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HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - TheDevilMadeMe

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02-16-2013, 04:18 PM
  #1
seventieslord
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HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - TheDevilMadeMe

Round 1 List:

# Name
1 Patrick Roy
2 Jacques Plante
3 Dominik Hasek
4 Martin Brodeur
5 Glenn Hall
6 Terry Sawchuk
7 Ken Dryden
8 Frank Brimsek
9 Georges Vezina
10 Jiri Holecek
11 Vladislav Tretiak
12 Bill Durnan
13 Charlie Gardiner
14 Turk Broda
15 Bernie Parent
16 Ed Belfour
17 Tony Esposito
18 Hugh Lehman
19 Clint Benedict
20 Roy Worters
21 Tiny Thompson
22 George Hainsworth
23 Johnny Bower
24 Billy Smith
25 Grant Fuhr
26 Alec Connell
27 Harry Lumley
28 Tom Barrasso
29 Gump Worsley
30 Henrik Lundqvist
31 Hap Holmes
32 Chuck Rayner
33 Rogie Vachon
34 Ed Giacomin
35 Roberto Luongo
36 John Vanbiesbrouck
37 Curtis Joseph
38 Pekka Lindmark
39 Paddy Moran
40 Percy LeSueur
41 Vladimir Dzurilla
42 Miikka Kiprusoff
43 John Ross Roach
44 Jiri Kralik
45 Seth Martin
46 Mike Liut
47 Olaf Kolzig
48 Tim Thomas
49 Al Rollins
50 Evgeni Nabokov
51 Charlie Hodge
52 Ron Hextall
53 Mike Richter
54 Mike Vernon
55 Gerry Cheevers
56 Chico Resch
57 Lorne Chabot
58 Dave Kerr
59 Riley Hern
60 Andy Moog

Players on the top-40 not ranked:

None

Exchange Lindmark and Moran for Thomas and Liut, his top-40 is the same as the final list

Players on the top-40 ranked below #50:

None

Players exclusive to this list and no more than two others:

none

Players ranked highest on this list:

Jiri Holecek (10)
Pekka Lindmark (38)

Players ranked lowest on this list:

Johnny Bower (23)
Gerry Cheevers (55)
Lorne Chabot (57)
Dave Kerr (58)

Cheevers and Chabot missed a combined three lists.

Round 2 voting record:

Round1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th
1RoyPlanteHasekBrodeurHallSawchukDryden 
2BrodeurSawchukTretiakDrydenBrimsekParentBrodaBenedict
3VezinaBrimsekGardinerBenedictBrodaParentBelfourDurnan
4BrodaHolecekBelfourWortersDurnanParentEspositoBower
5HolecekParentWortersLehmanBowerFuhrThompsonHainsworth
6LehmanThompsonFuhrHainsworthSmithHolmesWorsleyLumley
7FuhrRaynerBarrassoHolmesWorsleyConnellLumleyJoseph
8BarrassoLeSueurHolmesJosephVanbiesbrouckLuongoConnellVachon
9LundqvistLeSueurVanbiesbrouckLuongoConnellVachonKiprusoffLiut
10LundqvistLiutThomasConnellKerrKiprusoffRollinsRoach

Participation Record:

RoundRankPosts
1 2 89
2 2 61
3 2 54
4 1 92
5 1 49
6 1 58
7 1 79
8 1 46
9 1 101
10 1 53
Total1682

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02-16-2013, 05:41 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I guess I changed my opinion of Holecek vs Tretiak a bit in Round 2. I still think the overall panel was pretty harsh on Holecek though.

Also became convinced that Gardiner should be ranked over Durnan, with some separation between the two.

I think I was a little too excited about the discovery of the voting panel for the 1925 MacLean's list when I voted Vezina over Brimsek in round 2. Upon more sober reflection, our own panel did the right thing in ranking Brimsek 9th and Vezina 10th.

Ranking Vachon, Giacomin, Beezer, Luongo, and Joseph all back to back was on purpose. In vote 2 I became disturbed by the lack of modern representation, and raised my rankings of Luongo and Joseph in particular.

After looking at LeSueur vs Moran more closely, I would have raised LeSueur a little and dropped Moran a little (but still had him over Hern).

