelski lighting the world on fire or scoring at a more consistent rate. Trading either of the big two is basically giving up on this season and possibly the next couple. Sorry but I don't see a team lead by Couture and Pavs going anywhere unless you have like 10 top 6 forwards.
It's about depth not top end talent. Also about maybe not having the right top end talent...

And don't try and put words in my mouth, at no point did I say either suck. This team isn't taking advantage of what either can potentially accomplish IMO. That part is mostly coaching. I sure hope it's not the individual players motivation.


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02-16-2013, 06:34 PM
  #147
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I attended the game last night and also just watched the replay. From this I have the following observations, many of which are not new:

1. Lack of team speed is killing this team and prevents us from competing with the likes of the Hawks. When 6 of our regular forwards(Clowe, Handzus, Pavs, Cooch, Havlat, Thornton because he plays a very slow game (50%)) are at average or below average speed, it makes it very difficult to compete with the norm of todays NHL.
2. We constantly hold the puck too long and continue to miss seam passes which are open. This prevents us from getting opportunities from the rush.
3. Our defense was not good. Boyle made many, many bad passes, Murray is...Murray, Burns obviously has not regained his agility, etc.
4. Thornton, having rotated out to the defensive wing position, had an opportunity to attempt to block Hjalmerson's shot from the point which resulted in their 4th goal, but instead backed off and let the shot go through. Very bad play, in my opinion.
5. Chicago plays a very north/south game which results in many odd man oppys and chances on the rush. We tend to play a very east/west and south(playing the puck backward) game which prevents anything to develop on the rush.
6. Clowe reminds me of the "little engine that could", but he can't.
7. Though a few bright spots were Burish and Wingels, who did a few nice things during the game.
8. It was nice to see a dozen or so SJS jerseys in the stands.
9. Turnovers, turnovers, etc. Passes missed, passes not to anyone, etc.

Just a few observations.

We are no where close to being capable of competing with the top teams in the league.

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02-16-2013, 06:37 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by MrCowGod15 View Post
Show me a direct correlation between "bad" coaching and losses. The coaches are working with what they were given. These losses are on the players. They are playing unmotivated and lethargic. They are professional athletes and they should be able to find a way on their own to get motivated for every game.
Im sorry if you are talking about just this year, or if you meant the question in a general sense, if my argument is not what you were asking then disregard.

Having said that STL vs SJS last year is as far back as you need to look to find how bad coaching directly corrolates to losses. You cannot lose 8 times to the same team without your coach being completely incapable of devising a new strategy against an opponent that shuts your first strat down. Its not only the blues, we all know at this point that any team that plays the sharks with high speed and super aggressive forechecking (ana this year) will destroy the sharks. This has been happening for a while now, its one thing to blame the players, however with the players we do have Im possitive there is a way to get better results against those types of teams.

Too bad we have a coach that relies on line changes and not strategic changes to try and get things going against teams we cant beat, or when the team is in a funk.

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02-16-2013, 06:37 PM
  #149
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If they are going to rebuild, I don't want any mini rebuilds. The team's game is geared to JT. The chance of finding a similar player is slim and none and slim left town. The way to do it is move JT and speed up the team. It is only because of JT that they have enjoyed success with a "slow" game. If they want to keep JT they need to reduce his role to that of PP specialist and get some speedy players for 5on5. His 5on5 game is going to fall as he slows even more. Teaching a new crop the "slow" game is the last thing that the Sharks need. They need to teach players that moving their feet is not a luxury, it is a necessity if they want to remain in the lineup. It is going to take a long time to acquire the players necessary to speed the Sharks game. It won't happen overnight.
I don't believe it's as difficult as that. Trade Thorton and have the team adopt the faster strategy. It'll be rough this year but by next year they could potentially be a top team again. This assumes we get the right pieces back in the Thorton trade. Yea it's a gamble but its better than just not quite being good enough every year. TIme to make pavs or Boyle captain and either get a coach who wants a more agressive style or if tmac is the guy I'm fine with that too. I'm not 100% sold that it's all him.

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02-16-2013, 06:43 PM
  #150
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I think trading Thornton would give us the best return. Marleau is a really important to the Sharks but I dont think the rest of the league considers him as 'elite' as Thornton.

Also, I am not sure if either Thornton or Marleau would waive their NTC/NMC.

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