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Tank or no Tank!

View Poll Results: What should the Caps do?
Tank and trade UFA's 36 43.90%
Tank and re-tool 36 43.90%
Trade futures to right the ship 2 2.44%
Stand pat, hoping they pull it together. 8 9.76%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-18-2013, 09:07 PM
  #326
brs03
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Why trade Riberio? So we can spend the next 8 years looking for a 2C again? Tank or no tank, re-sign him.
Because he's a liability at ES, his play this season is going to earn him a huge contract that he's unlikely to live up to, and even if the Caps really want to keep him he's got no reason not to test the market so there's no point in holding onto him at the deadline.

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03-18-2013, 09:08 PM
  #327
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Why trade Riberio? So we can spend the next 8 years looking for a 2C again? Tank or no tank, re-sign him.
You act as if Ribeiro has no choice in the matter.

Odds are, he'll want to test the market, considering what Getzlaf got.

The worst thing the organization could do would be to let him walk for nothing, especially with how unlikely it looks that they make the playoffs. If that happens, you've essentially given up Cody Eakin, a 2nd rounder, and likely an additional 1st rounder and prospect for nothing.

That's why you trade Ribeiro.

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03-18-2013, 10:38 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by amjay13 View Post
Why trade Riberio? So we can spend the next 8 years looking for a 2C again? Tank or no tank, re-sign him.
Ribeiro might be the solution at 2C right now, but is this team ready to compete for a Cup right now? I think we have a much better chance in 2015 or 2016 or so, when Kuznetsov/Forsberg/Wilson/our top pick from this year's draft have had a chance to establish themselves in the NHL. By then, in Ribeiro the solution at 2C? Probably not.

I'd rather not have the cap liability in a few seasons when we give Ribeiro 5.5-6M this summer (at least, IMO) to keep him around for a couple of years. Plus trading him now probably gives us some good pieces that can help us more in a few seasons.

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03-19-2013, 12:29 AM
  #329
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Ribeiro is also producing well above his career average right now, so his value won't ever be higher. Likewise, it'd be foolish to sign him for the dollars that a short, inflated season will allow him to command.

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03-19-2013, 12:57 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Ribeiro is also producing well above his career average right now, so his value won't ever be higher. Likewise, it'd be foolish to sign him for the dollars that a short, inflated season will allow him to command.
Don't worry, GMGM would never sign a player to an extension at his most inflated value.

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03-19-2013, 08:38 AM
  #331
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I know what you mean but I believe rooting against them in the short-term is rooting for them in the long-term. Rooting for them now is...I mean it's your team and you hate to see them lose, so I understand it. The fact remains that the organization is dying on the vine. Don't shoot the messenger but we are becoming like the Islanders minus their illustrious history.

Tanking isn't the answer, really. The answer is for Ted to hire a GM who actually knows what he is doing.
Completely understand that rational component of what you say but the emotional part of me cannot accept it. I want the Caps to win every time they play.

Which brings me to another point...even winning these kinds of games may have longterm positive psychological benefit. This is not discussed but losing and losing alot chips away at team confidence. For instance if we finish dead last then I would imagine it would affect the confidence of every player on the roster going forward...who knows.

I want them to crush the Pens for sure. I wanted them to win that last game in 2003 vs the Pens (Matt Yeatts ..clash of the tankers)

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Pretty much the same for me here. Intellectually rather a mini sell off of any current caps players that are not in their plans for next season. Would help to re-stock their prospect pipeline a bit. Getting a 1st for Ribero in the 15-25 range would be nice. That said if he could be resigned for something that made sense I would not have a problem with it though really hard to imagine Ribero giving the caps a deal. As far as with the Caps pick a top 7 one would be great. Top 3 would be some serious gravy. One of MacKinnon/Drouin/Jones would look great with Forsberg/Wilson/Kuznetsov. If Ribs fetches a later first nabbing an Dman would be nice.
Yeah I'm with you. I really don't think we are in all that bad a shape going forward.

Orlov, Erskine, Green, Laich etc will help next year for sure. Having Forsberg and maybe Wilson aboard will provide some jolt and more youth.

Our cap situation isn't a disaster either. A lot of other teams can't say that.

Two picks like you mention can go a long way or even resigning Ribeiro would be good.

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03-19-2013, 09:43 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by breakawaygoal View Post
Ribeiro might be the solution at 2C right now, but is this team ready to compete for a Cup right now? I think we have a much better chance in 2015 or 2016 or so, when Kuznetsov/Forsberg/Wilson/our top pick from this year's draft have had a chance to establish themselves in the NHL. By then, in Ribeiro the solution at 2C? Probably not.

I'd rather not have the cap liability in a few seasons when we give Ribeiro 5.5-6M this summer (at least, IMO) to keep him around for a couple of years. Plus trading him now probably gives us some good pieces that can help us more in a few seasons.
This!

