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Tatar and Nyquist, are they really the answer?

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  #51
Motown Beatdown
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Originally Posted by mindfly View Post
Tank and draft Jones with 1st overall and Hägg with 31st overall

Kronwall-Jones
Ouellet-Sproul
Bäckman-Smith

HM's: Hägg, Marchenko

There's the solution. Two pairs has one righty and one lefty (if marchenko turns out great replace smith with him), each pair has a more defensive minded Dman and one offensive. (Kronwall is not the no.1 D, they're listed as they would play as Left D and right D)
So in 2018 when they are ripe the defense will be good

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02-18-2013, 04:16 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Who do you think is best?
Not sure.
But I don't think Babcock has more claim than any other coaches with a Cup win, do you?
Is Babcock better than Quenville? Better than Sutter? Better than Julien? Carlyle? Laviolette? Tortorella?

I would probably say Laviolette is the best coach in the NHL.

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02-18-2013, 04:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Not sure.
But I don't think Babcock has more claim than any other coaches with a Cup win, do you?
Is Babcock better than Quenville? Better than Sutter? Better than Julien? Carlyle? Laviolette? Tortorella?

I would probably say Laviolette is the best coach in the NHL.
I don't think it's possible to quantify who is the 'best' coach. Coaches stocks rise and fall based on what they have to work with most of the time. The coaches who win the Jack Adams are generally the biggest overachievers.

I rank Babcock very highly based on the fact he's basically won everything, but best in the league? There's so many factors to look at.

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02-18-2013, 04:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
What has Babcock done in the last couple years to make you think he's the best coach in the game?
In the past few years he hasn't been able to do much because of the hand Holland dealt him. How many years, after they've been bounced out of the playoffs, has he said this team needs a legitimate top 6 winger? It still holds true, Brunner doesn't really count.

I think his SC, Gold Medal and .731 winning percentage with the Red Wings speaks for itself. The guy just has a mind for hockey.

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02-18-2013, 05:30 PM
  #55
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Sorry if this was already discussed but three hours ago Tatar posted an update on his facebook saying that he practiced with Datsyuk and Samuelsson, powerplay with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

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02-18-2013, 05:39 PM
  #56
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I'm starting to believe Tatar could become a better player than Nyquist in the end.

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02-18-2013, 05:49 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
In the past few years he hasn't been able to do much because of the hand Holland dealt him. How many years, after they've been bounced out of the playoffs, has he said this team needs a legitimate top 6 winger? It still holds true, Brunner doesn't really count.

I think his SC, Gold Medal and .731 winning percentage with the Red Wings speaks for itself. The guy just has a mind for hockey.
I think Babcock is overrated these days -- as coaching is largely a "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" business. Winning gold with Canada? IMO, i don't give a whole lot of credit for that.

I think Babcock has showed he's a good coach with a good team.
But what happens when the team isn't so good?

He had a great run... from 07 to 09.
But our defense has been decimated and our best forwards are older.

To me, it's foolish to just give the franchise keys to a coach and say "he's our guy."

There are probably 5-10 coaches in NHL circles who you can win with - if you have the right roster. Babcock is one of them.
But sometimes you need to make that change. Like Anaheim did when they dumped Babcock and brought in Carlyle.


Let's take a look at babcock's record here and where it fits on Detroit's all time record.
He's getting close to Scotty Bowman in terms of games coached.
He's coached more games than Jacque Demers and Bryan Murray combined.

In other words, he's coached a long, long time, by recent NHL standards.

And it might be time for a change. Not because someone is better than him. But because the position requires change from time to time.

I wish Holland had not brought in all these castoffs...Because I think Babcock could have benefited from coaching a young team with a new captain...

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02-18-2013, 05:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
I'm starting to believe Tatar could become a better player than Nyquist in the end.
I don't know about that. But Tatar is making me a believer. It will be up to Gus to get up here and do the same.

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02-18-2013, 05:52 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I don't think it's possible to quantify who is the 'best' coach. Coaches stocks rise and fall based on what they have to work with most of the time. The coaches who win the Jack Adams are generally the biggest overachievers.

I rank Babcock very highly based on the fact he's basically won everything, but best in the league? There's so many factors to look at.
I totally agree.
I'm not big on the Adams award, either.
Best coach ... means nothing to me.

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02-18-2013, 05:57 PM
  #60
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I don't think this is the time for a coaching change. There is rely nothing to be gained by it at this point. We aren't in a position where a new coach /system would put us over the top. We also aren't young enough where we need a coach to better suit a team full of up and comers. The oh way I see a coaching change is if babs and Kenny have a falling out or babs decides it's time to move on. We need, the front office not us here, need to worry more about personnel than the coach right now.

