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Toronto-Colorado (yes o'reilly)

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Old
02-21-2013, 02:40 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Take out Rielly, put in Gardiner and then Toronto is listening.
I am fine with either Rielly/Gardiner going the other way. They are interchangeable for me

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02-21-2013, 02:40 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Lets be honest, if were including players like Bozak/MacArthur/Liles etc were not going to get anywhere in these discussions.

Its going to have to be Rielly/Gardiner/1st/Kadri type pieces to give COlorado any incentive.
I've said long before, this trade makes no sense for either the Leafs or the Avalanche, especially for the Leafs.

Now maybe if you move Bozak and a little more, or Grabovski and a little more or Gardiner and maybe a little more, or Kadri and maybe a little more, then it might have a shot. But more than 'a little more' is too much for the Leafs to be giving up. It does nothing to address or meet long-term organizational asset needs down the road for the Leafs, except set it back again. And, we've had plenty of chances to do that in the past.

ROR just isn't that much of an upgrade over what's already there for the Leafs. Perhaps, you can arguably make a case that he's a slightly better player than Grabovski and Bozak, and maybe Kadri or Gardiner...it's not exactly the difference between another car vs. having a jet.

The price the Avalanche seems to be seeking is steeper than it should be.

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02-21-2013, 02:41 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Did a Colorado fan just make a pretend Leafs account to post this?

Rielly >>> Barrie

Kadri has probably been our best player this year and ROR is an RFA holding out.

No chance Toronto does this deal, even if Colorado put their 1st in.
ROR > Rielly
Barrie < Kadri

Being an RFA holding out doesn't effect his impressive resume for a young kid.

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02-21-2013, 02:41 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I am fine with either Rielly/Gardiner going the other way. They are interchangeable for me
Not if you want to build a winner. Both guys could potentially be huge difference makers playing on different line pairings.

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02-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Not if you want to build a winner. Both guys could potentially be huge difference makers playing on different line pairings.
And ROR could give us a #1 center that we need.

Toronto is deep at defence, so why not address weaknesses by dealing from our strength?

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02-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I would be fine with one of Reilly/Gardiner.

But I still see ROR > Gardiner/Rielly. (hence the Barrie/Kadri inclusion).

In all fairness I would rather see an offer sheet, but GM's are too scared apparently.
I think is more O'Reilly not willing to accept offer sheets more than GMS being afraid to send them.

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02-21-2013, 02:42 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I agree. I don't think Colorado would want the 1st though, since that's something that could take 2-5 years to start showing results, and given the short season and where the Leafs are right now the 1st has less value than it did at the start of the season. And I don't think Toronto would offer Rielly or Kadri.

In a ROR to Toronto deal, Gardiner as the centrepiece is the only thing that makes sense for both sides IMO. And then it should be Gardiner +.
This is pretty much how I see it well.

Possibility of a trade between these two teams depends on how each side views Gardiner IMO

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02-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
I think is more O'Reilly not willing to accept offer sheets more than GMS being afraid to send them.
Fair enough, I've always seen fans propose "lets offer sheet player-x 2 million!!" without thinking "I wonder if player x would sign for that much"

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02-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
ROR > Rielly

So, ROR is more than Rielly how? Because Rielly hasn't played a single pro-game yet? Are you out of your mind?

Since when do you give up a lottery pick who hasn't even show an organization what he has to give just yet for a guy who's nothing really than a 2nd/3rd line tweener?

Rielly has the potential to be a #1 pairing defenseman. Guys like that don't grow on trees.

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02-21-2013, 02:44 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
And ROR could give us a #1 center that we need.

Toronto is deep at defence, so why not address weaknesses by dealing from our strength?
Not if dealing our strength makes it our weakness.

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02-21-2013, 02:46 PM
  #286
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I can't imagine Toronto moving both Rielly and Kadri in a single deal just as I don't see colorado moving both ROR and Barrie together.

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02-21-2013, 02:46 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
And ROR could give us a #1 center that we need.

Toronto is deep at defence, so why not address weaknesses by dealing from our strength?
ROR is not a #1 center. Period.

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02-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
As I have asked repeatedly in this thread, show me another 20 year old who has scored 55 points and was top 15 in Selke voting. Until you find another one, he's worth whatever the Avs are asking for him.
Ryan O'Reilly is no Sergei Fedorov.

Here's a great comparison. Fedorov was already putting up crazy offensive numbers and was the best two way player in the league in his early 20s. Was the runner-up for the Selke at 22 while putting up 86 points. Im sure he received votes at 21 as well when he put up 77 points.

