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Who are the top 5 U.S.A. born players of all time?

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:21 AM
  #76
Marotte Marauder
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The real list begins at #3 after Frank Brimsek and Hobart Baker.

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:21 AM
  #77
tony d
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Chelios
Leetch
Howe
Brimsek
Langway

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02-18-2013, 10:25 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'd say Modano was very close.

It's very easy to look at raw numbers and think they must be worlds apart, but big changes in league offense levels happened between the peaks of Lafontaine and Modano.

The most flattering period for Lafontaine is 1988-1993, a period of 6 seasons. Ignoring games played and just looking at how dominant he actually was on the ice, he was at 1.38 PPG, #2 among mortals, and at 88% of the rate of the #1 mortal (Yzerman, 1.57)

Modano's most flattering period of the same length is ten years later, 1998-2003. During that time he was at 1.05 PPG, at 84% of the #1 mortal (Forsberg, 1.25).

Clearly, on a per-game level, Lafontaine was a more dominant offensive player - this simplistic method seems to suggest that it was by a margin of around 4%. But if you consider the defensive style Modano's stars played and what kind of impact it had on his stats, it's definitely arguable that the gap isn't really there at all. Whatever that gap is, it's rather small.

Then add in the superior two-way game, longevity (nearly double the career GP including full seasons in 92, 93, 94, 96, 97 with over 1.0 PPG), and much better playoff record, and I don't see how Modano doesn't take it.
Very good points and enough to sway me to the Modano side. I would put Modano 4th maybe 3rd after Brismek, Chelios, Howe and possibly Langway. So, guess that even drops him to 5th (ish).

Some tend to give great players that were injured more emphasis (think Cam Neely) on what they would have done as opposed to what they did. LaFontaine obviously is in that group, I never liked him when he was playing, probably because he was a Sabre and Rag and I am a Bruin fan. But now that I am older,I look back and think, holy ****, LaFontaine was one of the best to come out of the US.


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Old
02-18-2013, 10:34 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm sorry, but that's hilarious. i'm assuming bambam will appreciate this too, given his stance on timtom's colorado bunker.

EDIT: bambam, i'm pretty sure he's joking.



DOHH! swing and a miss!

Sorry, not familiar with his wit and I forgot to put new batteries in the sarcasm meter. Shame on me

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02-18-2013, 10:49 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
The real list begins at #3 after Frank Brimsek and Hobart Baker.
I can't imagine any substantive argument (i.e. one that's not loaded in speculation and fluff) for having Baker ahead of Chelios.

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02-18-2013, 10:54 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
The real list begins at #3 after Frank Brimsek and Hobart Baker.
It's tough to throw Hobey Baker in the discussion. He was only 26 when he died in WW1. He only played college puck and from the comments you read about him, he was a great athlete, as he was a great football and polo player too. I usually give lots of weight to the player of bygone eras because they are usually forgotten by the new generation of hockey fans. But with Baker, so very little is known about his hockey play besides the accounts we read. For me, too tough to put him on any list. He is on a class all by himself.

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02-18-2013, 11:32 AM
  #82
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Personally I prefer Leetch in front of Chelios, because I like his style of play better. He could dominate at the same level – hard to compare though because of the different styles – without the need to elbow someone unconscious and without the 200+ PIMs. Didn't see Chelios in Montreal but I feel Leetch in New York 90–95 was a little better than Chelios in Chicago. But hey that's only me.

You only have to see what happened to the Rangers in 92–93 when Leetch was out and the next year when he was back to realize the impact he had on that team.

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02-18-2013, 01:24 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
It's tough to throw Hobey Baker in the discussion. He was only 26 when he died in WW1. He only played college puck and from the comments you read about him, he was a great athlete, as he was a great football and polo player too. I usually give lots of weight to the player of bygone eras because they are usually forgotten by the new generation of hockey fans. But with Baker, so very little is known about his hockey play besides the accounts we read. For me, too tough to put him on any list. He is on a class all by himself.
Personally, I take Hobey Baker's candidacy in this topic as seriously as Moose Goheen's.