I still think the panel went a little too easy on the playoff records of Tony Esposito and Ed Giacomin.

I think I lost a little bit for Alec Connell every chance I had to vote for him. I just kept finding more guys I liked more. Our final ranking of him seems more accurate than my initial one.

Now, I would probably switch my initial rankings of Rayner and Lumley. I think my Round 2 votes reflect this.

Dzurilla and Cheevers were the two guys I was uncomfortable leaving off my final ballot, but I just ran out of room. Guess that means Cheevers was too low on my original list.

I also had Dave Kerr too low. My opinion on Chabot hasn't changed.

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02-17-2013, 10:24 AM
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I think you win the participation trophy.

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02-17-2013, 11:33 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I think you win the participation trophy.
And Ms(r). Congeniality.

Gap between Giacomin & Cheevers too much, especially if you consider playoffs more highly.

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02-17-2013, 11:44 AM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I guess I changed my opinion of Holecek vs Tretiak a bit in Round 2. I still think the overall panel was pretty harsh on Holecek though.

Also became convinced that Gardiner should be ranked over Durnan, with some separation between the two.

I think I was a little too excited about the discovery of the voting panel for the 1925 MacLean's list when I voted Vezina over Brimsek in round 2. Upon more sober reflection, our own panel did the right thing in ranking Brimsek 9th and Vezina 10th.

Ranking Vachon, Giacomin, Beezer, Luongo, and Joseph all back to back was on purpose. In vote 2 I became disturbed by the lack of modern representation, and raised my rankings of Luongo and Joseph in particular.

After looking at LeSueur vs Moran more closely, I would have raised LeSueur a little and dropped Moran a little (but still had him over Hern).

I still think the panel went a little too easy on the playoff records of Tony Esposito and Ed Giacomin.

I think I lost a little bit for Alec Connell every chance I had to vote for him. I just kept finding more guys I liked more. Our final ranking of him seems more accurate than my initial one.

Now, I would probably switch my initial rankings of Rayner and Lumley. I think my Round 2 votes reflect this.

Dzurilla and Cheevers were the two guys I was uncomfortable leaving off my final ballot, but I just ran out of room. Guess that means Cheevers was too low on my original list.

I also had Dave Kerr too low. My opinion on Chabot hasn't changed.
Appropriate choice of words for reflection on Benedict.

Parent got your 6th place vote 3 rounds in row. Must be the only occurence of that outside of voters picking a favorite of theirs for first place 3 times in row.

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02-18-2013, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Gap between Giacomin & Cheevers too much, especially if you consider playoffs more highly.
On my initial list, I agree. Notice that I am one of the ones who never had Giacomin on my ballot until he got added. I would have both Giacomin and Cheevers in the early 40s if I were doing this today.

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02-18-2013, 05:13 PM
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Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On my initial list, I agree. Notice that I am one of the ones who never had Giacomin on my ballot until he got added. I would have both Giacomin and Cheevers in the early 40s if I were doing this today.
I'm sure I overrated Giacomin on my original list.

But I don't see any way these 2 were not top 40 goalies.

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02-18-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
But I don't see any way these 2 were not top 40 goalies.
I think there was some over-correction in Round 2 after people saw the number of 1960-1970s goaltenders named in the first three-quarters of the list (cited after each round in the main thread) - which was deceptively high because five of the 1945-52 goaltenders hung on longer than expected.

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02-18-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think there was some over-correction in Round 2 after people saw the number of 1960-1970s goaltenders named in the first three-quarters of the list (cited after each round in the main thread) - which was deceptively high because five of the 1945-52 goaltenders hung on longer than expected.
Cheevers would have been the only NHL goaltender on our list to never finish top 4 in All Star voting and Giacomin has the worst playoff record (by a fair margin) of any goalie on the list, based on either save % or GAA vs his peers. Neither one has particularly impressive regular season stats either.

Edit: On the other hand, I wonder if there really should be a big gap between Vachon and Cheevers.