A guy like Fedorov compares much more favorably to a young Joe Thornton when it comes to value.

If O'Reilly were sitting as the runner up last year at 21, not 20 btw, and put up 65 points, you'd have a legitimate argument. To sit here and suggest being in the top 15 in the voting constitutes anything except he's a pretty good defensive center, is pushing the envelope.

And before anyone suggests Fedorov was a #1 or #2 center, just look at what centers were on that team and what their roles were.

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02-21-2013, 02:47 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Not if dealing our strength makes it our weakness.
You don't deal guys like Gardiner or Rielly for a player like ROR. If you do deal them, you save them for a legitimate #1 center.

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02-21-2013, 02:49 PM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
I've said long before, this trade makes no sense for either the Leafs or the Avalanche, especially for the Leafs.

Now maybe if you move Bozak and a little more, or Grabovski and a little more or Gardiner and maybe a little more, or Kadri and maybe a little more, then it might have a shot. But more than 'a little more' is too much for the Leafs to be giving up. It does nothing to address or meet long-term organizational asset needs down the road for the Leafs, except set it back again. And, we've had plenty of chances to do that in the past.

ROR just isn't that much of an upgrade over what's already there for the Leafs. Perhaps, you can arguably make a case that he's a slightly better player than Grabovski and Bozak, and maybe Kadri or Gardiner...it's not exactly the difference between another car vs. having a jet.

The price the Avalanche seems to be seeking is steeper than it should be.
Well not really, I think most Avs fans(at least me) would actually be ok with a Gardiner+ for ROR deal. And the + doesn't have to be anything huge, a 2nd round pick or UFA to be Bozak would do the trick IMO.

However, I think the difference in Oreillys true value compared to his perceived value one HF boards is that so many people here tend to only look at the stats. They look at ROR and see a 26 Point season, another 26 point season, and then a 55 points season. So people think, ok the guy established himself as a 2C last year, and he's still young. But what everyone doesn't see(and this includes even those who watch some of his games, including some of us Avs fans) is the plays that he makes without the puck. The defense that he brings, the ability to read a play and break it up before it happens, and his ability to make the players around him better. We also don't see the hardwork he puts into the game off the ice. The fact that he runs the entire pepsi centre after every loss, or that he works harder then anyone else everyday to improve his weaknesses. These are the things that us on HF boards don't see, that the scouts and management of the Avs have seen. And because of this they have a better understanding of how valuable ROR is to a team, and is why they seem to have a stiff asking price.


Because I would normally tend to agree, that for a 55 Point 2 way center who hasn't been projected to become much more of a goal scorer or point producer, the Avs seem to be asking for a bit much. But when you factor in everything else ROR brings to a team, its justifiable.

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02-21-2013, 02:49 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Ryan O'Reilly is no Sergei Fedorov.

Here's a great comparison. Fedorov was already putting up crazy offensive numbers and was the best two way player in the league in his early 20s. Was the runner-up for the Selke at 22 while putting up 86 points. Im sure he received votes at 21 as well when he put up 77 points.

A guy like Fedorov compares much more favorably to a young Joe Thornton when it comes to value.

If O'Reilly were sitting as the runner up last year at 21, not 20 btw, and put up 65 points, you'd have a legitimate argument. To sit here and suggest being in the top 15 in the voting constitutes anything except he's a pretty good defensive center, is pushing the envelope.

And before anyone suggests Fedorov was a #1 or #2 center, just look at what centers were on that team and what their roles were.
15 in Selke trophy voting isn't really all that noteworthy. If he was a top 5 finalist, maybe. 40-60 points from a guy playing mostly as a 2nd line center is to be expected in today's NHL. ROR finished with 55.

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02-21-2013, 02:52 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Let's see him put up 50 points playing in a borderline 2nd mostly 3rd line role, for 3 straight consecutive seasons and remain in the top 15 Selke trophy voting, and then talk about his worth again, deal?
26 points playing 16 minutes a night with guys like Brandon Yip as line mates as an 18 year old. Led the team in PK minutes, and takeaways.

26 points playing 16 minutes a night with Daniel Winnik as a linemate as a 19 year old. 3rd in PK minutes behind McClement and Winnik. Led the team in takeaways.

55 points playing 19:30 per night with Landeskog as a 20 year old. 3rd in PK minutes behind McClement and Winnik. 1st in PP time, on the team with the fewest power plays in the NHL since the 1979-80 season. Led the league in takeaways.

