Show me the stats that prove he's incredible defensively. from what I've gathered he doesn't hit much, and his linemate had a +20 +/- while he had a -1, that's a little fishy.
He lead the NHL in takeaways, 14th in voting for Selke nominee, just by watching some videos online of him and you'll see why his d is highly touted.
I've heard from people that have watched him play as well. I not interested in discussing his +/- as I personally haven't watched him that much last season but I know enough that +/- doesn't tell the whole story.
Part of the reason why I am a big ROR supporter is because I have watched him multiple times considering he is the only NHL talent to come from my high school. I have watched him skate in person through out the summer in the area, as well as followed his OHL career more than the average fan would have because I was familiar with who he was.
All I have ever heard is good things about his family, and the excellent hockey training program his father runs in the area.
I was hoping the Leafs would somehow draft him in 09.
(I'm not going to pretend I know him personally, because I don't)
Interesting.
But there is still a chance that ROR turns out to be a one-hit wonder, because he nearly doubled his career totals this past season. He may be a "defensive specialist" but how come he was negative while Landeskog was a +20 and Downie was a +6? As the other poster said above, that seems a little fishy. Its just weird to see guys willing to give up a potential top pairing dman (Gardiner) plus for a potential top six center coming off a good year. He's also looking for a long-term deal, in case he cannot produce like he did this past season.
Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome O'Reilly to the team with open arms, but not at the price of Gardiner + anything. I'd have a hard time trading Jake straight up, I probably wouldn't do it because I don't want to overpay and get shafted like we often do when trading young players or picks.
For the record, in 09 I wanted Ryan Ellis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superstar
No Gardiner, please. Mobile, puck-moving, PP quarterback dmen are very hard to find.
It makes it easier looking at our depth on D, but yeah I'd be hesitant to deal Gardiner as well.
It makes it easier looking at our depth on D, but yeah I'd be hesitant to deal Gardiner as well.
We may have depth, but we don't have anyone like Gardiner (Rielly perhaps, but he's not ready) who could skate so well, has good vision, run the powerplay, and carry the puck out of our zone. Remember what happened when some ex-GM thought we had two great prospects in Pogge and Rask, and thought one could be traded?
But there is still a chance that ROR turns out to be a one-hit wonder, because he nearly doubled his career totals this past season. He may be a "defensive specialist" but how come he was negative while Landeskog was a +20 and Downie was a +6? As the other poster said above, that seems a little fishy. Its just weird to see guys willing to give up a potential top pairing dman (Gardiner) plus for a potential top six center coming off a good year. He's also looking for a long-term deal, in case he cannot produce like he did this past season.
Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome O'Reilly to the team with open arms, but not at the price of Gardiner + anything. I'd have a hard time trading Jake straight up, I probably wouldn't do it because I don't want to overpay and get shafted like we often do when trading young players or picks.
For the record, in 09 I wanted Ryan Ellis.
It makes it easier looking at our depth on D, but yeah I'd be hesitant to deal Gardiner as well.
With the bolded, who's to say that the same thing won't happen with Gardiner? He is coming off a concussion, which leaves only more question marks. Its basically just a risk that would have to be taken, and I wouldn't oppose that risk.
As far as the whole plus-minus thing, I have been told before that O'Reilly plays against teams top lines in a shutdown role. Since he is taking on better players, obviously the better players are going to score more to. Although I can't factually back that claim up because I have no idea what kind of stat would even cover something like that.
And I should just reiterate that I am a huge Gardiner fan. In fact I'd say when he is on the big club, he is probably my favorite dman.
With the bolded, who's to say that the same thing won't happen with Gardiner? He is coming off a concussion, which leaves only more question marks. Its basically just a risk that would have to be taken, and I wouldn't oppose that risk.
As far as the whole plus-minus thing, I have been told before that O'Reilly plays against teams top lines in a shutdown role. Since he is taking on better players, obviously the better players are going to score more to. Although I can't factually back that claim up because I have no idea what kind of stat would even cover something like that.
And I should just reiterate that I am a huge Gardiner fan. In fact I'd say when he is on the big club, he is probably my favorite dman.
Yeah, but Gardiner's not asking for a long term contract for $5 mil plus. We won't be just making a trade, we have to pay the guy we're getting.
