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Flames - Don't rebuild...reload

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:23 PM
  #126
Beerfish
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Sorry the Flames made the exact same error as the Oilers did and have waited too long to trade their top level assets to get prime value. You certainly don't have to tank as badly as the oilers did. (And the oilers did not do so on purpose, they really were that pure awful.) But you need assets to rebuild and Calgary's top asset values are decreasing.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:24 PM
  #127
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
In the last few years
Eberle, Pacioretty, B.Smith, Perron, Carlson, Del Zotto, Varlamov, Berglund

have all been 20+ picks, sure not Giroux good out all solid hockey players.
So what's that, 8 guys out of however many drafts x 10 players selected in the 20-30 range.

And no offense but I don't see the Flames selecting too many future stars in that range, in the last CBA worth of drafts we are talking about Matt Pelech, Leland Irving, Mikael Backlund, Greg Nemisz, Tim Erixon.. after that it's too recent to draw many conclusions but even if you got nothing but Backlund and Erixon calibre players we're not talking about the guys who are going to turn the franchise around within a couple of seasons.

Anyway my point is really just that a few extra late first rounders isn't going to remake the franchise on its own - the Flames need to seriously change the way they construct their team and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.

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02-19-2013, 01:28 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
They are all stand outs.
I think you and I are talking about two different levels of players, here.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:58 PM
  #129
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jaybo for filppula plus abdelkader?

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:07 PM
  #130
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
So what's that, 8 guys out of however many drafts x 10 players selected in the 20-30 range.

And no offense but I don't see the Flames selecting too many future stars in that range, in the last CBA worth of drafts we are talking about Matt Pelech, Leland Irving, Mikael Backlund, Greg Nemisz, Tim Erixon.. after that it's too recent to draw many conclusions but even if you got nothing but Backlund and Erixon calibre players we're not talking about the guys who are going to turn the franchise around within a couple of seasons.

Anyway my point is really just that a few extra late first rounders isn't going to remake the franchise on its own - the Flames need to seriously change the way they construct their team and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.
8 guys out of 30 so 27% of picking one really isn't that bad. I think judging this scouting staff and management based on past management and scouting is about as fair as saying that any 20-30th overall pick is a bd pick.

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02-19-2013, 02:12 PM
  #131
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
8 guys out of 30 so 27% of picking one really isn't that bad. I think judging this scouting staff and management based on past management and scouting is about as fair as saying that any 20-30th overall pick is a bd pick.
Well I never said any pick in the 20s is bad, I said there are more non impact players than there are impact players.. which you've basically acknowledged with your 27% odds.

Anyway I'm really done arguing with people who want to nitpick with my point - which is that the Flames have a few players they can deal for decent returns, but it will be a tall order to turn those decent returns into the core of a future winning team in Calgary.

There will have to be lots of other work done, it's as simple as that.

Maybe they can do it without bottoming out, it's certainly possible.. but they have no easy answers - and that includes "trade our best players for picks and prospects, ???, profit"

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:14 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
NHL fans of all stripes didn't get together behind Calgary fans backs, and hatch a plot to almost unanimously agree that Calgary has a weak/old core with a pretty poor prospect pool just to troll Calgary fans. That's just the way it is.

There is a very simple way to end this debate about the Calgary prospect pool.

This is a message board for a "hockey prospect" site... lets see what the official site says:

Calgary is ranked #23/30

TEAM DEPTH CHART OF NHL PROSPECTS
STRENGTHS

Grit and leadership
3rd/4th line forwards

WEAKNESSES
First line forward talent
Offensive Defenseman

To me this says they have very few first line forwards or first line D-men.
The very definition of a weak prospect pool.

What this means: Several years of drafting will be needed to improve the pool, this can be increased by:

1) The team finishing lower (by trading away older talented players)
2) The team acquiring more draft picks (by trading away older talented players)

Or you can simply say... who cares about the prospect pool

And just sign a few more FA's and hope the team massively improves. (This has not worked the last few years, but you never know if it will work in the future) - most hockey (non-Calgary) fans see this as a mistake.