Draft Barkov or Monahan around 4th-5th (where I think Caps will end up)
Trade Ribs ONLY if he doesn't want to re-sign for 2-3 years so he will be off the Books when the drafted player is ready for 2C, and in that case draft a defender with that late first and try to get a C prospect that can play 3C in a few years included in the deal (i.e. Van - 1st + Gaunce). Add Chimera if needed.
Laich can act as back-up 2C if Ribeiro is traded.

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03-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #333
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I must say after watching some video on the top ranked guys last night....the big Russian Nichushkin did impress me.

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03-19-2013, 09:58 AM
  #334
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Completely understand that rational component of what you say but the emotional part of me cannot accept it. I want the Caps to win every time they play.

Act on what your rationality tells you and the emotional part will follow. Reason is the cause, emotion is the effect.

If you act on your emotions that'll lead to progressively worse emotions and total failure. Imagine Neil Armstrong trying to land the lunar module in panic-mode, "Christ!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Son of a *****! How am I gonna land this damn thing in that little...ahhhh....we're gonna crash! we're gonna die!"

No he had to keep calm, and train himself to think under that kind of stress. Then he had the happiness (an emotion) for the rest of his life that he achieved landing on the MOON and getting BACK HOME.

The Caps organization runs on fear (an emotion). We've seen the videos of McPhee and BB at the time of the Habs series. They were scared to death. And Ted got into an altercation with a fan back then because he wasn't in command of himself. He was acting on his emotions.

Of course, the players have to play with emotion...but not without thinking. All the training that goes into building skills and strategy, that's all reason. Building the team (properly) requires intense reasoning. But when you play you have to trust your subconscious and PLAY. You have to trust your skills and go all out.

Steve Biscotti, Ozzie Newsome and Co. with the Baltimore Ravens are good examples of men obsessed with winning while being smart about it.


Last edited by Atlas: 03-19-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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Old
03-19-2013, 10:27 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Act on what your rationality tells you and the emotional part will follow. Reason is the cause, emotion is the effect.

If you act on your emotions that'll lead to progressively worse emotions and total failure. Imagine Neil Armstrong trying to land the lunar module in panic-mode, "Christ!!! Ahhhhhhhhh!!!!! Son of a *****! How am I gonna land this damn thing in that little...ahhhh....we're gonna crash! we're gonna die!"

No he had to keep calm, and train himself to think under that kind of stress. Then he had the happiness (an emotion) for the rest of his life that he achieved landing on the MOON and getting BACK HOME.

The Caps organization runs on fear (an emotion). We've seen the videos of McPhee and BB at the time of the Habs series. They were scared to death. And Ted got into an altercation with a fan back then because he wasn't in command of himself. He was acting on his emotions.

Of course, the players have to play with emotion...but not without thinking. All the training that goes into building skills and strategy, that's all reason. Building the team (properly) requires intense reasoning. But when you play you have to trust your subconscious and PLAY. You have to trust your skills and go all out.

Steve Biscotti, Ozzie Newsome and Co. with the Baltimore Ravens are good examples of men obsessed with winning while being smart about it.
But again the other part of what I say may have some rational component to it.

At the time I didn't think that game 7 loss vs the Flyers in 08 was a huge deal. We would have probably gotten crushed vs Pens that year anyhow and we had a bright future ahead.

We dominated that game 7 and still lost. The lingering impact (I believe) caused us to lose confidence in those situations going forward.

Don't discount the accrued effect of losing even if does on paper help get a better draft pick or whatever.

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03-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #336
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But again the other part of what I say may have some rational component to it.

At the time I didn't think that game 7 loss vs the Flyers in 08 was a huge deal. We would have probably gotten crushed vs Pens that year anyhow and we had a bright future ahead.

We dominated that game 7 and still lost. The lingering impact (I believe) caused us to lose confidence in those situations going forward.

Don't discount the accrued effect of losing even if does on paper help get a better draft pick or whatever.

I agree with you. A losing culture has a compounding effect. A player gets used to winning and losing. You might say that you show up to the rink expecting one or the other and, in a way, it makes it so. But that culture has to be created by someone (I know you know this) and that someone--that group of someones has created a culture of losing.

But it can all be turned around if only Ted or the next owner will build a proper winning culture. Where excellence is rewarded and failure is scraped off and trashed. Losing must become unacceptable. Keeping the context that there is a salary cap and it is very very difficult to win even for the best GM's.

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03-19-2013, 10:39 AM
  #337
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I agree with you. A losing culture has a compounding effect. A player gets used to winning and losing. You might say that you show up to the rink expecting one or the other and, in a way, it makes it so. But that culture has to be created by someone (I know you know this) and that someone--that group of someones has created a culture of losing.