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02-18-2013, 09:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Yeah, I know I mean voters not only screwed the pouch once but for ***** and giggles they decided to give sloppy seconds to lousy Langway.

Great rational and reasoning behind your opinion, they got it wrong, not once but twice......
There was a huge "let's create a separate trophy for the best defensive Dman in the early 80's since the Norris was perceived as going to the Dman with the most points excluding a lot of great defensive Dmen from ever winning.

Langway was a great player but some people give him all the credit for Washington's turnaround in Washington in 83 when the reality is that there were alot of changes there.

In 81 and 82 the winners were seen as more offense 1st and not the "greatest Dmen of all time"

81
Randy Carlyle 120
Denis Potvin 113
Larry Robinson 100
Ray Bourque 53
Rod Langway 38
Brian Englom 21
Larry Murphy 16
Rob Ramage 15
Brad Park 14
Borje Salming 11

In 82
Doug Wilson 177 (29-8-8)
Ray Bourque 80 (8-10-10)
Paul Coffey 55 (4-7-14)
Craig Hartsburg 54 (7-5-4)
Larry Robinson 50 (4-9-3)
Brian Engblom 31 (0-8-7)
Barry Beck 28 (3-3-4)
Denis Potvin 27 (4-1-4)
Rod Langway 24 (2-4-2)
Kevin Lowe 20 (1-4-3)
John Van Boxmeer 6 (0-2-0)
Ken Morrow 5 (1-0-0)
Randy Carlyle 4 (0-1-1)
Borje Salming 4 (0-1-1)
Brad Park 1

Backlash and groundswell for a more Defesnive guy, so in 83
1. Rod Langway, Wsh 180 (24-16-12)
2. Mark Howe, Phi 155 (13-24-18)
3. Ray Bourque, Bos 139 (19-11-11)
4. Doug Wilson, Chi 29 (2-4-7)
5. Paul Coffey, Edm 24 (0-6-6)
6. Charlie Huddy, Edm 12
7. Paul Reinhart, Cgy 9
T8. Gordie Roberts, Min 6
T8. Mike O'Connell, Bos 6

In 84
Rod Langway 227 (37-11-9)
Paul Coffey 126 (12-18-12)
Ray Bourque 120 (9-20-15)
Denis Potvin 66 (4-9-19)
Phil Housley 4 (0-1-1)
Charlie Huddy 3 (0-1-0)
Mike O’Connell 3 (0-1-0)
Scott Stevens 3 (0-1-0)
Barry Beck 2 (0-0-2)
Mario Marois 1 (0-0-1)
Mark Howe 1 (0-0-1)
Mike Ramsey 1 (0-0-1)
Ken Morrow 1 (0-0-1)

In 85 voters began to back off the Langway bandwagon

Paul Coffey 223 (32-19-6)
Ray Bourque 136 (12-20-16)
Rod Langway 89 (8-10-19)
Doug Wilson 84 (9-11-6)
Scott Stevens 13 (1-0-8) age 20 probably more important on Washington IMO
Mark Howe 12 (1-1-4)
Brad Marsh 3 (0-1-0)
Kevin Lowe 3 (0-1-0)
Randy Carlyle 3 (0-0-3)
Reed Larson 1 (0-0-1)

In 86, the Langway wave was waning and wouldn't be seen again

Paul Coffey 280 (53-5-0)
Mark Howe 172 (7-44-5)
Larry Robinson 43 (0-4-31)
Ray Bourque 25 (0-3-16)
Rod Langway 19 (0-4-7) age 28
Dave Babych 1 (0-0-1)


It would be very interesting if Potvin had been totally healthy in 81 and 82 and won the Norris how Langway would have fared with less voters being upset at the Carlyle and Wilson wins.

Any way you slice it, there is some controversy over Langway and those 2 Norris wins IMO and should be put into perspective.

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02-18-2013, 09:22 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
The real list begins at #3 after Frank Brimsek and Hobart Baker.
sorry but Baker has no place on the top 5 USA born players of all time.

