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Giroux vs Zetterberg

View Poll Results: Who would you pick?
Giroux 64 47.41%
Zetterberg 71 52.59%
Voters: 135. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #101
Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
Every player in the league who produces more than 90 points proved their consistency right from the get go. Why should I believe that Giroux is the exception?
There's a set of Twins in Vancouver who'd disagree.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:28 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
There's a set of Twins in Vancouver who'd disagree.
Oh, man. So many HF "facts" to throw here, but I'll just say good luck with them in games that matter.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
There's a set of Twins in Vancouver who'd disagree.
Are these the same twins who have broken 90 points only 3 times between both of their 12 year careers? If that's what you call a consistent 90+ point player then I can see why we disagree.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by crowi View Post
Oh, man. So many HF "facts" to throw here, but I'll just say good luck with them in games that matter.
What are you talking about? The comment was that players who can produce 90+ points all have done so from day 1 in the league. I pointed out 2 players who more slowly developed to that point.


Not sure what your comment has to do with any of the above.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:36 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
Are these the same twins who have broken 90 points only 3 times between both of their 12 year careers? If that's what you call a consistent 90+ point player then I can see why we disagree.
You don't see the irony in that statement?

In the last 3 years, they have reached in essentially 4 times, including Danny's 85 points in 63 games season. Last year was a down year for both, where Henrik "only" scored 81 and Daniel missed 10 games.

I guess the 2 Art Ross trophies were as big of flukes as Giroux's 90+ point season?

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:40 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
What are you talking about? The comment was that players who can produce 90+ points all have done so from day 1 in the league. I pointed out 2 players who more slowly developed to that point.


Not sure what your comment has to do with any of the above.
Yep, they're both CONSISTENT 90 point players.... not. I guess that's partly my point.

Also would like to see what one of the twins could do without the other for a season. Perhaps, if there's just Henrik or Daniel out there, the guy won't even reach 90 points.

Giroux/Zetterberg are both easily better than an individual Sedin, in Giroux case, due to age/skill, in Zetterberg's the career (and might even be overall skill).

You brought the Sedins into a thread, that wasn't even about them. Yeah, they sure developed slowly to that point, that's right.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:42 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by crowi View Post
Yep, they're both CONSISTENT 90 point players.... not. I guess that's partly my point.

Also would like to see what one of the twins could do without the other for a season. Perhaps, if there's just Henrik or Daniel out there, the guy won't even reach 90 points.

Giroux/Zetterberg are both easily better than an individual Sedin, in Giroux case, due to age/skill, in Zetterberg's the career (and might even be overall skill).

You brought the Sedins into a thread, that wasn't even about them. Yeah, they sure developed slowly to that point, that's right.
Cool. I'm gonna go back to talking to the poster who my comment was directed at. G'day.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:42 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Cool. I'm gonna go back to talking to the poster who my comment was directed at. G'day.
K, bye. Glad we cleared everything up.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:48 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
You don't see the irony in that statement?

In the last 3 years, they have reached in essentially 4 times, including Danny's 85 points in 63 games season. Last year was a down year for both, where Henrik "only" scored 81 and Daniel missed 10 games.

I guess the 2 Art Ross trophies were as big of flukes as Giroux's 90+ point season?
You're missing the point completely. I realize that the Sedins and Giroux are all impressive players who have accomplished impressive feats and that's great. But Giroux scoring 93 points at 24 years old alone does not mean he should all of a sudden be expected to produce that way consistently. The Sedins have gone 3 of the past 6 seaons reaching that mark, but also 3/24 in their career. No matter which way you look at it, they are NOT consistent 90+ point players.

If anything that should show you how significant claiming Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently really is.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:52 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Oxenstierna View Post
Zetterberg is past his peak, suffering from injuries and how much hunger can there be left after winning all those cups. I'll go with Giroux.
Zetterberg has one cup, he missed the one people place him with Datsyuk for. Right now I take Zetterberg because of how complete his game is, but Giroux should pass him shortly. That comes from a huge Zetterberg fan.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:58 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
You're missing the point completely. I realize that the Sedins and Giroux are all impressive players who have accomplished impressive feats and that's great. But Giroux scoring 93 points at 24 years old alone does not mean he should all of a sudden be expected to produce that way consistently. The Sedins have gone 3 of the past 6 seaons reaching that mark, but also 3/24 in their career. No matter which way you look at it, they are NOT consistent 90+ point players.

If anything that should show you how significant claiming Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently really is.
What it shows me is that your meaning of "consistent" is far more extreme than mine. Your essentially saying a player can't be considered a "consistent 90 point player" unless they've done it in essentially every season of their careers, which I think is ridiculous. If that's the case, there are only 3 that have done that right now (not including injuries) and they are undisputaedly the 3 best players in the game.