With the bolded, who's to say that the same thing won't happen with Gardiner? He is coming off a concussion, which leaves only more question marks. Its basically just a risk that would have to be taken, and I wouldn't oppose that risk.
As far as the whole plus-minus thing, I have been told before that O'Reilly plays against teams top lines in a shutdown role. Since he is taking on better players, obviously the better players are going to score more to. Although I can't factually back that claim up because I have no idea what kind of stat would even cover something like that.
And I should just reiterate that I am a huge Gardiner fan. In fact I'd say when he is on the big club, he is probably my favorite dman.
I guess it has the potential of being a good hockey trade, ex. JvR for Schenn, which worked out for both teams. On the other hand, Gardiner is signed to a cap friendly deal long enough for us to see how much money he is actually worth.
If he does play in that shutdown role, he plays with his line-mates, not by himself so shouldn't they all be negative? It's very very odd to see a line of +20 - -1 - +6(20 GP), in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstemperor
Reiley won't get anything close to the package Healy suggested. But if we can get him at the right price, it's a move you make.
Don't listen to Healy, I'm shocked he still has a job. He and Kevin Weekes were riding each other pretty hard, PJ Stock in my opinion is the only person worth listening to on that panel. And he said ROR is a risk, scored 26 points twice, then 55, was never a PPG player.. In any league.
O'Rielly is one of the best young two-way centres in the game and some you guys are saying "oh what if he's a one hit wonder and will only score 55 points" but you already predict 50 point seasons for Gards. Personally, I'd be happy if he develops into a solid #3 guy.
Dealing Gards for ROR is similar to dealing Schenn for JVR. Dealing from an area strength (young dmen) for an area of need (young centres).
The only thing I don't like about the idea of trading for ROR is the fact that they'll have 5 and 5.5 tied up for ROR and Grabo plus whatever Kadri/Bozak (if we dont deal em) are getting and that would eat up a lotta salary down the middle. One would have to move.
Yeah, but Gardiner's not asking for a long term contract for $5 mil plus. We won't be just making a trade, we have to pay the guy we're getting.
It's not my money, first of all, and secondly, he'll instantly be our 2nd best player. Our best player makes 5.4 million a year (Phil Kessel).
If you compare him to guys he plays similar to right now, its not an over payment by any means.
I compared him to players like David Backes, Ryan Callahan and Dustin Brown earlier because I wanted to show his value to a particular team. All those 3 guys aren't the best players on their teams, but are arguably the most important. That's who Ryan O'Reilly is.
Patrice Bergeron is a more accurate comparison and he recently signed a 3 year deal worth 15 million.
O'Reilly is younger, will win Selkes much like Bergeron, and because he's still only 22, he has potential to score more than he already has.
It's not my money, first of all, and secondly, he'll instantly be our 2nd best player. Our best player makes 5.4 million a year (Phil Kessel).
If you compare him to guys he plays similar to right now, its not an over payment by any means.
I compared him to players like David Backes, Ryan Callahan and Dustin Brown earlier because I wanted to show his value to a particular team. All those 3 guys aren't the best players on their teams, but are arguably the most important. That's who Ryan O'Reilly is.
Patrice Bergeron is a more accurate comparison and he recently signed a 3 year deal worth 15 million.
O'Reilly is younger, will win Selkes much like Bergeron, and because he's still only 22, he has potential to score more than he already has.
You made some fair points, but for a guy whose not even a PPG in junior, the ability to score more points in the NHL is rare. Also, Backes, Callahan and Brown all hit like a rock.
O'Rielly is one of the best young two-way centres in the game and some you guys are saying "oh what if he's a one hit wonder and will only score 55 points" but you already predict 50 point seasons for Gards. Personally, I'd be happy if he develops into a solid #3 guy.
Dealing Gards for ROR is similar to dealing Schenn for JVR. Dealing from an area strength (young dmen) for an area of need (young centres).
The only thing I don't like about the idea of trading for ROR is the fact that they'll have 5 and 5.5 tied up for ROR and Grabo plus whatever Kadri/Bozak (if we dont deal em) are getting and that would eat up a lotta salary down the middle. One would have to move.
I don't think there is anything wrong with C depth. I also think there will be takers for Grabo (not that trading him is imperative). He can be tried out on the wing.