Not top 10 either, honestly he is a pioneer but if anyone includes him they better get the "Lafontaine what if" card out too.

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02-18-2013, 09:27 PM
  #86
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Housley isn't a top 5 guy to be sure but it's pretty hard to leave the 2nd leading scorer in histroy from the States out of the top 10 bad defense and era included.

Especially when the benefit of the doubt is being given to a goalie who played in a 40's NHL

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02-18-2013, 09:32 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Housley isn't a top 5 guy to be sure but it's pretty hard to leave the 2nd leading scorer in histroy from the States out of the top 10 bad defense and era included.

Especially when the benefit of the doubt is being given to a goalie who played in a 40's NHL
What benefit of the doubt would that be? That there were quality hockey players before we were born?

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02-18-2013, 10:24 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What benefit of the doubt would that be? That there were quality hockey players before we were born?
treating all eras as equal for one.

I didn't participate in the G project because goalies aren't my thing and it's really hard to really quantify the difference between a Loungo in the 2000's and a Brismek in the late 30's and 40's.

It's also not stated but pretty obvious that guys in the past, who many.
of us haven't seen get glamorized.

Joe Pelltier's site is an obvious example, a wealth of information, but it's like each bio was written by the players mother (okay slight exaggeration but if you read his site there is seldom any objective criticism of any players in the bios).

Much of the information from the past tends to be portrayed this way as well.

I took Brismek out of my list due to the lack of information and like I ahve stated before I really don't like to rate pre WW2 players to currents ones and like to keep goalies separate as well.

The bar for past players seems to be different than for current ones as well. Top 5,10 finishes and the players from Europe and the NHL, who were largely still separate in the 70's really get the benefit of the doubt, maybe even more so than pre WW2 players.

I'm not sure how to square the circle but always try to look at different eras in new ways and with different perspectives but unfortunately too many aren't asking questions about eras and it's a closed case for them.

My only hope that people consider it more seriously when we do the Centers and Wingers part of our best of all time project.

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02-18-2013, 10:41 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
treating all eras as equal for one.

I didn't participate in the G project because goalies aren't my thing and it's really hard to really quantify the difference between a Loungo in the 2000's and a Brismek in the late 30's and 40's.

It's also not stated but pretty obvious that guys in the past, who many.
of us haven't seen get glamorized.

Joe Pelltier's site is an obvious example, a wealth of information, but it's like each bio was written by the players mother (okay slight exaggeration but if you read his site there is seldom any objective criticism of any players in the bios).

Much of the information from the past tends to be portrayed this way as well.

I took Brismek out of my list due to the lack of information and like I ahve stated before I really don't like to rate pre WW2 players to currents ones and like to keep goalies separate as well.

The bar for past players seems to be different than for current ones as well. Top 5,10 finishes and the players from Europe and the NHL, who were largely still separate in the 70's really get the benefit of the doubt, maybe even more so than pre WW2 players.

I'm not sure how to square the circle but always try to look at different eras in new ways and with different perspectives but unfortunately too many aren't asking questions about eras and it's a closed case for them.

My only hope that people consider it more seriously when we do the Centers and Wingers part of our best of all time project.
What makes you think people rating pre WW2ers aren't considering these same things?

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02-18-2013, 10:58 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
treating all eras as equal for one.

I didn't participate in the G project because goalies aren't my thing and it's really hard to really quantify the difference between a Loungo in the 2000's and a Brismek in the late 30's and 40's.

It's also not stated but pretty obvious that guys in the past, who many.
of us haven't seen get glamorized.

Joe Pelltier's site is an obvious example, a wealth of information, but it's like each bio was written by the players mother (okay slight exaggeration but if you read his site there is seldom any objective criticism of any players in the bios).

Much of the information from the past tends to be portrayed this way as well.

I took Brismek out of my list due to the lack of information and like I ahve stated before I really don't like to rate pre WW2 players to currents ones and like to keep goalies separate as well.

The bar for past players seems to be different than for current ones as well. Top 5,10 finishes and the players from Europe and the NHL, who were largely still separate in the 70's really get the benefit of the doubt, maybe even more so than pre WW2 players.

