HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Notices

Break up VHP and get a better balance to this lineup

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2013, 12:21 PM
  #1
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,299
vCash: 500
Break up VHP and get a better balance to this lineup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
I was thinking Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville earlier today. That would be a really good second line. Vanek and Hodgson would then need a RW, and it also takes Pominville away from Vanek, which isn't good either.

Either way, it's not a bad set up.
Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

joshjull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:35 PM
  #2
Irving Zisman
Really Bad Grandpa
 
Irving Zisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 'Merica
Posts: 786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.
I can see both sides of it, tbh. You're definitely spot on with your assessment that seperating Van and Poms actually helped overall last year, but I think you still don't mess with the magic of that top line... At least for now. Stafford, offensive suckage this year aside, has shown he has the defensive chops to be an effective RW on a two-way shutdown line centered by someone like ROR. Of course Poms would be better, but Stafford's size and more willingness to use it this year would actually work pretty well alongside a cerebral type center like O'Reilly. I'd go something like:

V-H-P
O-O'R-S
F-G-L (if L's ever healthy... This could be our version of Hartnell-Briere-Leino)
G/S-H-K

Irving Zisman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:37 PM
  #3
Stop Winnin
TANK ON BOYS
 
Stop Winnin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Buffalo
Posts: 8,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.
It worked because we had Roy then. Who even despite his scoring woes was still a threat.

Stop Winnin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:38 PM
  #4
Der Jaeger
Registered User
 
Der Jaeger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Country: United States
Posts: 1,913
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.
True, though neither Pominville nor Vanek played at the same rate. Vanek and Pominville at the start of this season, and last, are playing better than separated late last season. Vanek was hurt, but that's not accounting for everything. They play better together.

Though, on the other hand, I like the idea of Foligno playing on Vanek's line. I know Vanek is good playing off-wing, but I also like the idea of Foligno creating space for him.

Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville
Ott - Grigorenko - Stafford (eventually Armia)

I do like those lines, especially when Armia arrives.

Der Jaeger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 12:39 PM
  #5
HockeyH3aven
#Flynnsanity
 
HockeyH3aven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Buffalo NY
Country: United States
Posts: 6,200
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.
You're suggesting breaking up something that is working (VHP line) to try something that may or may not work. It happens and sometimes it's a good idea, but I don't see why you would do it in this situation.

HockeyH3aven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:01 PM
  #6
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,299
vCash: 500
Break up VHP and get a better balance to this lineup

I know many will be up in arms over the very idea but humor me for a moment.

The current setup is not working for the TEAM. Yes individually its been great for VHP but for the team its led to our 2nd and 3rd lines floundering.

Last season when we split them up is when our team's overall play took off, we had 3 effective lines and a two way line that did the heavy lifting defensively.

The lines during that stretch were

Leino/Roy/Pommer
Tropp/Hodgson/Vanek
Foligno/Ennis/Stafford


Roy's line did the heavy lifting defensively while still providing offense. The other two lines took turns tearing it up offensively.

Now it will be tougher with the current lineup to put together a strong two way line since we have no center of Roy's caliber on faceoffs or defensively or a forward with Leino's cycling ability.

But here's a stab at it.


Foligno/Hodgson/Vanek
Gerbe/Ennis/Stafford
Ott/Hecht/Pommer

You could also flip Gerbe and Foligno

Ott/Hecht/Pommer should be able to provide a solid level of defensive play and free up the other two lines to play a more straight forward offensive game. Ott/Pommer would also provide a solid support system when a checking line may not be needed and you want to put Grigs in on the 3rd line.

joshjull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:07 PM
  #7
Duddy
Everyday is
 
Duddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,375
vCash: 500
Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Ott - Hecht - Poms
Ennis - Grigs - Stafford
the others

basically
1st line
2 way line
feasting on opponents bottom liners/Dmans
Scott, Mccormick, Kaleta killing line


Last edited by Duddy: 02-18-2013 at 01:14 PM.
Duddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:11 PM
  #8
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
You're suggesting breaking up something that is working (VHP line) to try something that may or may not work. It happens and sometimes it's a good idea, but I don't see why you would do it in this situation.
You can't see why a team that sucks and can't win would want to shuffle their lines for a better mix?

joshjull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:13 PM
  #9
jBuds
pretty damn valuable
 
jBuds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: NYC Suburbs
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 26,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You can't see why a team that sucks and can't win would want to shuffle their lines for a better mix?
You're taking your only strong suit or piece that's working and trying to spread it out thinner across the lineup elsewhere.