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:17 PM
  #133
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Here is how the Flames can change the makeup of the team without doing a "scorched earth" rebuild. It only involves a few ballsy steps, and even if it doesnt succeed, they would be no worse off than they are now. It must be accepted at the start to stay somewhat competitive, but probably burn the rest of this year and next. If you need to have a "lost" season, this would be ideal. I think thats all that would be needed, but management must be willing to take a step back. Here goes:

Trade Iginla Kiprussoff and Bouwmeester in separate deals. Start the discussions now to get the bidding started. All three of these guys are what I consider "over the top" players. They aren't going to be the future of the team, but in a short playoff run, they could be the last piece a team needs. With the bidding war that would ensue,
I think the minimum we could expect would be:
Iginla - decent player, "A" level prospect (not blue chip), and a 1st.
Kipper - "A" level prospect and a 1st
Bouw - decent player, "A" level prospect and a 1st

That gives us 2 roster players, 3 good prospects, and an additional 3 1sts.

Second, you make two lists: keepers and available.

Keep - Brodie, Baertchi, Giordano, Cammalleri, Glencross, Hudler, Cervenka, Backlund, Wideman, Taylor, Ramo, Brossoit, Horak, Gaudreau, Reinhart and the 5 players acquired in the trades

You make a second list of essentially everyone else under contract in the organization. You take that and approach the Avalanche about O'Reilly (if he's still available by this point, of course). Tell them to pick any three players on the list OR any two and a draft pick. At the very least, that should get a conversation going. No one is "untouchable", but any inclusion of the players on the Keep list changes the nature of the negotiation.

On draft day, we can either go on a 1st round shopping spree, or trade them for needs of the organization, but not until we know we're not trading away Jones/Mackinnon for example.

Ice the best team you can put on the ice for the rest of this year. Put the C on Giordano, give an A to Cammalleri and Glencross. Give the team a whole 82 game schedule to gel, tinker when neccessary and I think you've constructed a rebuild that will keep you somewhat competitive, while restocking the cupboards.


" Flames - Don't rebuild...reload " Bahahahaah...


... That IS a rebuild. Overvaluing most of the players but the Flames should have started pawning off players awhile ago. Everyone over the age of 30 should be traded.

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:20 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
So what's that, 8 guys out of however many drafts x 10 players selected in the 20-30 range.

And no offense but I don't see the Flames selecting too many future stars in that range, in the last CBA worth of drafts we are talking about Matt Pelech, Leland Irving, Mikael Backlund, Greg Nemisz, Tim Erixon.. after that it's too recent to draw many conclusions but even if you got nothing but Backlund and Erixon calibre players we're not talking about the guys who are going to turn the franchise around within a couple of seasons.

Anyway my point is really just that a few extra late first rounders isn't going to remake the franchise on its own - the Flames need to seriously change the way they construct their team and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better.
Calgary's scouting department has improved a lot since the days of drafting Matt Pelech. It's fair enough for you to use an example, but it's not an accurate picture of what Calgary has been doing lately. Unless of course Jankowski completely flops, but that's still in a wait and see stage.

Tim Erixon was a good pick, and was turned into Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund. Pretty good asset management there.

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:35 PM
  #135
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by NightBlazer View Post
Calgary's scouting department has improved a lot since the days of drafting Matt Pelech. It's fair enough for you to use an example, but it's not an accurate picture of what Calgary has been doing lately. Unless of course Jankowski completely flops, but that's still in a wait and see stage.

Tim Erixon was a good pick, and was turned into Horak, Wotherspoon, and Granlund. Pretty good asset management there.
Fair enough. I don't mean this as an insult (as a Canucks fan) but I don't really pay much attention to what the Flames are doing these days although obviously I saw them take a big risk on the Jankowski pick.. could go either way of course, it's way too early to tell.

