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Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time?

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Old
02-16-2013, 11:44 PM
  #26
pdd
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Leetch was raised in Cheshire, Ct. He only lived in MA when he played at BC?
Hmm. I guess for some reason I remembered him being from MA. It's probably the Boston College thing and the fact that MA and CT are neighbors.

He's still the best defenseman from Texas though.

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02-17-2013, 12:38 AM
  #27
seventieslord
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Modano over Lafontaine without a second thought. Offensive peak isn't everything. That's all Lafontaine had on him. Modano has better offensive longevity, and a much better defensive game and play-off record. He'd be 5th on my list, after the obvious three and Howe.

That's assuming we don't count langway and hull as American.

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02-17-2013, 12:40 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 View Post
Technically, Langway was born in Taiwan, no?
I dont think a case like this is what the OP was thinking of, more a guy like Hull. If not it becomes a Stan Mikita case and i always find threads not counting him as a canadian player quite ridicoulous.

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02-17-2013, 02:01 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Modano over Lafontaine without a second thought. Offensive peak isn't everything. That's all Lafontaine had on him. Modano has better offensive longevity, and a much better defensive game and play-off record. He'd be 5th on my list, after the obvious three and Howe.

That's assuming we don't count langway and hull as American.
If you have Modano over Lafontaine because of longevity, you should really have him over Mark Howe too, IMO. Howe had a very injury-filled career himself

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02-17-2013, 02:08 AM
  #30
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If you have Modano over Lafontaine because of longevity, you should really have him over Mark Howe too, IMO. Howe had a very injury-filled career himself
Howe played until he was 40, and got into 1531 games including the WHA. Considering their eras, Howe's longevity stood out a lot more than Modano's.

Also, at their peak, I take Howe. he was a Norris runner up three times and was top-5 for the Hart twice as well, including a 3rd to Gretzky and Lemieux.

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02-17-2013, 02:24 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Modano over Lafontaine without a second thought. Offensive peak isn't everything. That's all Lafontaine had on him. Modano has better offensive longevity, and a much better defensive game and play-off record. He'd be 5th on my list, after the obvious three and Howe.

That's assuming we don't count langway and hull as American.
I don't know. They both had periods of dominance. I'm giving points to Lafontaine because he would have smashed every scoring record for US players had he not been concussed half a dozen times. At their best, I have a tough time taking Modano.

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02-17-2013, 02:40 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
I don't know. They both had periods of dominance. I'm giving points to Lafontaine because he would have smashed every scoring record for US players had he not been concussed half a dozen times. At their best, I have a tough time taking Modano.
LaFontaine might have, but Modano did! And think about what his stats would have looked like with coaches that let him loose like Pat's coaches did. The insane margins by which he led his team in scoring say it all.

I'm aware Lafontaine had years like that too - 89, 90, 91, 96 - and he was a very gifted player too, and I'm not even trying to claim that Modano's peak was as strong... but he did have that potential, and when you look at how bad he outscored his team - see 96, 97, 98 (pace), 99, 00, 02, 03 - if his teams played differently he might have been leading them 100-65 instead of just 80-50.

But he doesn't even really need the team style excuse. He has three 90+ adjusted point seasons, and 7 with 80+. Lafontaine has 1 and 4. (though that one was incredible, and he had a 57 game season that was at a similar pace). the fact that his two best seasons were (offensively) better than Modano's isn't enough here.

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02-17-2013, 03:26 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I didn't say it was a sure thing.

But Osgood was Detroit's best player against Anaheim,
Actually, that was just your perception of things.

Which was wrong, as it generally is.

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02-17-2013, 04:25 AM
  #34
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Honorable mention to Kevin Hatcher? maybe mix in Tom Barrasso?
Maybe not top 5 but pretty dang good.

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02-17-2013, 04:56 AM
  #35
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Mike Ramsey, Pat Lafontaine, Phil Housley should be in the top 5

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02-17-2013, 06:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Mike Ramsey, Pat Lafontaine, Phil Housley should be in the top 5
Top 5 american players in Buffalo Sabres history? Yeah, probably. LaFontaine at his best was a beauty. Housley was a chihuahua on skates though.

