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Mrazek starts @ Minnesota Sunday Nyquist sent down

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:49 PM
  #76
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At this moment, it appears that Tatar is more capable of playing on any line and being effective. While Nyquist at this time is only gonna be effective in a top 6 role playing with an elite player that will create space for him.

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02-16-2013, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Can't think of any other teams that would have someone top 10 in scoring in the AHL their first 2 years, and wouldn't have them on their NHL roster by now either.
Gustav Nyquist has not been in the top 10 in scoring in the AHL for 2 years in a row. He's top 10 now, but it's no the case last year.

But look at Nazem Kadri and Kyle Palmiere. They've spent parts of 3 seasons in the AHL, and they're big contributors now. Most prospects spend at least parts of 2 years, or some similar interval in the minors in the AHL. It's too easy to say that "I can't think of" when you don't bother to even look.

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02-16-2013, 08:28 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Gustav Nyquist has not been in the top 10 in scoring in the AHL for 2 years in a row. He's top 10 now, but it's no the case last year.

But look at Nazem Kadri and Kyle Palmiere. They've spent parts of 3 seasons in the AHL, and they're big contributors now. Most prospects spend at least parts of 2 years, or some similar interval in the minors in the AHL. It's too easy to say that "I can't think of" when you don't bother to even look.
He was top 10 at the point when he was called up last year, and had he finished out his season in the AHL rest assured he would have been top 10 in the league 2 years running.


Kardi being delayed so long was due partly to management questioning his work ethic and conditioning.

OH so the Ducks are playing great this year and getting big contributions from their young players? Thanks for proving my point for me Jman.

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02-16-2013, 08:37 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
He was top 10 at the point when he was called up last year, and had he finished out his season in the AHL rest assured he would have been top 10 in the league 2 years running.


Kardi being delayed so long was due partly to management questioning his work ethic and conditioning.

OH so the Ducks are playing great this year and getting big contributions from their young players? Thanks for proving my point for me Jman.
I'm not sure why you're trying to get me to chase a red herring. The whole point of this argument is that you don't get why people don't play their young guys that are good. Point is, the Wings saw Nyquist was good and gave him a shot last year to play. Moot point he could have been top 10, cause he was playing with the big boys. He's been getting chances. Kadri's been a young and highly regarded prospect and got a lot of time in the AHL. Palmieri and other Ducks prospects have had the same or similar path Nyquist is taking. These are just some examples I brought up. Whether or not the team is doing well with them is irrelevant.

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02-16-2013, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
He was top 10 at the point when he was called up last year, and had he finished out his season in the AHL rest assured he would have been top 10 in the league 2 years running.


Kardi being delayed so long was due partly to management questioning his work ethic and conditioning.

OH so the Ducks are playing great this year and getting big contributions from their young players? Thanks for proving my point for me Jman.
hmm ok so now its WHEN he was called up + shoulda woulda coulda

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02-16-2013, 08:46 PM
  #81
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hmm ok so now its WHEN he was called up + shoulda woulda coulda
Did you have a point? K, didn't think so.

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02-16-2013, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polymath View Post
hmm ok so now its WHEN he was called up + shoulda woulda coulda
shoulda woulda coulda? he was 6 points off 10th and only played 56 games....

Quote:
Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Gustav Nyquist has not been in the top 10 in scoring in the AHL for 2 years in a row. He's top 10 now, but it's no the case last year.

But look at Nazem Kadri and Kyle Palmiere. They've spent parts of 3 seasons in the AHL, and they're big contributors now. Most prospects spend at least parts of 2 years, or some similar interval in the minors in the AHL. It's too easy to say that "I can't think of" when you don't bother to even look.
Kadri and Palmieri went to the AHL one year after being drafted though

Nyquist spent 3 years at College

both Kadri and Palmieri are actually younger than Nyquist

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02-16-2013, 08:52 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I'm not sure why you're trying to get me to chase a red herring. The whole point of this argument is that you don't get why people don't play their young guys that are good. Point is, the Wings saw Nyquist was good and gave him a shot last year to play. Moot point he could have been top 10, cause he was playing with the big boys. He's been getting chances. Kadri's been a young and highly regarded prospect and got a lot of time in the AHL. Palmieri and other Ducks prospects have had the same or similar path Nyquist is taking. These are just some examples I brought up. Whether or not the team is doing well with them is irrelevant.
On the flip side a lot of times productive players take a much shorter trip to the NHL. Stepan went right from college hockey to the pros. Cory Conacher went undrafted and it took him less AHL games than Nyquist to become an NHL regular. We take longer to get players up to the NHL than the rest of the league. That's common knowledge among NHL fans.