I'm not sure how to square the circle but always try to look at different eras in new ways and with different perspectives but unfortunately too many aren't asking questions about eras and it's a closed case for them.

My only hope that people consider it more seriously when we do the Centers and Wingers part of our best of all time project.
Well brimsek is being compared to guys that werent close to being the best players in thier own era, he should get the benefit of the doubt. In 30 years someone will discredit roy and hasek.

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02-18-2013, 10:59 PM
  #91
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Do these players have to have played in the NHL?

John Mayasich deserves inclusion in any discussion of greatest American players. A gold and a silver in the Olympics and leading point scorer on the University of Minnesota's team history, but unfortunately played in the wrong era and never played professional hockey.

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02-18-2013, 11:22 PM
  #92
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Personally, I take Hobey Baker's candidacy in this topic as seriously as Moose Goheen's.
Agree. And not just because of a Hardyvan-style modern love way of thinking. Even if you consider all eras 100% equal and then look at how dominant each player was compared to the best in their own era, I can't have Baker even in my top-20. He was a US college player. Can anyone even name one player he competed against?

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02-19-2013, 12:26 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
treating all eras as equal for one.

I didn't participate in the G project because goalies aren't my thing and it's really hard to really quantify the difference between a Loungo in the 2000's and a Brismek in the late 30's and 40's.

It's also not stated but pretty obvious that guys in the past, who many.
of us haven't seen get glamorized.

Joe Pelltier's site is an obvious example, a wealth of information, but it's like each bio was written by the players mother (okay slight exaggeration but if you read his site there is seldom any objective criticism of any players in the bios).

Much of the information from the past tends to be portrayed this way as well.

I took Brismek out of my list due to the lack of information and like I ahve stated before I really don't like to rate pre WW2 players to currents ones and like to keep goalies separate as well.

The bar for past players seems to be different than for current ones as well. Top 5,10 finishes and the players from Europe and the NHL, who were largely still separate in the 70's really get the benefit of the doubt, maybe even more so than pre WW2 players.

I'm not sure how to square the circle but always try to look at different eras in new ways and with different perspectives but unfortunately too many aren't asking questions about eras and it's a closed case for them.

My only hope that people consider it more seriously when we do the Centers and Wingers part of our best of all time project.
So how then do you reconcile Bobby Hull vs. Bobby Orr? Would Orr be considered part of the "big four" if Hull had stayed in the NHL, or even moreso if thee had been no WHA and the league were tougher? What happens to Orr's numbers in that case? Maybe people start considering him "The best defenseman since Doug Harvey" and things like that.

As for Luongo vs. Brimsek...

Luongo was/is/has been one of the top two goalies in the league only a couple of times in his career, and he has had a long career. Brimsek received either first-team or second-team honors every season, except his final year when the Bruins missed the playoffs. This is like trying to argue that Ed Belfour was better than Dominik Hasek in the 90s.

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02-19-2013, 12:34 AM
  #94
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It's not surprising that Housley isn't getting much love here but people should look closely at his production in his 1st 10 years which was simply outstanding.

If he plays on better teams with a d partner to suits his style of play oh how the view of him would be different.

He doesn't make my top 5 but it's like most people here don't have him in their top 10 which is downright ridiculous IMO.
Maybe he's a top 10 guy, but a guy with those numbers still should have had a better Norris voting record in his favour. That tells you how he was viewed at the time. A good D partner can go a long way but you also have to take into consideration how he plays without one. Robinson did benefit from Savard but still won a Norris in 1980 when Savard was past his prime, not to mention a few good years after that on his own. Housley just couldn't carry a team the way even someone like Leetch could.