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02-17-2013, 06:27 AM
  #37
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Top 5 american players in Buffalo Sabres history? Yeah, probably
lol

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02-17-2013, 08:29 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Mike Ramsey, Pat Lafontaine, Phil Housley should be in the top 5
I think it is important to note that there are at least 4 solid American defenseman alone to put ahead of Housley (Chelios, Leetch, Howe, Langway). Housely is fine if all you wanted was a power play specialist who never had to be in the position to defend.

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02-17-2013, 08:35 AM
  #39
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I think Leetch should be number 2 and Lafontaine number 5.

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02-17-2013, 08:40 AM
  #40
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Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Howe
Lafontaine

in that order

hms to Langway and Modano

Honestly Leetch vs Howe is close to a tossup to me, but leaning Leetch more often then not.

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02-17-2013, 11:15 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Wasn't Langway born on a US military base in Taiwan, and are military bases not considered to be land in the territory of the military country, not the host country?

Correct and you beat me to the punch. His father worked at the US military hospital in Taipei. That would make him US born and not foreign.

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02-17-2013, 11:19 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I dont think a case like this is what the OP was thinking of, more a guy like Hull. If not it becomes a Stan Mikita case and i always find threads not counting him as a canadian player quite ridicoulous.
No Langway was born on US territory which is very much unlike Mikita. He should be in this list.

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02-17-2013, 11:30 AM
  #43
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I think most of it has to do with where you were raised and trained. Robyn Regehr was born in Brazil because his parents were missionaries. Obviously raised in Western Canada. Does that really make him less Canadian? I don't think so. What are the odds he plays in the NHL if he stays in Brazil? Or Olaf Kolzig. He's Canadian as far as I am concerned despite being born in South Africa. However, he always opted to play for Germany because one of his parents (I believe) was a German citizen and to be honest he was always a notch below the best Canadian goalies at that time.

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02-17-2013, 11:58 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think most of it has to do with where you were raised and trained. Robyn Regehr was born in Brazil because his parents were missionaries. Obviously raised in Western Canada. Does that really make him less Canadian? I don't think so. What are the odds he plays in the NHL if he stays in Brazil? Or Olaf Kolzig. He's Canadian as far as I am concerned despite being born in South Africa. However, he always opted to play for Germany because one of his parents (I believe) was a German citizen and to be honest he was always a notch below the best Canadian goalies at that time.
Agreed, this is silly that people are staying away from Langway, guy was born on US territory in Taiwan because his father was stationed there, But moves back to MA as an infant and grows up in Randolph MA but somehow he is not American now. I don't understand.

If being born on a US military base like John McCain is good enough to be/run POTUS than Langway sure as **** should be listed on here.

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02-17-2013, 12:00 PM
  #45
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Frank Brimsek
Mark Howe
Rod Langway
Chris Chelios
Patty LaFontaine

I don't think LaFontaine is getting the love he should. 50th NHL player to hit 1000 points, 19th fastest to 1000 points, 13th on the alltime points per game list (not including active players) only surpassed by Mario and Wayne during his era. The guy was outstanding, if he didn't get his head knocked around, we are looking at a 1500 or more points for a career easily. No other American comes close to his production.


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Old
02-17-2013, 12:23 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, I'm just going to say this right now.

Mike Modano was not close to as good as, let alone BETTER THAN, Pat LaFontaine.

And this isn't even a case of guys who were different (like Gretzky vs. Lemieux vs. Howe vs. Orr).

Both of them were speedy players. Both could score goals well. LaFontaine was an incredible playmaker... Modano was a decent one. Modano started off as a liability, but developed his game such that for a couple of seasons he was a capable defensive player before waning defensively. LaFontaine was basically average his whole career defensively. Modano never had even close to the overall offensive toolbox that LaFontaine had, and Modano's "defensive peak" wasn't good enough or long enough to overcome that.

I would argue that Jeremy Roenick even has a strong argument against Modano. They're not far apart in points or points per game, and Roenick was always much more physical and better defensively. Roenick also rarely had a Brett Hull with him to rack up points or a Jere Lehtinen to let him roam free. Modano has the Cup, but it can easily be argued that if a) his Stars were facing the 92 Penguins (as Roenick's Blackhawks did in 92) or b) Chris Osgood hadn't gotten injured against Anaheim, that c) the 99 Stars don't win the Cup.

Here's a top 10 (12) of American players.