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02-16-2013, 09:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
We take longer to get players up to the NHL than the rest of the league. That's common knowledge among NHL fans.
I think this will change over the next few years. Especially if Datsyuk leaves. The team simply doesn't have the horses it once did keeping the young guys out. And free agency has been mostly a bust, so combine those two factors and you're going to see more kids slipping into the lineup on a regular basis out of sheer necessity.

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02-16-2013, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
shoulda woulda coulda? he was 6 points off 10th and only played 56 games....



Kadri and Palmieri went to the AHL one year after being drafted though

Nyquist spent 3 years at College

both Kadri and Palmieri are actually younger than Nyquist
They are one year younger. Not much of a difference. It doesn't matter when they went to the AHL. The whole point is how much they've spent in the AHL. About the same time.

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02-16-2013, 09:11 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Can't think of any other teams that would have someone top 10 in scoring in the AHL their first 2 years, and wouldn't have them on their NHL roster by now either.
Nyquist wasn't top 10 in scoring last year, he was 27th and there are lots of players that tear apart the AHL, only to find they can't duplicate their success in the NHL.

Kadri was mentioned up thread, although he's off to a good start this year in his 3rd attempt at sticking in the NHL.

Chris Bourque destroyed the AHL with 2 different teams but couldn't stick at the NHL level in either place either.

So many people talk like playing in the AHL is a death sentence to a player's development, but in reality nobody has a fool proof way of developing talent in professional hockey players. Every player is different and they respond differently to changes in their level of opposition.

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02-16-2013, 09:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Nyquist wasn't top 10 in scoring last year, he was 27th and there are lots of players that tear apart the AHL, only to find they can't duplicate their success in the NHL.
We don't have to go too far away to see a great example of this. Case in point... CHRIS CONNER who scored 53 points in 57 games for Grand Rapids last year.

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02-16-2013, 09:17 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
On the flip side a lot of times productive players take a much shorter trip to the NHL. Stepan went right from college hockey to the pros. Cory Conacher went undrafted and it took him less AHL games than Nyquist to become an NHL regular. We take longer to get players up to the NHL than the rest of the league. That's common knowledge among NHL fans.
Different organizations have different developmental philosophies. You could also argue Kreider jumping from College to the NHL has hut him, considering his poor play.most see their first games sometime between 20-23, and that has been the case of the Wings as well.

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02-16-2013, 09:17 PM
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I don'thave a problem putting Nyquist back down, he looked weak as a kitten and didn't have a clue what to do out there. To be fair it was only one game and its not like he had much (if any) practice time. But clearly he's been passed by Tatar and for the size need Anderson. I'd like to see him get a couple more games and I think eventually he will and we'll get a better evaluation on him. But so far the Wings look like they know what they got in GR and have them ranked properly.

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02-16-2013, 09:18 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Nyquist wasn't top 10 in scoring last year, he was 27th and there are lots of players that tear apart the AHL, only to find they can't duplicate their success in the NHL.

Kadri was mentioned up thread, although he's off to a good start this year in his 3rd attempt at sticking in the NHL.

Chris Bourque destroyed the AHL with 2 different teams but couldn't stick at the NHL level in either place either.

So many people talk like playing in the AHL is a death sentence to a player's development, but in reality nobody has a fool proof way of developing talent in professional hockey players. Every player is different and they respond differently to changes in their level of opposition.
There's definitely no such thing as a sure thing, and sometimes there are good AHL players who can't make it in the NHL. It's way too early to know either way right now. My opinion is that what he has done to date has earned him a shot to play so we can find out. Unfortunately that won't happen for at least another season though. Even then it's not a guarantee with the contracts we have on the books

To be fair a lot of why Chris Bourque couldn't stick in the NHL is because he's like 5'7, not really an issue with Nyquist.

Nyquist was top 10 in scoring his first year at the time he was called up to DRW, and is top 10 again this year. Should have said that in my original post.

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02-16-2013, 09:19 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
They are one year younger. Not much of a difference. It doesn't matter when they went to the AHL. The whole point is how much they've spent in the AHL. About the same time.
of course it matters when they went the the AHL

Nyquist had WAY more development time than them before going to the AHL

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02-16-2013, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Gustav Nyquist has not been in the top 10 in scoring in the AHL for 2 years in a row. He's top 10 now, but it's no the case last year.