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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
Frank Brimsek
Mark Howe
Rod Langway
Chris Chelios
Patty LaFontaine

I don't think LaFontaine is getting the love he should. 50th NHL player to hit 1000 points, 19th fastest to 1000 points, 13th on the alltime points per game list (not including active players) only surpassed by Mario and Wayne during his era. The guy was outstanding, if he didn't get his head knocked around, we are looking at a 1500 or more points for a career easily. No other American comes close to his production.
There is definitely a lot of "woulda, shoulda" talk with Lafontaine and I agree, had he stayed healthy and played a full career I think he is certainly the best forward of all-time, American wise. I'll come out and say it, there has never been an American at any position to have a season better than Lafontaine's 1993 year. That's just my opinion but I personally think Lafontaine peaked higher than any American, including Chelios and Leetch.

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02-19-2013, 12:47 AM
  #95
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There is definitely a lot of "woulda, shoulda" talk with Lafontaine and I agree, had he stayed healthy and played a full career I think he is certainly the best forward of all-time, American wise. I'll come out and say it, there has never been an American at any position to have a season better than Lafontaine's 1993 year. That's just my opinion but I personally think Lafontaine peaked higher than any American, including Chelios and Leetch.
As far a forwards go, that's easily A#1 for American forwards.

But Chelios that same season was better. And Mark Howe in 1982-93 (when he should have won the Norris!) can also be argued. If you want to include Brett Hull, you have to rank Hull's Hart year as the top year for American forwards.

Another good one is John Vanbiesbrouck in 93-94.

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02-19-2013, 09:46 AM
  #96
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Maybe he's a top 10 guy, but a guy with those numbers still should have had a better Norris voting record in his favour. That tells you how he was viewed at the time. A good D partner can go a long way but you also have to take into consideration how he plays without one. Robinson did benefit from Savard but still won a Norris in 1980 when Savard was past his prime, not to mention a few good years after that on his own. Housley just couldn't carry a team the way even someone like Leetch could.
Personally, I don't put a ton of stock in to voting. Not that it doesn't mean anything, but at the end of the day it's a bunch of guys like us with separate opinions and separate criteria. How you vote could really depend on how you feel that day. It could be swayed by popular opinion that may not be right, and who knows if everyone's going in to the vote with the best of knowledge.

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02-19-2013, 02:11 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Housley isn't a top 5 guy to be sure but it's pretty hard to leave the 2nd leading scorer in histroy from the States out of the top 10 bad defense and era included.

Especially when the benefit of the doubt is being given to a goalie who played in a 40's NHL
I'd leave him off and gladly leave him off the top 10 list. I'll put it simply, he was awful in his own end. End discussion.

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02-19-2013, 02:25 PM
  #98
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Phil Housley has a tough time making my top 10, even not including Langway or Hull

1. Chris Chelios
2. Frank Brimsek
3. Brian Leetch
4. Mike Modano
5. Mark Howe
6. Pat Lafontaine

That's easy.

Then he still has to beat out two of Jeremy Roenick, Joe Mullen, Keith Tkachuk, Derian Hatcher, and Tom Barrasso to make the cut.

I just don't see it.

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02-19-2013, 02:32 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Phil Housley has a tough time making my top 10, even not including Langway or Hull

1. Chris Chelios
2. Frank Brimsek
3. Brian Leetch
4. Mike Modano
5. Mark Howe
6. Pat Lafontaine

That's easy.

Then he still has to beat out two of Jeremy Roenick, Joe Mullen, Keith Tkachuk, Derian Hatcher, and Tom Barrasso to make the cut.

I just don't see it.
Why are we still having this Langway doubt? I have proven he is US born and bred. There should be NO question about Langway anymore. People are mistaken if they do not think he was US born.

I also don't know how you can claim Nedomansky is Slovak when he was born in Czech in the other thread because the guy wants to be Slovak and than cast doubt on Langway when our US citizenship laws clearly state Langway is US born. That boggles my mind.

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02-19-2013, 03:27 PM
  #100
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i don't think roenick was going to get that much better (if at all). he slowed down early because he played the kind of high octane game where you slow down early. see: ovechkin, alex. i remember don cherry showing clips of young roenick skating through entire teams, completely out of control, and saying, "kids, don't do that. one in ten times, a guy like scott stevens is going to catch you and when you fall completely out of control, you fall hard." yup.
It's so fun to watch though, players like Roenick and Ovechkin. Hockey would be dull without them.

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