You made some fair points, but for a guy whose not even a PPG in junior, the ability to score more points in the NHL is rare. Also, Backes, Callahan and Brown all hit like a rock.
Like I said, he doesn't have to hit like a rock to prove his worth to a particular team.
No one on Boston hits like a rock but one can argue that Patrice Bergeron is their most important player, even though Chara and Seguin are their best overall players.
Why is Bergeron their most valuable player? He shuts down the other team's best players and can provide offense on top of that.
If the rumours of ROR wanting 5 million per year are true I say we just wait till the off-season and overpay for a UFA center in Getzlaf (dream), Roy, Weiss or Filppula.
Now if ROR is willing to take a deal at 4 million or less he's worth giving up assets for. Otherwise just sign a UFA and lets keep our assets that it would take to acquire him.
Toronto is lined up after we sign all of our RFAs and fill out the roster to have a couple million in cap space this off-season. There is always the option of buying out Komi to add a couple more. Trading Liles or Grabo this deadline before their trade value plummets in the off-season we'd have even more.
Like I said, he doesn't have to hit like a rock to prove his worth to a particular team.
No one on Boston hits like a rock but one can argue that Patrice Bergeron is their most important player, even though Chara and Seguin are their best overall players.
Why is Bergeron their most valuable player? He shuts down the other team's best players and can provide offense on top of that.
I don't agree Bergeron is their most valuable player, he's not Datsyuk. And Lucic could certainly hit like a rock.
Boston is simply a very good team, with a solid system in place. They had awesome goaltending when they won the Cup and Thomas was the MVP. You're undermining Chara, he's the glue of that team, and won the Norris to show his merit. Boston is a different team without Chara. I think Chara plays a bigger role in shutting down the other teams' top lines than Bergeron.
I don't agree Bergeron is their most valuable player, he's not Datsyuk.
Boston is simply a very good team, with a solid system in place. They had awesome goaltending when they won the Cup and Thomas was the MVP. You're undermining Chara, he's the glue of that team, and won the Norris to show his merit. Boston is a different team without Chara. I think Chara plays a bigger role in shutting down the other teams' top lines than Bergeron.
I agree.
I'm trying to find the most suitable comparisons for Ryan O'Reilly and I can't do that without comparing him to players. Every player is different. I mean, I can't literally, find you an exact comparison to a ... Ilya Kovalchuk, for example.
All I'm saying is that O'Reilly will be an extremely valuable player for us.
We're a better overall team than the Avalanche. We've got young players who've played with each other for a while and have gotten accustomed to each other, hence, there is chemistry.
A Ryan O'Relly added to this group and we're most likely in the playoffs.
Our work won't be finished with O'Reilly but we'd have added a significant piece to the puzzle.
I'm trying to find the most suitable comparisons for Ryan O'Reilly and I can't do that without comparing him to players. Every player is different. I mean, I can't literally, find you an exact comparison to a ... Ilya Kovalchuk, for example.
All I'm saying is that O'Reilly will be an extremely valuable player for us.
We're a better overall team than the Avalanche. We've got young players who've played with each other for a while and have gotten accustomed to each other, hence, there is chemistry.
A Ryan O'Relly added to this group and we're most likely in the playoffs.
Our work won't be finished with O'Reilly but we'd have added a significant piece to the puzzle.
I agree O'Reilly would make the Leafs a better team, and you're right, exact comparables are hard to find, I see that. ROR would be valuable to the Leafs for sure -- the question really becomes at what cost does it take to get him and would that cost be worth it?
I agree O'Reilly would make the Leafs a better team, and you're right, exact comparables are hard to find, I see that. ROR would be valuable to the Leafs for sure -- the question really becomes at what cost does it take to get him and would that cost be worth it?
As well as what does he truly want for a contract.
A big difference between having his cap hit around 4 million vs. a million more at say 5 million in what it would be worth to give up for him.
And you do know that D-men get better with age right? Defense is still an issue for us. Besides, ROR is no sure-shot #1C. I don't think he is a #1C on a playoff team.
Given our defense situation, I hope we keep Gardiner. We give up wayyyyyy too many shots and chances.
This is what I wanted to write when I read the op. What he said