As you can see me say later in this discussion, my point is simply that if the Flames deal away guys like Iginla, Kiprusoff, etc they are going to be moving them to teams who will be returning first rounders that land in that late range where any given pick is likelier to end up as a solid player (but nothing to write home about) or worse than to end up the kind of guy who is a cornerstone for your franchise - in other words they are unlikely to get back the kinds of players who eventually replace Jarome Iginla or Miika Kiprusoff.

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02-19-2013, 03:21 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
There is a very simple way to end this debate about the Calgary prospect pool.

This is a message board for a "hockey prospect" site... lets see what the official site says:

Calgary is ranked #23/30

TEAM DEPTH CHART OF NHL PROSPECTS
STRENGTHS

Grit and leadership
3rd/4th line forwards

WEAKNESSES
First line forward talent
Offensive Defenseman

To me this says they have very few first line forwards or first line D-men.
The very definition of a weak prospect pool.

What this means: Several years of drafting will be needed to improve the pool, this can be increased by:

1) The team finishing lower (by trading away older talented players)
2) The team acquiring more draft picks (by trading away older talented players)

Or you can simply say... who cares about the prospect pool

And just sign a few more FA's and hope the team massively improves. (This has not worked the last few years, but you never know if it will work in the future) - most hockey (non-Calgary) fans see this as a mistake.

That ranking is outdated. The Flames prospect pool is contantly rising. They had several standouts at the recent WJC.

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Old
02-19-2013, 04:24 PM
  #137
Aceboogie
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Sorry the Flames made the exact same error as the Oilers did and have waited too long to trade their top level assets to get prime value. You certainly don't have to tank as badly as the oilers did. (And the oilers did not do so on purpose, they really were that pure awful.) But you need assets to rebuild and Calgary's top asset values are decreasing.
The only players the Oilers had that are comparable to the ones the Flames have are Hemsky and Penner.

They were both older (25+) and playing good hockey. Gagner was good but still young (21) Horcoff was old but had little value.

The Oilers correctly traded Penner for prospects/picks and it paid off huge.

They also could have dealt Hemsky but perhaps they felt his play would keep up in the future. And that is showing to be correct

The Oilers failure was purely for having bad players, management didnt induce it (outside of Penner)

Iginla is MUCH different because he is much older so he has less good years left

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:07 PM
  #138
BinCookin
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That ranking is outdated. The Flames prospect pool is contantly rising. They had several standouts at the recent WJC.
That may be true, but even a good WJC does not change the main thesis of those players.

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02-19-2013, 05:16 PM
  #139
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Calgary would have gotten great value for Iggy and Kipper a few years ago when it was clear that thier core wasn't good enough to win the cup.

Not so today.

Iggy will have to start producing to bring decent value. Right now he's non-physical peirmiter player who doesn't like to back check.

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02-19-2013, 05:20 PM
  #140
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I think you and I are talking about two different levels of players, here.
Smith is on a higher level than Del Zotto, Perron, Varly, and Berglund? Lmao.. No bias with this guy, has he even cracked Detroits putrid defense yet?

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02-19-2013, 05:20 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by slappipappi View Post
Calgary would have gotten great value for Iggy and Kipper a few years ago when it was clear that thier core wasn't good enough to win the cup.

Not so today.

Iggy will have to start producing to bring decent value. Right now he's non-physical peirmiter player who doesn't like to back check.
This isn't true, he hits much more now then he has ever in his career and he has been very good defensively especially on the back check.

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02-19-2013, 05:22 PM
  #142
LickTheEnvelope
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Originally Posted by MuffinMerc View Post
-Glencross won't be moved anytime soon.
-Iginla can be traded for a 1st+Good prospect(s).
-The Flames have some good prospects in Horak, Byron, Bärtschi, Bouma, and even Street. There was hardly room in the top 9, and we had Bärt forced into the fourth line. We can have a completely new core if Iginla and a few others like Stemps and Stajan are moved.

