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+/- Per 60 Minutes at 5on5 - The Awful Truth

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Old
02-18-2013, 08:58 PM
  #26
FlashyG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
Quincey has 0 g 0 a and 0 pts in 15 games. I'd say he has pretty much zero to do with this team scoring when he is on the ice.
I agree with you that Quincey isn't a major factor in the Wings offensive #'s when he's on the ice, but I think he is better than he gets credit for at moving the puck out of our defensive zone so our offensive players can do their job.

Just comparing the goals for vs against with him and Kronwall is a pretty stark comparison. Same goes for Kindl, I don't think there is any reason either should be sitting at this point.

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02-18-2013, 09:08 PM
  #27
Kronwalled55
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Just to make matters worse; Kronwall is almost always out there with a top 5/10 Selke candidate in Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg too.

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02-18-2013, 09:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
Just to make matters worse; Kronwall is almost always out there with a top 5/10 Selke candidate in Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg too.
Ehh that Zetterberg line has been pretty errible defensively. Brunner still needs to learn (basically everything), Z isn't as great as he once was, and the other winger be it Franzen or Sammy or Cleary is mediocre at best.

Datsyuks line has been fine though.

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02-18-2013, 09:33 PM
  #29
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Lashoff had a few good games in the beginning but has really tailed off. He's not better than Kindl or Huskins and this point and those 2 are taking turns in the press box while Lashoff plays on the top pair.

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02-18-2013, 09:42 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
Just to make matters worse; Kronwall is almost always out there with a top 5/10 Selke candidate in Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg too.
Kronwall has among the lowest quality of teammates numbers on the team.

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02-18-2013, 09:49 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...9+11+13+15+17#

Kronwall's top linemates:
1) Lashoff 2) Zetterberg 3) Brunner 4) Datsyuk 5) Franzen

Maybe Kronwall is making them look like low quality teammates

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02-18-2013, 09:51 PM
  #32
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I'm not a fan of corsi/advanced stats at all. Guess I'm old-school.

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02-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Maybe you can explain this to me, because I can't seem to find the information on Behindthenet.ca's site, but what determines the "quality" of a teammate/opponent to them?

Is it their corsi rating? their +/-? Their # of pts scored, line designation etc?

Because if they are using Corsi or +/- then the player in question's bad play would bring down the #'s of any teammates playing with him influencing the stat to the point where it would be essentially useless.

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Old
02-18-2013, 09:55 PM
  #34
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I agree that Kindl should be playing, hes actually looked pretty good this year and seems to be a guy who thrives on high confidence (scratching will affect this)

I disagree that these stats are the reason why, doesnt account for a lot of variables. Play Kronwall in Kindls minutes and I guarantee his number would be twice that

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02-18-2013, 09:56 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Maybe you can explain this to me, because I can't seem to find the information on Behindthenet.ca's site, but what determines the "quality" of a teammate/opponent to them?

Is it their corsi rating? their +/-? Their # of pts scored, line designation etc?

Because if they are using Corsi or +/- then the player in question's bad play would bring down the #'s of any teammates playing with him influencing the stat to the point where it would be essentially useless.
I think it says right on the link.

Corsi Quality of Teammates= Average Corsi of Teammates, weighted by ice time together.

Not like I know what the **** that means.

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:05 PM
  #36
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Bottom line, and all arguments asside. Our team defense from top to bottom is very sub par, our power pla is atrocious and our penalty kill is far from what it should be.. Until those 3 things are corrected. We are doomed to have many many more frustrating nights watching this team tread water.

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02-18-2013, 10:07 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
I agree that Kindl should be playing, hes actually looked pretty good this year and seems to be a guy who thrives on high confidence (scratching will affect this)

I disagree that these stats are the reason why, doesnt account for a lot of variables. Play Kronwall in Kindls minutes and I guarantee his number would be twice that
LOL
Stupid guarantee to make

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:43 PM
  #38
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Well, when you have six #6 defensemen, the two guys playing against the opposition's best are going to look really really bad and they guys playing against the other team's worst line might look competent.

But I get what you are saying. Some guys are doing their job and some aren't.

Many moons ago I put similar numbers together with charts and graphs and everything to prove Lebda was better than Kronwall. Ah, the heady days of yore...

