HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Notices

+/- Per 60 Minutes at 5on5 - The Awful Truth

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-18-2013, 07:43 PM
  #1
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
+/- Per 60 Minutes at 5on5 - The Awful Truth

Lashoff is the worst. Kronwall second worst. Huskins third worst.
RK NAME GF On/60 GA On/60 +/- Per 60
1 JAKUBKINDL 3.39 1.45 1.94
2 KYLEQUINCEY 3.07 1.67 1.4
3 BRENDANSMITH 2.9 1.74 1.16
4 JONATHANERICSSON 3.07 2.15 0.92
5 IANWHITE 1.81 1.45 0.36
6 CARLOCOLAIACOVO 0 0 0
7 KENTHUSKINS 0.63 1.26 -0.63
8 NIKLASKRONWALL 1.52 3.29 -1.77
9 BRIANLASHOFF 1.1 2.94 -1.84

So keep on making the case for Lashoff or Huskins over Kindl.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:46 PM
  #2
The Nose
#FireHolland
 
The Nose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 6,479
vCash: 500
Its crazy how good Kindl's ES #'s are. Both his ES +/- and PPG (from last year at least) are really really good.

That Kronwall - Lashoff pairing

The Nose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:47 PM
  #3
Townsend Beasley
Mission to Civilize
 
Townsend Beasley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dan's House
Country: Norway
Posts: 556
vCash: 500
Telling stuff. I dont see the value in sitting kindl

Townsend Beasley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:48 PM
  #4
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Typically the guys who play the most sheltered minutes benefit in the +/- department, which would be Kindl, Quincey and Smith. No surprise there.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:52 PM
  #5
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Very small sample size. Made worse when you consider that Kronwall and Lashoff have played soooooo much with the top line.
But here's last year's.
RK NAME GF On/60 GA On/60 +/- per 60
1 IANWHITE 3.31 2.02 1.29
2 BRENDANSMITH 2.84 1.58 1.26
3 NICKLASLIDSTROM 3.03 1.95 1.07
4 DOUGJANIK 3.39 2.42 0.97
5 JONATHANERICSSON 2.57 1.67 0.9
6 JAKUBKINDL 2.53 1.68 0.84
7 BRADSTUART 2.9 2.15 0.75
8 NIKLASKRONWALL 2.66 2.43 0.22
9 KYLEQUINCEY 2.32 2.52 -0.2
    

Kindl was about middle of the road last year.
Look how much worse Kronwall's is than everyone else (beside's quincey).

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:54 PM
  #6
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,792
vCash: 500
I hear what you're saying Bob, but then it has to go both ways. Because Quincey looks pretty damn good with that analysis.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:54 PM
  #7
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Typically the guys who play the most sheltered minutes benefit in the +/- department, which would be Kindl, Quincey and Smith. No surprise there.
Wrong. Check last year's stats for evidence.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:56 PM
  #8
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
I hear what you're saying Bob, but then it has to go both ways. Because Quincey looks pretty damn good with that analysis.
Quincey's defense has been much better after the first 4-5 games, when he was bailed out by Howard an awful lot.
Basically, since he stopped babysitting Smith and started playing with Ericsson or whatever.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:58 PM
  #9
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Wrong. Check last year's stats for evidence.
Not really worried about last year.

This year the top 3 guys are also the guys with the easiest assignments. Kronwall and Lashoff usually play together against the other team's top lines. Don't think that's a coincidence.

The fact that Quincey is #2 this year should tell you this might be flawed a bit.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 07:59 PM
  #10
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Quincey's defense has been much better after the first 4-5 games, when he was bailed out by Howard an awful lot.
Basically, since he stopped babysitting Smith and started playing with Ericsson or whatever.
Quincey's defense has been better?

OR his minutes have drastically reduced and he is getting easier defensive assignments?

I'm going to go with the latter.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:00 PM
  #11
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Quincey's defense has been much better after the first 4-5 games, when he was bailed out by Howard an awful lot.
Basically, since he stopped babysitting Smith and started playing with Ericsson or whatever.
I agree. And I guess I do have to admit that I haven't seen you bash him recently. He's still Quincey, but he has not been bad lately.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:02 PM
  #12
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Quincey's defense has been better?

OR his minutes have drastically reduced and he is getting easier defensive assignments?

I'm going to go with the latter.
That's probably a factor, but Quincey has been better. I can tell just by the fact that I don't hardly notice him lately when he's on the ice.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:03 PM
  #13
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
That's probably a factor, but Quincey has been better. I can tell just by the fact that I don't hardly notice him lately when he's on the ice.
He has been, I agree, I just think Babs has been making things a little easier for him as well.

I also think Kindl has played well this year to Bob's point, and Kron and Lash have not done well against the other team's top lines.

Just think it's important to factor in who everyone is playing against here.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:06 PM
  #14
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Not really worried about last year.

This year the top 3 guys are also the guys with the easiest assignments. Kronwall and Lashoff usually play together against the other team's top lines. Don't think that's a coincidence.

The fact that Quincey is #2 this year should tell you this might be flawed a bit.
The fact is that this team is scoring goals when Quincey is on the ice and not getting scored against.

Kronwall and Lashoff may be playing against the top players (maybe not -- sometimes they do, sometimes they don't), but they're also playing with our top offensive line ... and that should benefit their +/-

Meanwhile our 2nd and 3rd pairing guys are fairing better with lesser offensive talents.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:07 PM
  #15
The Nose
#FireHolland
 
The Nose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 6,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
He has been, I agree, I just think Babs has been making things a little easier for him as well.