But it can all be turned around if only Ted or the next owner will build a proper winning culture. Where excellence is rewarded and failure is scraped off and trashed. Losing must become unacceptable. Keeping the context that there is a salary cap and it is very very difficult to win even for the best GM's.
I agree with all that. Ted needs to put his foot down and stop being so nice. GMGM doesn't seem to be getting it done. I have a feeling he is not going anywhere and will be allowed to perform yet another rebuild of the roster. I feel he is going to get an extension if anything.

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03-19-2013, 10:45 AM
  #338
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Until the fans stop accepting losing, ownership won't.

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03-19-2013, 10:47 AM
  #339
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I agree with all that. Ted needs to put his foot down and stop being so nice. GMGM doesn't seem to be getting it done. I have a feeling he is not going anywhere and will be allowed to perform yet another rebuild of the roster. I feel he is going to get an extension if anything.

Well, there you go. If that happens again then Ted is the core of the losing culture. He rewards losing.

And I don't consider that being nice at all. Rewarding incompetence is depraved. It makes many thousands of diehard Caps fans--real people, mind you--it makes them very unhappy. No, that's not what I would call nice.

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03-19-2013, 10:48 AM
  #340
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Until the fans stop accepting losing, ownership won't.
You've been on here since 02 right?

Where the heck were you back then when I was preaching about this??? Has it taken you this long to accept that?

Fact is I've learned something...getting bitter does nothing. Venting on the internet isn't going to help. Ted cares about season tickets and is fiercly loyal to McPhee and I cannot do one thing about it.

These are the cards we are dealt. Venting is fine so I'm sure that is what you are doing.

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03-19-2013, 10:54 AM
  #341
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Venting on the internet doesn't help? I am facked!

Can't any of you hackers spam Dick Patrick's mail account, program your bots and flood him with emails from "Caps" fans? dpatrick at aol.com password is probably caps or CAPS - send an email from dick to Ted. It's time for you know what.

Done.

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03-19-2013, 10:56 AM
  #342
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You've been on here since 02 right?

Where the heck were you back then when I was preaching about this??? Has it taken you this long to accept that?

Fact is I've learned something...getting bitter does nothing. Venting on the internet isn't going to help. Ted cares about season tickets and is fiercly loyal to McPhee and I cannot do one thing about it.

These are the cards we are dealt. Venting is fine so I'm sure that is what you are doing.

I've been on these boards since 02 yes. I was more patient back in the day. Now it's starting to look like we'll all die before the Caps win a Cup.

I've been up and down on McPhee over the years. Hard to ignore the good OR the bad things he's done. I'm far from bitter though. I save that feeling for the nights we lose an actual game. I'm more disgusted and heartbroken than anything as Ted lets his franchise continue to wither on the vine.

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03-19-2013, 10:58 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by CapitalsCupFantasy View Post
I've been on these boards since 02 yes. I was more patient back in the day. Now it's starting to look like we'll all die before the Caps win a Cup.

I've been up and down on McPhee over the years. Hard to ignore the good OR the bad things he's done. I'm far from bitter though. I save that feeling for the nights we lose an actual game. I'm more disgusted and heartbroken than anything as Ted lets his franchise continue to wither on the vine.
I feel your pain. There is nothing we can do about it unfortunately outside of venting on message boards. Then that loses its quelling powers over time.

We are Caps fans. The hockey gods hate us.

I just bought the Caps 10 greatest games DVD set. I will go live in the past thank you

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03-19-2013, 11:06 AM
  #344
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Venting on the internet doesn't help? I am facked!

Can't any of you hackers spam Dick Patrick's mail account, program your bots and flood him with emails from "Caps" fans? dpatrick at aol.com password is probably caps or CAPS - send an email from dick to Ted. It's time for you know what.

Done.





Yeah, I don't imagine anyone's life is actually crushed by the Caps' losing ways. If I'm ever crushed I'll find something better to be crushed by like a beautiful woman.

But still, I want the Caps to win. I want to cheer for and admire the owner and the GM, but Ted and George aren't worthy. I don't cheer for navel-gazers.

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03-19-2013, 07:17 PM
  #345
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I agree with you. A losing culture has a compounding effect. A player gets used to winning and losing. You might say that you show up to the rink expecting one or the other and, in a way, it makes it so. But that culture has to be created by someone (I know you know this) and that someone--that group of someones has created a culture of losing.