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02-18-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Cheevers would have been the only NHL goaltender on our list to never finish top 4 in All Star voting and Giacomin has the worst playoff record (by a fair margin) of any goalie on the list, based on either save % or GAA vs his peers. Neither one has particularly impressive regular season stats either.
Cheevers is also the only goalie in the HHOF that isn't on the list.

And Giacomin would be the only 5 time all-star not on the list.

But that crap aside, I consider them both top 40 based on what I saw. Could be faded memory, but its really hard to say for sure.

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02-18-2013, 06:06 PM
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Understand that I'm also coming at this from a perspective that the star players in the 1970s were probably overrated both by the "eye test" and statistically because they competed in such an unbalanced league. And this goes back to the 2008 and 2009 top 100 lists, where I believe that the 1970s was the most represented decade on both of them.

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02-18-2013, 08:04 PM
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I'm still interested in the international goalies, particularly since we didn't really end up debating any of them much other than Tretiak and Holecek. What's your logic on Pekka Lindmark, Vladimir Dzurilla, Jiri Kralik and Seth Martin ranked where they are, and would you change that any if you had to redo your list?

I was also wondering if you put any weighting on international performances by more recent goalies who played in the NHL (e.g. Burke, Irbe, Salo, etc.)?

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02-18-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I think there was some over-correction in Round 2 after people saw the number of 1960-1970s goaltenders named in the first three-quarters of the list (cited after each round in the main thread) - which was deceptively high because five of the 1945-52 goaltenders hung on longer than expected.
I agree that this happened, but I'm not sure it was really an over-correction. IMO, we simply ranked a couple 1970s goalies a little too high. They should still have made the list, just not ahead of modern/early goalies who played in more competitive eras.

Cheevers was going to be a borderline candidate any way you looked at it, seeing as he was #37 on the aggregate list. He ended up being passed by two active goalies and the relatively obscure LeSueur (all three of whom needed to be researched and defended) in addition to Mike Liut, and he was only slightly behind Liut in the end. He might have slipped past Liut if people were less focused on era-proportionate representation, but that's all, and it's not like there wasn't a legitimate argument supporting Liut above and beyond wanting a more diverse ballot.

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02-20-2013, 03:34 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContrarianGoaltender View Post
I'm still interested in the international goalies, particularly since we didn't really end up debating any of them much other than Tretiak and Holecek. What's your logic on Pekka Lindmark, Vladimir Dzurilla, Jiri Kralik and Seth Martin ranked where they are, and would you change that any if you had to redo your list?
First of all, I submitted my list (emailed to to the project email address that we use) right before opening the voting to everyone else, so I wouldn't be biased by what I saw on other submitted lists. So any arguments in the preliminary thread after that time (including my own research on Seth Martin) wouldn't have been taken into account by my initial list.

I originally had Pekka Lindmark, Vladimir Dzurilla, Jiri Kralik and Seth Martin all close to each other, for the simple reason that I couldn't see much separating them. I ended up rated Lindmark highest because I was impressed by his longevity as an impact player - won the Swedish equivalent of the Hart in 1981, and was the starting goaltender when Sweden won the Gold medal in a major upset in 1991. So even though I had a hard time distinguishing between Lindmark and Kralik at first, I went with Lindmark because Kralik didn't seem to do much outside of the early 80s.

Kralik's relative lack of longevity is probably why I ranked Dzurilla over him.

I didn't really have any reasoning for the position of Seth Martin - I just wanted to include him somewhere. If I did it again, he'd be at least as high as Dzurilla.

Quote:
I was also wondering if you put any weighting on international performances by more recent goalies who played in the NHL (e.g. Burke, Irbe, Salo, etc.)?
A little bit, maybe not as much as I should have, but I don't put nearly as much stock into the post-1989 World Championships as the ones before then, because after the fall of Communism, the best players in Europe started to come to North America en masse.

Like I said, I submitted my list right at the beginning of the submission period, so I didn't get to take your posts about Irbe into account. I didn't even consider Irbe for my list at all when I made it, but after reading your posts, I would have at least considered him, though not sure if he would have made it. I did consider Salo's stellar performances at the World Championships, but he was downright awful in the Olympics and I think that takes away some of the luster, especially since I do view the post-1989 WCs as a second rate tournament. And Salo's NHL career wasn't that great.

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