I don't love it.

Then there's the thought of, "why try to improve this team in order to get us into a fight for 9th place?"

jBuds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:14 PM
  #10
thefifagod
I'm The Survivor
 
thefifagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,043
vCash: 500
I think you can make a competent defensive line without breaking up VHP. The problem is that Ruff doesn't have a clue as to how to use his players and his system sucks; Ott and Stafford have the same offensive zone start % (48%), Regehr is starting half the time in the offensive zone, etc. Personally, I would keep VHP and FES together and have my defensive line be Ott-Hecht-Kaleta. They'd be a minimal scoring threat but they would make things a lot easier for the top 6.


Last edited by thefifagod: 02-18-2013 at 01:43 PM.
thefifagod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:20 PM
  #11
Old Navy Goat
Registered User
 
Old Navy Goat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: San Antonio
Country: United States
Posts: 5,926
vCash: 500
You can think that they're playing like a hot steaming pile constructed as is, what's the worst that can happen if they tinker with the lines? Worse comes to worse they play crappier than now and we can then complain about how Lindy screwed up by tinkering with the lineup.

Old Navy Goat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:22 PM
  #12
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 37,899
vCash: 500
The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO...it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.

New Sabres Captain is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:24 PM
  #13
JPurp26
Registered User
 
JPurp26's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 5,194
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddy View Post
Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Ott - Hecht - Poms
Ennis - Grigs - Stafford
the others

basically
1st line
2 way line
feasting on opponents bottom liners/Dmans
Scott, Mccormick, Kaleta killing line
Well I am not encouraging breaking that line up, if they did, those lines are what I would do. Ideally a better version of Hecht is brought in and he is replaced (ROR).

JPurp26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:26 PM
  #14
Zman5778
Registered User
 
Zman5778's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: York, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 3,580
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Zman5778 Send a message via MSN to Zman5778 Send a message via Yahoo to Zman5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
You're taking your only strong suit or piece that's working and trying to spread it out thinner across the lineup elsewhere.

If there's a time to try it, it's now IMO.

Pominville has had a very pedestrian couple of games and it really looks like FES is finding their groove again.

If VHP is gonna be broken up, why not try:

Vanek/Hodgson/Ott (similar to V/H/Tropp that worked)
FES
Hecht/Grigorenko/Pominville (maybe try to rekindle a little magic??)

Zman5778 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:38 PM
  #15
Myllz
Pavelski Lite
 
Myllz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle
Country: United States
Posts: 12,931
vCash: 500
I don't think it honestly matters. Even if you split up the line, their production will get split into two lines instead of one. The end result would be the same, assuming they even continue their current production.

Myllz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:42 PM
  #16
thefifagod
I'm The Survivor
 
thefifagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,043
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO..it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.
Bingo.

thefifagod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 01:47 PM
  #17
OkimLom
Registered User
 
OkimLom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
I personally would like to see:

Vanek-Hodgson-Foligno Vanek and Cody have chemistry, Cody and Foligno have chemistry from Roch, and Vanek and Foligno work well on the PP.
Ott-Ennis-Gerbe - Yes, its dumb to have two smallest guys on the same line, but at this point, I don't care. their speed and ability to bring the puck out and cycle in the offensive zone makes me want to try it.
Stafford-Grigroenko-Pominville - I think the offense was flowing too much through Hodgson and Vanek to the point where Pominville seemed to be just floating around.
Kaleta-McCormick/Hecht-Hecht/Scott - We know what we get with this line.

I have no answers for Defense pairings

But I agree G&G, if anything needs to change its the system.

OkimLom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 02:02 PM
  #18
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 32,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrigsAndGirgs View Post
The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO...it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.
Its actually both and yes moving personel can have an impact.

We currently have no line that can handle or even attempt to handle playing against the top offensive lines of other teams. It leads to VHP and FES playing more than they should against strong offensive lines. While at the same time facing either a strong defensive pairing or a two way/defensive line. Its something a line like Vanek/Hodgson/Pommer can handle most nights but not Foligno/Ennis/Stafford.