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02-18-2013, 06:02 PM
  #61
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I don't want a different coach either. We criticize coaching decisions all the time, but at the end of the day Babs has to make decisions based on the guys Kenny has given a roster spot to.

I think this franchise could definitely use some fresh perspective on roster decisions and I would not lost a minute of sleep if Nill replaced Kenny.

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02-18-2013, 06:08 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by VladTheImpaler View Post
I don't want a different coach either. We criticize coaching decisions all the time, but at the end of the day Babs has to make decisions based on the guys Kenny has given a roster spot to.

I think this franchise could definitely use some fresh perspective on roster decisions and I would not lost a minute of sleep if Nill replaced Kenny.
If you think Jim Nill comes from a wildly different place than Holland, I am surprised.

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02-18-2013, 06:15 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
I'm starting to believe Tatar could become a better player than Nyquist in the end.
I think that Tatar has been more assertive in his time with the Wings than Nyquist was, and I'm hoping that it's been enough to land him a full-time gig with the Wings to finish the season. Also impressed that Tatar is just over a year younger but seems to have jumped Gus in the prospect pecking order.

I don't think either guy is going to be a franchise player like Z or D, but if Babs committed to rolling 3 scoring lines, both guys should be up full time next season. I wouldn't be surprised if either guy ends up being part of a trade at some point this off-season or next year either, as there are a lot of talented forwards coming up in the next few years and only so many spots in Detroit for them to fill. I would gladly part with either guy in a package deal if the return was a legit PWF. I think I've come around to the point where I like Tat's grit and enthusiasm so selfishly I'd prefer him to stick if it came down to dealing one of the two players.

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Old
02-18-2013, 06:23 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Not sure.
But I don't think Babcock has more claim than any other coaches with a Cup win, do you?
Is Babcock better than Quenville? Better than Sutter? Better than Julien? Carlyle? Laviolette? Tortorella?

I would probably say Laviolette is the best coach in the NHL.
And what has he done with the Flyers? He was on the losing end against the Hawks in 2010...they haven't done much since then (no different than Detroit), and currently sit in 4th place in their division (no different than Detroit).

There's only a couple teams that I see being head and shoulders better (Pitt, Anaheim, Chicago), but those coaches have more tools to work with, but I don't know if I would really want any of those coaches over Babcock...Q never did anything in St. Louis or Colorado, but he's got a great core to work with in Chicago.

Boudreau? No, never could get it done in Washington, and Blysma has the misfortune of having Crosby and Malkin, and a good defensive core that has weathered some change.

Personal pick is Trotz, but Nashville needs to show more consistency.

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02-18-2013, 07:01 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by RedWinger10 View Post
Both Gus and Tatar need and deserve STINTS with the wings. Not 1 game her and there. 5-10 games minimum. Gus is a ppg+ player (NCAA and AHL) he has so much to contribute to this team. He is out for blood every time he touches the puck. There are too many players that haven't done damn thing but take up space (Sammy, Cleary). I don't care how much we are paying them, if they aren't contributing don't put them on the ice. Put someone who produces on the ice. And Tatar plays with an intensity that is awesome to see. He does something the team needs to do more often Put the puck on net.
On top of that we would get much needed speed on the ice rather than every team out skating us. I would love to use us send some combo of Fil and something for a legit younger defenseman. We have forwards galore and would much rather bring up some young guys with speed and intensity and help mend the terrible blue line problem.

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02-18-2013, 07:07 PM
  #66
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I wouldn't mind the Wings trying to pick up Guy Boucher when Babcock decides to pass the clipboard or if he is eventually let go.

Side by side analysis:

Boucher
(+) More scar tissue
(+) Younger/More time to develop
(=) Intimidating appearance
( -) Less total experience
( -) Less hardware to justify accomplishent

Babcock
(+) Older/More Experienced
(+) Two Stanley Cups, international accolades, highly accomplished
(=) It's hard be more intimidating than Babcock
(-) Boucher wins the scar tissue contest. Now put some makeup over that and terrorize Gotham City.
(-) Boucher is starting his pro coaching career, much more time to prove himself

As far as the efficacy of Ken Holland as of now, I think that he is greatly responsible for a significant period of success for the Wings; yet, to say that he did all that he could to make improvements to the team to pad the eventual departure of Nik Sr. would be embellishment. Hopefully he proves that he is still more than capable; I still wish there would have been some way to keep Yzerman in management for eventual posting as GM.


Last edited by TheFirebird: 02-18-2013 at 07:14 PM.
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02-18-2013, 07:08 PM
  #67
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And what has he done with the Flyers? He was on the losing end against the Hawks in 2010...they haven't done much since then (no different than Detroit), and currently sit in 4th place in their division (no different than Detroit).