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Old
02-18-2013, 10:54 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Maybe you can explain this to me, because I can't seem to find the information on Behindthenet.ca's site, but what determines the "quality" of a teammate/opponent to them?

Is it their corsi rating? their +/-? Their # of pts scored, line designation etc?

Because if they are using Corsi or +/- then the player in question's bad play would bring down the #'s of any teammates playing with him influencing the stat to the point where it would be essentially useless.

The corsi number is (shots on target for + missed shots for + blocked shots against ) - (shots on target against + missed shots against + blocked shots for)

it rewards you for being on the ice, being in the offensive zone, and being effective enough to get a shot off. It penalizes you for being in your own zone and letting the other team take shots. Of course, the best teams will typically have the players with the best corsi numbers.

The relative corsi # tries to compensate for that. It takes the players corsi number and subtracts the team's corsi # for when that player is not on the ice. If you have a +3, it means your team takes 3 more shots with you on the ice than with you off of it. If you have a -3, it means your team takes three less shots with you on the ice than with your off it.

What I take from it is that Kindl is sheltered a bit and Kronwall is overwhelmed a bit. Kindl is routinely put out there against guys who don't spend a lot of time in the offensive zone, while Kronwall is out there against guys who tend to carry more of the play offensively. To Kindl's credit, he's taking advantage of the match-ups.

edit: I should mention that they also have corsi numbers that take into account what zone a player starts in(offensive, defensive, neutral), but I just sort of lose interest in the number crunching at that point.

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:02 PM
  #40
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These numbers aren't about guys not doing their job.
These numbers are about guys ******** the bed

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02-18-2013, 11:06 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
The corsi number is (shots on target for + missed shots for + blocked shots against ) - (shots on target against + missed shots against + blocked shots for)

it rewards you for being on the ice, being in the offensive zone, and being effective enough to get a shot off. It penalizes you for being in your own zone and letting the other team take shots. Of course, the best teams will typically have the players with the best corsi numbers.

The relative corsi # tries to compensate for that. It takes the players corsi number and subtracts the team's corsi # for when that player is not on the ice. If you have a +3, it means your team takes 3 more shots with you on the ice than with you off of it. If you have a -3, it means your team takes three less shots with you on the ice than with your off it.

What I take from it is that Kindl is sheltered a bit and Kronwall is overwhelmed a bit. Kindl is routinely put out there against guys who don't spend a lot of time in the offensive zone, while Kronwall is out there against guys who tend to carry more of the play offensively. To Kindl's credit, he's taking advantage of the match-ups.

edit: I should mention that they also have corsi numbers that take into account what zone a player starts in(offensive, defensive, neutral), but I just sort of lose interest in the number crunching at that point.
Kindl, mostly playing with Miller, Abdelakder and the like, is drastically out playing other team's third and fourth line .. and somehow even though Miller and Abs aren't scoring worth crap, the team is scoring goals with Kindl out there.

I think what this comes down to is Mike Babcock getting backed into a corner and choosing the "type" of hockey player he likes.
Babcock has never been a puck possession guy. So when he's "taking on water" he thinks his no-skill, off-the-glass-and-out guys are going to bail him out.

But the types of guys Babcock has (Lashoff and Huskins) can't play worth a damn. So Babcock is making a bad problem worse

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Old
02-18-2013, 11:34 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Kindl, mostly playing with Miller, Abdelakder and the like, is drastically out playing other team's third and fourth line .. and somehow even though Miller and Abs aren't scoring worth crap, the team is scoring goals with Kindl out there.

I think what this comes down to is Mike Babcock getting backed into a corner and choosing the "type" of hockey player he likes.
Babcock has never been a puck possession guy. So when he's "taking on water" he thinks his no-skill, off-the-glass-and-out guys are going to bail him out.

But the types of guys Babcock has (Lashoff and Huskins) can't play worth a damn. So Babcock is making a bad problem worse
Which is pretty much what I said. Kindl's out there against lesser players and, to his credit, he's taking advantage of it. That's entirely to his credit. But since he's out there against guys who don't spend a lot of time in the offensive zone, he should put up some points and look good on most nights.