But look at Nazem Kadri and Kyle Palmiere. They've spent parts of 3 seasons in the AHL, and they're big contributors now. Most prospects spend at least parts of 2 years, or some similar interval in the minors in the AHL. It's too easy to say that "I can't think of" when you don't bother to even look.
LOL
Kadri is 22. Palmeiri turned 22 a couple weeks ago.
Nyquist will probably be 24 by the time he gets a fulltime NHL job.

24 is a late start for a rookie forward who has been near the top of our prospect lists for 3 years now.

Like I said 3-4 years ago, Nyquist never should have gone back to college for that last year.

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02-16-2013, 09:28 PM
  #93
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Nyquist wasn't top 10 in scoring last year, he was 27th and there are lots of players that tear apart the AHL, only to find they can't duplicate their success in the NHL.
Okay? The point is, if you're proving yourself in the AHL, unless the NHL team is stacked with all-stars, you should be getting a shot at proving yourself in the NHL. If they give you some consistent ice time with a real chance to gel with linemates, get adjusted to the better competition, and you still can't deliver? Then fine, you're a bust.

But until he gets that chance, how the hell do we know?

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02-16-2013, 09:28 PM
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LOL
Kadri is 22. Palmeiri turned 22 a couple weeks ago.
Nyquist will probably be 24 by the time he gets a fulltime NHL job.

24 is a late start for a rookie forward who has been near the top of our prospect lists for 3 years now.

Like I said 3-4 years ago, Nyquist never should have gone back to college for that last year.
You could be right, but it's important in these discussions to keep in mind those two guys were also first round picks. One was top 10. So their development is expected to be faster than a 4th round guy taken around 120.

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02-16-2013, 09:30 PM
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of course it matters when they went the the AHL

Nyquist had WAY more development time than them before going to the AHL
The whole point of this argument is that the AHL is some kind of death sentence for development. I'm pointing out how there are players who spend similar time in the AHL as Nyquist. However many years they spent in college beforehand is irrelevant. When you're playing College hockey, my guess is that you're also looking at some sort of academic career. Most kids drafted are drafted out of the CHL.

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02-16-2013, 09:32 PM
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When you're playing College hockey, my guess is that you're also looking at some sort of academic career.
You'd guess wrong. Lots of "liberal arts" and generic "business" majors in college hockey.

A few actually get a degree worth a damn, but the good players are there to keep playing hockey at some professional level.

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02-16-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
The whole point of this argument is that the AHL is some kind of death sentence for development. I'm pointing out how there are players who spend similar time in the AHL as Nyquist. However many years they spent in college beforehand is irrelevant. When you're playing College hockey, my guess is that you're also looking at some sort of academic career. Most kids drafted are drafted out of the CHL.
In Nyquist's case it could be hockey related. He needed (and still does need) more time to put on weight. The other would be to play on North American ice. It mades sense for him.

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02-16-2013, 09:40 PM
  #98
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I'm beginning to dislike Dan Cleary as passionately as I disliked 40+ year old Chris Chelios.

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02-16-2013, 09:45 PM
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You could be right, but it's important in these discussions to keep in mind those two guys were also first round picks. One was top 10. So their development is expected to be faster than a 4th round guy taken around 120.
Sure. but Nyquist's offensive ability didn't just recently become apparent to us.

He should have come to the Wings after his sophomore year of college.

2010-11 should have been his AHL year -
2011-12 in the NHL or maybe half and half.
And 2012-13 For sure in the NHL.

If he finishes the year with 25-30 games under his belt and then has to win a job next year as a 24-year-old... that's pretty old -- especially for a guy who many think is our best, second best or third best prospect.

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02-16-2013, 09:50 PM
  #100
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Sure. but Nyquist's offensive ability didn't just recently become apparent to us.

He should have come to the Wings after his sophomore year of college.

2010-11 should have been his AHL year -
2011-12 in the NHL or maybe half and half.
And 2012-13 For sure in the NHL.

If he finishes the year with 25-30 games under his belt and then has to win a job next year as a 24-year-old... that's pretty old -- especially for a guy who many think is our best, second best or third best prospect.
you can put him into the AHL sooner if you want but that would have been less time in the gym and he would be weaker than he already is.

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