I also think Kindl has played well this year to Bob's point, and Kron and Lash have not done well against the other team's top lines.

Just think it's important to factor in who everyone is playing against here.
Yes its definitely a factor. But Kindl's +/- per 60 is +4 better than Kronwall. There's more to that than just competition.

The Nose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:08 PM
  #16
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Quincey's defense has been better?

OR his minutes have drastically reduced and he is getting easier defensive assignments?

I'm going to go with the latter.
You haven't seen a drastic improvement in Quincey's D?
He was a gong show for the first 4-5 games.

This isn't just about goals against. It's about goals for.

At the end of the day, Kronwall and Lashoff are HORRID despite constantly having great forwards to play with.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:12 PM
  #17
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Meanwhile our 2nd and 3rd pairing guys are fairing better with lesser offensive talents.
That is something important to consider as well.

The fact that he is 3rd in D scoring is more impressive to me than +/- numbers, considering Kindl is usually out there with garbage forwards. I was really pretty disappointed to see him benched, it always messes with his head and he usually just tries to not make mistakes when that happens.

He was looking good skating the puck out of trouble, and looked more confident with the puck on his stick. Finally he has been making an effort to get physical and hit and win battles along the boards as well. I think we'll regret it if we let him go, but Babs is never going to let him develop the way he should. It's pretty evident for whatever reason it may be.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:13 PM
  #18
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
You haven't seen a drastic improvement in Quincey's D?
He was a gong show for the first 4-5 games.

This isn't just about goals against. It's about goals for.

At the end of the day, Kronwall and Lashoff are HORRID despite constantly having great forwards to play with.
No he has improved, I just think Babs has helped him out a bit as well.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:14 PM
  #19
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
To add to it, last year a 40+ year old Lidstrom played a lot of minutes against top competition and gave up less than two goals per 60.
Lashoff is nearly a goal higher and Kronwall is more than 1.25 goals higher.

On top of that, this team doesn't score goals when Lashoff is on the Ice.

1.1 goals per 60?

You want to know why we're losing?
1. Our #1 defenseman is getting eaten alive.
2. We've got a guy who has NO BUSINESS IN THE NHL taking a regular shift on our tap pairing.

All evidence-- eyesight, stats -- says Lashoff sucks. Yet Babcock talks this guy up and plays him in a primetime role.

That's on Babcock.

Bottom line: Babcock's decisions are hurting this team.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:16 PM
  #20
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
No he has improved, I just think Babs has helped him out a bit as well.
Fine. But this team is also scoring goals when Quincey is on the ice (thought Quincey apparently has nothing to do with it)

I don't know what stat you need to see...but these stats are pretty compelling.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:20 PM
  #21
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
You want to know why we're losing?
1. Our #1 defenseman is getting eaten alive.
2. We've got a guy who has NO BUSINESS IN THE NHL taking a regular shift on our tap pairing.

All evidence-- eyesight, stats -- says Lashoff sucks. Yet Babcock talks this guy up and plays him in a primetime role.

That's on Babcock.

Bottom line: Babcock's decisions are hurting this team.
I absolutely agree with these 2 points.

Lashoff plays FAR more minutes than he deserves in my opinion. Guy shold be a 3rd pairing D + PKer.

That being said our #1 and #2 D in terms of TOI are Kronwall and Ericsson. Those are probably the guys I'd play #1 and #2 as well. It's not like we have a ton of options to work with here. The fact is our group of defensemen just aren't that good no matter how you spin it. That's what happens when you replace Lidstrom, Stuart, and Kronwall with Ian White, Kyle Quincey, and Brian Lashoff. Your defense sucks ass.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:25 PM
  #22
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Fine. But this team is also scoring goals when Quincey is on the ice (thought Quincey apparently has nothing to do with it)

I don't know what stat you need to see...but these stats are pretty compelling.
Quincey has 0 g 0 a and 0 pts in 15 games. I'd say he has pretty much zero to do with this team scoring when he is on the ice.

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:28 PM
  #23
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
I absolutely agree with these 2 points.

Lashoff plays FAR more minutes than he deserves in my opinion. Guy shold be a 3rd pairing D + PKer.

That being said our #1 and #2 D in terms of TOI are Kronwall and Ericsson. Those are probably the guys I'd play #1 and #2 as well. It's not like we have a ton of options to work with here. The fact is our group of defensemen just aren't that good no matter how you spin it. That's what happens when you replace Lidstrom, Stuart, and Kronwall with Ian White, Kyle Quincey, and Brian Lashoff. Your defense sucks ass.
Our defense was going to be in for a rough ride. I still advocate making it the best it can be.

Right now, I understand that someone sucky is going to be in the lineup. But the choice should be Lashoff or Huskins.

Kindl shouldn't be on the bench.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:29 PM
  #24
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Quincey has 0 g 0 a and 0 pts in 15 games. I'd say he has pretty much zero to do with this team scoring when he is on the ice.
I tend to agree. yet somehow this team continues to score when he's out there.

RedWingsNow* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 08:33 PM
  #25
Frk It
#FireHolland
 
Frk It's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 9,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Our defense was going to be in for a rough ride. I still advocate making it the best it can be.

Right now, I understand that someone sucky is going to be in the lineup. But the choice should be Lashoff or Huskins.

Kindl shouldn't be on the bench.
How would you distribute minute and roles to try and maximize the defensive personnel that we have?

Frk It is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.