And I don't necessarily disagree that Babcock's preferred hockey style clashes a bit with what we have come to expect of the Wings. It's something that's been pointed out before, and how the team has slowly transitioned away from being a skill team since the cup win. Even with Hossa, Babcock pushed the "dump it to the net and grind it out" thing.

At the same time, Holland needs to just give him more skill and remove some of those other options.

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02-18-2013, 11:50 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
LOL
Stupid guarantee to make
Its stupid to think a guy who is scratched a bit, doesnt get trusted on the PK and plays sheltered minutes could do the same as a guy playing 24 minutes a night against top lines.

Agree Kindls playing well but this just shows hes doing well in his sheltered mins which I agree with

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Old
02-19-2013, 12:36 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Which is pretty much what I said. Kindl's out there against lesser players and, to his credit, he's taking advantage of it. That's entirely to his credit. But since he's out there against guys who don't spend a lot of time in the offensive zone, he should put up some points and look good on most nights.

And I don't necessarily disagree that Babcock's preferred hockey style clashes a bit with what we have come to expect of the Wings. It's something that's been pointed out before, and how the team has slowly transitioned away from being a skill team since the cup win. Even with Hossa, Babcock pushed the "dump it to the net and grind it out" thing.

At the same time, Holland needs to just give him more skill and remove some of those other options.
I understand that Kindl faces lesser opponents (when Babcock gets his matchup). But he's doing so with lesser linemates.

If I'm a defenseman, I'll take the harder opponents if it means I get Zetterberg and Datsyuk as my linemates.

And that's what you guys continue to overlook.

Having Z and Datsyuk actually makes life easier on defensemen, even if you face tougher competition.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:26 AM
  #45
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Looks like Kindl will sit again today? I would put him back in. The last loss was not fortuitous, why does Babcock try the same thing on D while juggling the forwards? It's strange to rise Huskins back out of nowhere and looking at our top pairing I cringe. White and Ericsson deserve more minutes, IMO.

The dilemma is that Kindl is doing just ok. Good plays but also blunders like all our D. Him, Lashoff, and Huskins are pretty close by my estimation, even if Kindl's +/- is better. It's a near wash and should not make or break us when we're already broke.

That said I agree with 90% of the board that I would rather Kindl be in. He shows flashes of genius and amazing strength. I feel a touch more confident when he's in, because I know he cares. I hope it doesn't take losing more game before he's given another shot.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:42 AM
  #46
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Kindl has played well when in the lineup for two seasons now. This doesn't surprise me, he should be getting more ice time and be far away from the press box.

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Old
02-19-2013, 03:19 AM
  #47
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Don't think we need any type of stats to see that Kronwall has been bad defensively. You can sugarcoat some things like QoC, QoT etc. but at the end of the day he's made a lot of really poor plays completely on his own.

I want to see Kindl in. Until we are healthy. Lashoff can't go on the adrenaline of playing in the NHL anymore and is being overwhelmed. He may be something more than Kindl to this team going forward but for now he's better served with the Griffins.

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Old
02-19-2013, 03:41 AM
  #48
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We shouldnt read to much into that stats, but shouldnt ignore them either. I think Quincey is indeed playing much better defensivly than he did last season. And also Kindl had a propably some of his best games we have ever seen from him so far.

Babcock however wasnt happy with his positioning at the goal against vs Anaheim and therefore benched him against the wild.

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02-19-2013, 03:57 AM
  #49
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Babcock however wasnt happy with his positioning at the goal against vs Anaheim and therefore benched him against the wild.
That's the frustrating part to me; consistency... And I say that in regards to Babcock.

If Babcock benched every defenceman who was out of position for a goal, every single one of them would have been benched by now..

Now obviously proven vets are likely to get a longer leash than a guy like Kindl, but what I don't get is how he benches Kindl so quickly when Lashoff has made positional mistakes that have led to goals as well. And I don't remember Lashoff making a play like Kindl made to Andersson in that very same game

I think once a player becomes one of his favorites, he has a hard time being consistent. Likewise, when he doesn't like a player, they don't always seem to get a fair deal.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:45 AM
  #50
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Kronwall and Cleary for Jay Bo.

I'd lay off Kenny until the off season if he did this.

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