So I guess my next question is, why does Giroux have to be a consistent 90+ point producer (by your definition) to be considered better than Zetterberg? It's not like he fits your definition either. What is your expected point production for him/his career if less than 90?

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:05 PM
  #112
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Let me get this straight, is Zetterberg a top 5 forward? I ask that because most people put Giroux as #4 on their lists. No way is Zetterberg a top 5 forward, he's not even top 15 imo.

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02-19-2013, 05:06 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
You're missing the point completely. I realize that the Sedins and Giroux are all impressive players who have accomplished impressive feats and that's great. But Giroux scoring 93 points at 24 years old alone does not mean he should all of a sudden be expected to produce that way consistently. The Sedins have gone 3 of the past 6 seaons reaching that mark, but also 3/24 in their career. No matter which way you look at it, they are NOT consistent 90+ point players.

If anything that should show you how significant claiming Giroux can produce 90+ points consistently really is.
When I say consistent I don't mean every year for the rest of his career. I mean, like a few times throughout the next few years, y'know, his prime. I thought that much was obvious by the fact that this thread is about short-term, and the fact that I pointed out what a forward's prime is and how Giroux is just entering his. Look at a guy like Joe Thornton, points per game of 0.70 throughout his first few seasons in the NHL (355GP), compared to Giroux's 0.72 points per game in his first 208GP (every year before 2011-2012). Thornton had a lower points per game and more experience, and then boom, 5 of his next 6 seasons are 90+ seasons. It's called a prime. It's this thing hockey players have when they play their best and produce the most and it's generally around 24-28.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:11 PM
  #114
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Giroux because he has a rare combination of talent and character.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:13 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
What it shows me is that your meaning of "consistent" is far more extreme than mine. Your essentially saying a player can't be considered a "consistent 90 point player" unless they've done it in essentially every season of their careers, which I think is ridiculous. If that's the case, there are only 3 that have done that right now (not including injuries) and they are undisputaedly the 3 best players in the game.

So I guess my next question is, why does Giroux have to be a consistent 90+ point producer (by your definition) to be considered better than Zetterberg? It's not like he fits your definition either. What is your expected point production for him/his career if less than 90?
My definition of consistent is certainly more than 2/12 seaons for H. Sedin and 1/12 for D. Sedin. I'd say it would have to be more thank half their "prime seasons".

The only edge Giroux may have on Zetterberg is in sheer point production. People seem to think it makes up for Zetterbeg playing Selke caliber defense and being arguably the most clutch player the league because they view him as a consistent 90+ point player. My point is, Giroux is not the player people are making him out to be offensively, and really the difference between their offensive ability isn't that big, and certainly not big enought to make up for every other aspect of the game.

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02-19-2013, 05:23 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
My definition of consistent is certainly more than 2/12 seaons for H. Sedin and 1/12 for D. Sedin. I'd say it would have to be more thank half their "prime seasons".

The only edge Giroux may have on Zetterberg is in sheer point production. People seem to think it makes up for Zetterbeg playing Selke caliber defense and being arguably the most clutch player the league because they view him as a consistent 90+ point player. My point is, Giroux is not the player people are making him out to be offensively, and really the difference between their offensive ability isn't that big, and certainly not big enought to make up for every other aspect of the game.
Are you saying the league views Zetterberg as a consistent 90+ point player? Because if you're he only hit 90 points once, which was about 5 years ago.

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02-19-2013, 05:26 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
Every player in the league who produces more than 90 points proved their consistency right from the get go. Why should I believe that Giroux is the exception?
You're talking about Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos, the 3 pretty much undisputed best right now. They aren't the only ones that can produce 90+ though. Like someone else mentioned, if your idea of consistency is every season, you're right, there's probably no one else in the league who will match that unless Ovechkin can get back to form (maybe one of the Oilers' multiple first overalls could, I'd put my money on RNH).

Someone else mentioned Thornton, who is the perfect example of someone who started off his career similar to Giroux, and was able to be a consistent 90+ producer through his prime. If Giroux can find the right linemates, I think we could see production similar to Thornton's, which by most people's definitions would constitute at consistent 90+ point producer, and should help settle him as a top 5 center throughout his prime. With production like that, I easily take him over Zetterberg given his other talents in the dot, on the PK and in his own zone.

You're saying he can't keep up the production like that because he'd have to be in the league of Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos. In my opinion, those players are the ones that will produce 90+ in the years around their prime and in their prime produce 100+ for a few seasons (maybe even more for Crosby). They're in a different league than Giroux, and that league is above 90+ if you ask me (Stamkos could be iffy).

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02-19-2013, 05:30 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
My definition of consistent is certainly more than 2/12 seaons for H. Sedin and 1/12 for D. Sedin. I'd say it would have to be more thank half their "prime seasons".