There's only a couple teams that I see being head and shoulders better (Pitt, Anaheim, Chicago), but those coaches have more tools to work with, but I don't know if I would really want any of those coaches over Babcock...Q never did anything in St. Louis or Colorado, but he's got a great core to work with in Chicago.

Boudreau? No, never could get it done in Washington, and Blysma has the misfortune of having Crosby and Malkin, and a good defensive core that has weathered some change.

Personal pick is Trotz, but Nashville needs to show more consistency.
Laviolette's record
Made the playoffs twice in two years with the Islanders.
Won the cup with the Canes - a poorly managed franchise.
Went to the finals with the Flyers.

Watching that 24 hours series... I came away impressed by Laviollete
But again... does he have a short shelf life? I think that's true of most coaches. Even Babcock.

I give Trotz credit. But at some point...just making the playoffs isn't good enough.
He's had some talented teams...and when he's had the talent, he's not delivered. Forsberg. Last year. Etc

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02-18-2013, 07:34 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
If you think Jim Nill comes from a wildly different place than Holland, I am surprised.
I definitely don't think he comes from a wildly different place in terms of philosophy, but I think he would bring some hunger and fire into that job. Kenny seems like he is just stale and too complacent with what is just "good enough."

I think Nill would be very passionate from Day 1 to forge a name for himself as the top guy.

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02-18-2013, 07:34 PM
  #69
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Tatar has been impressive, he goes to the net, has a quick wrist shot and loves to shoot the puck on a pass first team.

I'd like to see him with Z or Pav (when he can center again) and see what he really has.

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02-18-2013, 07:46 PM
  #70
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Love that Tatar's going to get a shot with Datsyuk. Hate that Sammy is on that line. As bad as Fil has been, I'd still rather him alongside Datsyuk than Samuelsson. Once Franzen returns, hopefully he'll slot into that wing and push Sammy down to the 3rd line. My gut, however, tells me that Babcock will push Tatar down.

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02-18-2013, 08:35 PM
  #71
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Maybe it is just a case of me not seeing enough if Tatars game to be a good judge of him. I've seen a lot more of Nyquist and have followed his career more as I had high hopes for him, but have never really been sold on his game. Sadly, due to my men's league schedule, I've missed most of the last few games, which Tatar has been playing well.

I guess what is concerning to me is the lack of up and coming power forward players in our organization and the lack of production from those type of players up front has been our bane over the past few years. I don't think that those guys are easy to find, mind you, but I don't think that Tatar and Nyquist together in the top 6 is going to get us anywhere. Maybe using Nyquist as a trade piece, or Filppula (and use Nyquist to replace him), to get a guy like that would be a good move.

Or maybe I'm an idiot.

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02-18-2013, 08:41 PM
  #72
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Yeah if you missed the past few games than you missed why everyone is excited about Tatar. He went from looking like a typical rookie to looking like the 3rd most impressive forward on the team the past 3 games.

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02-18-2013, 08:42 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by VladTheImpaler View Post
I definitely don't think he comes from a wildly different place in terms of philosophy, but I think he would bring some hunger and fire into that job. Kenny seems like he is just stale and too complacent with what is just "good enough."

I think Nill would be very passionate from Day 1 to forge a name for himself as the top guy.
I'm not sure how you can assess the passion either guy has for their job unless you work in the organization with them or interact with them on a regular basis.

I think Jim Nill is in the perfect position for himself. He's been outstanding at managing our amateur scouting team and continually finding talent with the later picks the Wings have. I wouldn't want to lose that because fans think Holland isn't active enough in making trades.

I also don't see what kind of change would take place with him in charge instead of Holland. He's been in his position for 15 years and has turned down GM jobs elsewhere, that doesn't sound to me like a guy who is unhappy with how the team is managing the prospects he's selecting or with the general direction of the team. I wouldn't be surprised if the philosophy of keeping players in the minors longer didn't come directly from him, especially since managing prospects is the biggest part of his job description.

Maybe he'd be a little quicker to pull the trigger on a trade, but we really have no idea what he'd be like in that regard, I wouldn't expect him to be much different than Holland to be honest. What we could be sure of though is that he'd no longer be so hands on with the draft and losing his abilities there could be crippling to the franchise.

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02-18-2013, 08:48 PM
  #74
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We need one of our defensive prospects to become a top pairing defensemen way more than we need one of Tatar or Nyquist to become a 1st line player. That is what will be "the answer" to this team more than anything.

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02-18-2013, 09:01 PM
  #75
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We need one of our defensive prospects to become a top pairing defensemen way more than we need one of Tatar or Nyquist to become a 1st line player. That is what will be "the answer" to this team more than anything.
I don't know why, but I think Sproul and/or Ouellet have a chance to become stars in this league. That being said, its pretty unlikely.

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