Without a strong 3rd line as a two way option we are stuck with very bad match ups every night for our 2nd and 3rd lines.

And FES is not really heating up. They had one strong game -vs- Boston on 2/15 and thats about it in the last 5 games.

The last 5 games for those 3.

Ennis -----> 5gms 1g 3a 4pts -2 (2 of the 4 pts vs Boston 2/15)
Stafford --> 5gms 1g 3a 3pts +1 (2 of the 3pts -vs- Boston 2/15)
Foligno ---> 5gms 0g 1a 1pt -3 ( got that assist -vs- Boston 2/15)

Thats 5 of 8 pts from those three in that one game during that 5gm stretch.

Foligno has also been a minus 4 of the last 5gms. Ennis has been a minus player in 3 of last 5gms. Stafford 2 of 5.


Last edited by joshjull: 02-18-2013 at 02:07 PM.
joshjull is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:16 PM
  #19
WhoIsJimBob
Circle the Bandwagon
 
WhoIsJimBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Rochester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 15,510
vCash: 500
The tough part is that every time Ruff has done this in the past, it usually hasn't worked, and then the media and fans kill Ruff for tinkering with the lines and messing up the one line that was clicking...

WhoIsJimBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:27 PM
  #20
TehDoak
General Zad
 
TehDoak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 17,222
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to TehDoak
If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against

TehDoak is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:30 PM
  #21
Rob Paxon
Z E M G U S
 
Rob Paxon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: corfu, ny
Country: United States
Posts: 16,227
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Rob Paxon
I'm open to it in general but I am not sure now is the time. FES has been more active, giving a bit of hope that they can get going. The team is high in the league in scoring, goals allowed and general team defense is the real issue. If this move addresses that in part by constructing a high-use defensive line with Pommer on it then that's one thing.

If we do move Pom frankly I'd want him put with Grigs to see if he can help the kid along and create a 3rd line that could potentially score some goals.

Rob Paxon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:35 PM
  #22
Sabresfansince1980
Registered User
 
Sabresfansince1980's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: from Wheatfield, NY
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman5778 View Post
If there's a time to try it, it's now IMO.

Pominville has had a very pedestrian couple of games and it really looks like FES is finding their groove again.

If VHP is gonna be broken up, why not try:

Vanek/Hodgson/Ott (similar to V/H/Tropp that worked)
FES
Hecht/Grigorenko/Pominville (maybe try to rekindle a little magic??)
I mostly agree with this, as it's similar to what I posted several weeks ago...even once or twice prior to the season. The exceptions are that Leino is out now, and it's clear now that Grigorenko is not capable of pulling hard defensive assignments.

The basic idea though is legitimate, but as someone else also pointed out it's a system issue as well. Ruff has to stop forcing everyone into the same roles and responsibilities just because he envisions the perfect team handling the same minutes all the time. Even a legit Cup contender isn't that team, and the Sabres sure as hell aren't that team, so Ruff needs to set these lines up for success by playing them in favorable situations instead of asking them to continually do what they aren't quite ready/capable of.

Sabresfansince1980 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:37 PM
  #23
stokes84
Registered User
 
stokes84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Charleston, SC
Country: United States
Posts: 6,475
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to stokes84
Just flip the RWs to see if you can get something going. They are both not going well, can't hurt to try.

VHS
FEP

stokes84 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:44 PM
  #24
MLH
Registered User
 
MLH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,289
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against
Breaking up a line that has been downright abysmal at giving up goals against isn't going to lower the goals against?

Per 60 minutes of ES play, Hodgson is on the ice for 5.11 GA, Pominville for 4.79, and Vanek for 4.44.

There are only two other forwards (Foligno and Grigorenko) above 2.75 on the team.

For as good as they've been in the offensive end, they've been equally as poor in their own zone.

MLH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 03:47 PM
  #25
OkimLom
Registered User
 
OkimLom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against
Maybe if we find better chemistry for guys it might lead to more offensive zone time, which leads directly to lower defensive zone time, less chance for turnovers, less mistakes, possible lower goals against.

OkimLom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.