The only edge Giroux may have on Zetterberg is in sheer point production. People seem to think it makes up for Zetterbeg playing Selke caliber defense and being arguably the most clutch player the league because they view him as a consistent 90+ point player. My point is, Giroux is not the player people are making him out to be offensively, and really the difference between their offensive ability isn't that big, and certainly not big enought to make up for every other aspect of the game.
You say 2/12 when in reality it's 2/3. And that was my whole point about being slower developing. You talk about prime seasons but include seasons when they were 19-25 (ie. before their prime). But this isn't about the Sedins.

In the end, you are essentially saying a player can't be considered to be a 90+ player if they don't reach that point until the old age of 24...

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:42 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Are you saying the league views Zetterberg as a consistent 90+ point player? Because if you're he only hit 90 points once, which was about 5 years ago.
Might wanna read that again.
Giroux is being seen as consistent 90+ points player and is therefore seen better.

I'd take Giroux, got this feeling he'll start tearing it up soon.

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02-19-2013, 06:29 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
You say 2/12 when in reality it's 2/3. And that was my whole point about being slower developing. You talk about prime seasons but include seasons when they were 19-25 (ie. before their prime). But this isn't about the Sedins.

In the end, you are essentially saying a player can't be considered to be a 90+ player if they don't reach that point until the old age of 24...
I see what you're saying but we run into the same problem then, I don't think it's fair to claim a player is a proven consistent 90+ point producer after only two seasons (one in the case of Daniel) of hitting the mark.

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02-19-2013, 06:35 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Let me get this straight, is Zetterberg a top 5 forward? I ask that because most people put Giroux as #4 on their lists. No way is Zetterberg a top 5 forward, he's not even top 15 imo.
Not top 15? How many forwards have around 8 seasons of being a point per game player with Selke calibre defense and being one of the most clutch players in the game

I would love to see a list of 15 better forwards lol

People had Giroux in the top 5 last season but hes looking like hes not going to come close to matching last season and doesnt have close to the defensive value Zetterberg does

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02-19-2013, 06:42 PM
  #122
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This thread is really odd. People are saying that Zetterberg should have no votes at all, and yet the season is more than 25% over and Zetterberg has played a lot better than Giroux has.

Giroux is a great player, but he is not playing like one right now and it's a short season. I don't get the unconditional vote of confidence he's getting here over a proven high end forward in Zetterberg.

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02-19-2013, 06:46 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by 19NYSports91 View Post
Let me get this straight, is Zetterberg a top 5 forward? I ask that because most people put Giroux as #4 on their lists. No way is Zetterberg a top 5 forward, he's not even top 15 imo.
I think the contention is that Giroux isn't a top 5 forward either, or at least that he isn't playing like one.

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02-19-2013, 07:28 PM
  #124
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Not top 15? How many forwards have around 8 seasons of being a point per game player with Selke calibre defense and being one of the most clutch players in the game

I would love to see a list of 15 better forwards lol

People had Giroux in the top 5 last season but hes looking like hes not going to come close to matching last season and doesnt have close to the defensive value Zetterberg does
This poll is for this season and next season, most players who are in the top 15 haven't even played in the league for more than 8 years.

OP: Who do you pick for this season and next ONLY?

In no particular order players who I would pick for this year and next year easily.

Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Tavares, Giroux, Kovalchuk, Toews, Spezza, Kopitar, Staal, Perry, Datsyuk, Thornton, H. Sedin, D. Sedin, Parise, Hossa

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02-19-2013, 07:31 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by TradeBait View Post
My definition of consistent is certainly more than 2/12 seaons for H. Sedin and 1/12 for D. Sedin. I'd say it would have to be more thank half their "prime seasons".

The only edge Giroux may have on Zetterberg is in sheer point production. People seem to think it makes up for Zetterbeg playing Selke caliber defense and being arguably the most clutch player the league because they view him as a consistent 90+ point player. My point is, Giroux is not the player people are making him out to be offensively, and really the difference between their offensive ability isn't that big, and certainly not big enought to make up for every other aspect of the game.
Maybe I'll have more luck saying this another way.

-------------

Giroux has produced at a +90 point pace for 1/5 seasons. 20%

-------------

Crosby has produced at a +90 point pace for 8/8 seasons. 100%

Malkin has produced at a +90 point pace for 5/7 seasons. 71%

Stamkos has produced at a +90 point pace for 4/5 seasons. 80%

Ovechkin has produced at a +90 point pace for 6/8 seasons. 75%

--------------

D Sedin has produced at a +90 point pace for 2/12 seasons. 16%

H Sedin has produced at a +90 point pace for 2/12 seasons. 16%

Zetterberg has produced at a +90 point pace for 3/10 seasons. 30%

Spezza has produced at a +90 point pace for 3/10 seasons. 30%


Which group does it make sense to use as Giroux's comparables? More importantly, which group would it be completely unfair to use as Giroux's comparables?


Edit: and just to reiterate, I selected Giroux as the answer to this poll, so it's not like I'm trying to hate on him.

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