Chris Chelios
Frank Brimsek
(Brett Hull)
Mark Howe
Brian Leetch
Pat LaFontaine
(Rod Langway)
John Vanbiesbrouck
Jeremy Roenick
Mike Modano
Tom Barrasso
Tim Thomas

HM: Brett Lebda
This whole post is just full of wrong.

Guess I'll argue that if A ) Lemieux doesnt return in the 1991 Cup final, B ) Nieuwendyk isn't injured in the first game of the 1998 playoffs, and C ) Moog doesn't suck vs Edmonton in '97, that Modano would have four Cups instead of just the one. Heck if Belfour didn't OD on cough medicine before game 1 of the 2000 Final and Cote didn't have his back to Arnott in game 6, Modano could easily have 5 Cups!

Roenick was more physical and shot out of the gates much quicker than Modano, but Modano caught up once he was handed the reigns and matured a bit. And he had a defensive element to his game that Roenick never did. And Brett Hull coming to Dallas at age 34 didn't exactly spike Modano's numbers. He was way passed his prime and they still played within the confines of a defensive system. Just ask Hull himself.

You should actually read Roenick's comments about Modano in his book.

Anyways...

I have a tough time putting a goalie (albeit one with great credentials) who played just 500 games and back in the 30s and 40s to boot, ahead of players like Modano, Chelios, and Lafontaine. To me those are the top 3 with Brian Leetch coming in 4th.


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Old
02-17-2013, 02:05 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Modano over Lafontaine without a second thought. Offensive peak isn't everything. That's all Lafontaine had on him. Modano has better offensive longevity, and a much better defensive game and play-off record. He'd be 5th on my list, after the obvious three and Howe.

That's assuming we don't count langway and hull as American.
I'm with you on this one. I put a lot of weight on the fact that Modano was the best player and the leader of a perennial contender in the late 90s/early 2000s, a team that won a cup and made the finals the following year, and made the conference finals several times. Of course, you can make the argument that Lafontaine never had teams nearly as talented as Modano did. At the very least, that's where I draw the line between a guy line Modano and a guy like Mullen. Mullen, while his teams had tremendous success, was always a complementary player...or, at least, was never THE star on his team. Modano, quite the opposite.

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02-17-2013, 02:15 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
If born in the USA is required, Brett Hull gets knocked out of my top 5. That said:

Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Howe
Langway
I'd take out Brismek, because it's really hard to compare goalies to postion players and also account for era as well.

I'll put in Modano and Roenick as Langway is quite over rated with his two Norris trophies that he probably didn't deserve but was rather the flavor of the day.

Lafontaine, Mullen, Tzkachuk and Housley also received consideration.

so for me it's

Chelios
Leetch
Howe
Modano
Roenick

Zach Parise and Ryan Suter have a chance at becoming top 5 guys and almost surely top 10 guys IMO.

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02-17-2013, 02:24 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think it is important to note that there are at least 4 solid American defenseman alone to put ahead of Housley (Chelios, Leetch, Howe, Langway). Housely is fine if all you wanted was a power play specialist who never had to be in the position to defend.
It's not surprising that Housley isn't getting much love here but people should look closely at his production in his 1st 10 years which was simply outstanding.

If he plays on better teams with a d partner to suits his style of play oh how the view of him would be different.

He doesn't make my top 5 but it's like most people here don't have him in their top 10 which is downright ridiculous IMO.

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02-17-2013, 02:36 PM
  #50
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I'd take out Brismek, because it's really hard to compare goalies to postion players and also account for era as well.

I'll put in Modano and Roenick as Langway is quite over rated with his two Norris trophies that he probably didn't deserve but was rather the flavor of the day.

Lafontaine, Mullen, Tzkachuk and Housley also received consideration.

so for me it's

Chelios
Leetch
Howe
Modano
Roenick

Zach Parise and Ryan Suter have a chance at becoming top 5 guys and almost surely top 10 guys IMO.
I'd keep my eye on Pat Kane.

I think it's gonna be tough as a defenseman for Suter to crack that list and move ahead of either Howe, Chelios, or Leetch. Especially when there's guys like Gary Suter, Housely, D.Hatcher, and Langway in between them. But I could see Parise and Kane at least nip at Roenick and Lafontain'e heels as far as forwards go.

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