Ownership wants the team to remain competitive. So this forces Management to build through the draft. But we know the Feaster is trying to retool the team already.
Ben Street is 26 and is barely a passable AHLer... same with Byron who is 24...
Horak is maybe a decent 3rd liner if he can improve his defensive game and Bouma is a 4th liner max potential.

Bartschi is good good, but that list is pretty awful.

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02-19-2013, 05:29 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Bender View Post




Actually, it's a pretty accurate description. You can choose to believe that all of these players will turn out to be impactful NHLers but the reality is that 3 maybe 4 of those guys will make the NHL (being generous here) and likely only 1 or 2 if you're very lucky will have a big impact on your club.


You realize you just described basically every prospect pool in the league right?


Also people seem to forget teams can trade cap space now, so kipper at say 3 mil is incredible.

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02-19-2013, 05:31 PM
  #144
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Yeah they are. Calgary's prospects just go under the radar, and those are from last year's draft. You probably would have bolded Wotherspoon, Gaudreau and Granlund too, if they didn't have a good showing at the WJC's.

As for that list I think it's fair to add Ferland and Kulak to the list as well.
Reminds me of last year when I was told how amazing Reinhart, Wahl and Howse are...

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02-19-2013, 05:32 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Ben Street is 26 and is barely a passable AHLer... same with Byron who is 24...
Horak is maybe a decent 3rd liner if he can improve his defensive game and Bouma is a 4th liner max potential.

Bartschi is good good, but that list is pretty awful.
lol, Horak's defensive game is the thing that needs improving?

You've got it backwards, son.

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02-19-2013, 05:33 PM
  #146
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Reminds me of last year when I was told how amazing Reinhart, Wahl and Howse are...
I don't know of anyone that thought Wahl and Howse were good last season. Reinhart is still a very underrated prospect.

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02-19-2013, 05:35 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
Reminds me of last year when I was told how amazing Reinhart, Wahl and Howse are...
Reinhart has been very good the last month or so. He plays on a pure defensive team.

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Old
02-19-2013, 05:58 PM
  #148
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Because there's a vitriolic hatred that posters have for Calgary
No, we just tend to see the Flames for what they are, not what Flames fans claim them to be.

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Every free agent signing gets ridiculed even if it's a guy that's been one of our best players. Draft picks get ignored so that posters can say Calgary has ZERO prospects.
Dennis Wideman at over $5M SHOULD get ridiculed. Your draft picks get ridiculed due to Calgary's lacklustre at best drafting history over the last decade. Could've selected a good young player that might be 1-2 years away from the NHL last draft, you trade down to take a longshot high schooler in Mark Jankowski. Seeing Flames fans defend Feaster and that pick makes me laugh every time.

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People just do not take a logical, objective assessment when it comes to Flames. You can disagree all you want, but you're not going to convince a single Flames fan that that's not the case.
Most people here have an objective view towards the Flames. It's when those views are negative (and rightly so given the state of the franchise) that your fanbase cries foul thinking that your team is actually one that we should be praising, which is hardly the case.

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As for scouts and analysts, I hear them say all the time that Calgary's prospect pool has made big improvements and is trending upwards.
Like who? The idiots on Sportsnet like Roger Millions don't count, by the way.

It breaks down like this.

Flames fans: Our team is still competitive and has a good prospect pool.
29 other fanbases: lol that's not true in either case.

Who's more likely to be incorrect?

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02-19-2013, 06:11 PM
  #149
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Flames fans: Our team is still competitive and has a good prospect pool.
29 other fanbases: lol that's not true in either case.

Who's more likely to be incorrect?
Given that the Flames have had 90 points or more since 02-03 you are at least wrong on the first point.

The prospect pool can be debated all day.

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02-19-2013, 06:28 PM
  #150
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Smith is on a higher level than Del Zotto, Perron, Varly, and Berglund? Lmao.. No bias with this guy, has he even cracked Detroits putrid defense yet?
Yes, and he was playing the toughest minutes out of anyone before he hurt his shoulder. Maybe try keeping up with current events.

By the way, I was going more based off Smith's projection. Take a chill pill.

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