But it can all be turned around if only Ted or the next owner will build a proper winning culture. Where excellence is rewarded and failure is scraped off and trashed. Losing must become unacceptable. Keeping the context that there is a salary cap and it is very very difficult to win even for the best GM's.
I don't agree with that thought process, but for a very different reason than one might expect. I do believe losing cultures are a problem, and we should avoid creating one whenever possble. They are contagious. There's a problem though, and that's the fact that losing cultures have nothing to do with tanking for a draft pick, or a late season run, and everything to do with stability in the front office, and the presence of franchise changing personalities on the roster. The Redskins didnt change their culture with Gibbs, nor Zorn, nor robiskie, nor Zorn, nor Spurrier, nor even Shanny, the culture change required a combination of Shanny's house cleaning of the roster AND the addition of a RG3. To be sure there were other players that were important like London Fletcher, but without a linchpin leader with franchise talent, no amount of work from Shanny was going to change much. Ditto the Cavs with Lebron and without (though Irving looks like a changer), ditto the Penguins with Crosby, luck in the draft and the FO, ditto with the Nats here at home with the combo of outstanding team building from Rizzo and Kasten combined with franchise changing talents in Strass and Harper to go with vets who had a positive culture too.

Winning or not winning games late in a season has absolutely expletive all to do with team culture. As Tom Tolbert (former Warrior) mentioned years ago, "late season runs don't carry over, particularly in leagues like the NBA with long seasons. There simply is too much possibility of player turnover, too long of an offseason, and no ability to connect what happened last april, with whats going on in October/November. It just doesn't happen."

Want to fix our culture? Want to avoid transitioning into an abject losing culture? Then playing better, drafting better, and having an effective offseason is the way to do so. Winning some games in april aint going to mean anything about our culture and at the end of the day, acquiring a potential franchise player in the draft is 10,000x more valuable than winning 24 games instead of 20 this spring. Just look at my fellow redskins fans. In the fall of '11 i was having a complete meltdown over the slotting crushing victories the redskins were managing against the redskins and in a late game miracle comeback in september (i think the cardinals) during an absolutely miserable season. Redskins fans left and right were arguing that they could never root for slotting over winning on sunday, and no amount of my pointing at the packers needless season finale victory in '88 getting them Mandarich over Aikman could change their mind.

Well four months later when we traded a 2nd rounder, and 3 first rounders to move up a few slots for RG3 they were finally reevaluating just how worthwhile those handful of bizarre wins in '11 were, because at the end of the day, they cost us first rounders in 2013, and 2014, and a 2nd in '12 that could have really helped.

At the end of the day this caps team sucks. Just like the Wizards. And my interest in both cases is at another shot at a franchise/culture changing player via the draft, because april victories in a lost season, as always, don't mean squat (just remember the runs the wiz have gone on every april for 2-3 years, just how much carry over did we get from last april, to this past fall when we started 4-28? Not very much).

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03-20-2013, 08:08 AM
  #346
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You know, I could almost be on board with tanking, if it was guaranteed Pitt wouldn't have any interests at all in the weighted ping pong balling. Or, if there were no lottery.

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03-20-2013, 02:48 PM
  #347
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You know, I could almost be on board with tanking, if it was guaranteed Pitt wouldn't have any interests at all in the weighted ping pong balling. Or, if there were no lottery.
If we win the draft lottery, we get the first overall pick.

If we don't win, worst case is we get a pick 1 spot later than where we finished in the standings (ex. finish 2nd to last, pick 3rd)

Tanking is absolutely advantageous because you don't have to rely on the lottery for a top pick.... and Pittsburgh is making the playoffs so there's no chance of them picking first overall anyway

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03-21-2013, 08:00 AM
  #348
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These two games against the Jets will be telling.

If the Caps equal/split points then I think McPhee will still think we have a shot.

If the Jets out point us by 2 then I'm confident he will see the righting on the wall.

We all know McPhee WANTS to stand pat or make some minor moves to try and sneak in.

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03-21-2013, 08:12 AM
  #349
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These two games against the Jets will be telling.
If the Caps equal/split points then I think McPhee will still think we have a shot.

If the Jets out point us by 2 then I'm confident he will see the righting on the wall.

We all know McPhee WANTS to stand pat or make some minor moves to try and sneak in.
Anyone who thinks the Capitals have a shot at the playoffs is in their own imagination land at this point.

Sorry, but we can't play Florida, Buffalo, or Philly every night.

New Jersey and Tampa have the talent and drive to get back into the playoffs, the Caps do not. It's that simple.

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03-21-2013, 08:18 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by SwedeSpeedBackstrom View Post
Anyone who thinks the Capitals have a shot at the playoffs is in their own imagination land at this point.

Sorry, but we can't play Florida, Buffalo, or Philly every night.

New Jersey and Tampa have the talent and drive to get back into the playoffs, the Caps do not. It's that simple.
You know GMGM is using his imagination. They will not throw in the towel unless its BLATENTLY obvious or on the very verge of mathematical elimination.

We went on a nice run and then our D had one injury after another so its not in the cards this year and most will agree. But Ted and GMGM have their own agenda and desperately want to make the playoffs.

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