If he signs and continues at this pace, that 3rd 50+ point season will likely be his first Selke finalist (maybe winning) season, and then the price will increase significantly.

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02-21-2013, 02:53 PM
  #293
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I would expect Gardiner + one of a good bottom 6 forward/a non-Kadri forward prospect from the Avs perspective.

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02-21-2013, 02:55 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Not if dealing our strength makes it our weakness.
What would you prefer going forward?

1
Phaneuf, Rielly, Gardiner, Liles, Gunnarson, Franson, Finn

Grabovski, Bozak, McClement

or

2
Phaneuf, Rielly, Gunnarson, Liles, Franson, Finn

O'Reilly, Grabovski, Bozak, McClement


One of these looks like a team with strong defense and a good group of centers.

One of these looks like a team with a very strong defense and a terrible group of centers.

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02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
ROR is not a #1 center. Period.
Im sure Av's fans would tell you Gardiner/Rielly aren't #1 d-men.

I think most hockey minds will tell you that ROR is a safe bet to be a #1 center, (much like Gardiner/Rielly should be top pairing guys).

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02-21-2013, 02:57 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Well not really, I think most Avs fans(at least me) would actually be ok with a Gardiner+ for ROR deal. And the + doesn't have to be anything huge, a 2nd round pick or UFA to be Bozak would do the trick IMO.

However, I think the difference in Oreillys true value compared to his perceived value one HF boards is that so many people here tend to only look at the stats. They look at ROR and see a 26 Point season, another 26 point season, and then a 55 points season. So people think, ok the guy established himself as a 2C last year, and he's still young. But what everyone doesn't see(and this includes even those who watch some of his games, including some of us Avs fans) is the plays that he makes without the puck. The defense that he brings, the ability to read a play and break it up before it happens, and his ability to make the players around him better. We also don't see the hardwork he puts into the game off the ice. The fact that he runs the entire pepsi centre after every loss, or that he works harder then anyone else everyday to improve his weaknesses. These are the things that us on HF boards don't see, that the scouts and management of the Avs have seen. And because of this they have a better understanding of how valuable ROR is to a team, and is why they seem to have a stiff asking price.


Because I would normally tend to agree, that for a 55 Point 2 way center who hasn't been projected to become much more of a goal scorer or point producer, the Avs seem to be asking for a bit much. But when you factor in everything else ROR brings to a team, its justifiable.
Why would Toronto give up a promising young puck moving defenseman and a player nearly comparable to ROR(Bozak) just for ROR? That's giving up too much.

If you want Tim Connolly, Liles, Komisarek, or MacArthur going along with him, then it would be considering. But Gardiner or Rielly plus Bozak, Grabovski or Kadri is just suicidally dumb for the Leafs.

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02-21-2013, 02:58 PM
  #297
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
26 points playing 16 minutes a night with guys like Brandon Yip as line mates as an 18 year old. Led the team in PK minutes, and takeaways.

26 points playing 16 minutes a night with Daniel Winnik as a linemate as a 19 year old. 3rd in PK minutes behind McClement and Winnik. Led the team in takeaways.

55 points playing 19:30 per night with Landeskog as a 20 year old. 3rd in PK minutes behind McClement and Winnik. 1st in PP time, on the team with the fewest power plays in the NHL since the 1979-80 season. Led the league in takeaways.

If he signs and continues at this pace, that 3rd 50+ point season will likely be his first Selke finalist (maybe winning) season, and then the price will increase significantly.
Increase to what? Seems like its pretty high already.

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02-21-2013, 03:00 PM
  #298
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
I am fine with either Rielly/Gardiner going the other way. They are interchangeable for me
Gardiner is somewhat of a better known quantity. He looks like he's likely to be a ~#3 Dman, maybe a secondary top pairing guy (#2).

Rielly on the other hand? He's 4 years younger and was just drafted top 5, is having a pretty solid year on a bad team post-draft year. He's hard to predict, but out of the two he has the better chance at becoming a legitimate #1 D. With Gardiner, I would say it's very very unlikely. With Rielly, I would say it's reasonably likely, though also reasonably likely that he becomes a #2-4 guy.

I really like ROR, I think he's got a decent shot at becoming a ~65-70 point Selke/borderline Selke calibre of player, but I wouldn't move Rielly for him.

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02-21-2013, 03:01 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
To sit here and suggest being in the top 15 in the voting constitutes anything except he's a pretty good defensive center, is pushing the envelope.
Well it means he was a better defensive player than 237 other centers (yes I was lazy and included guy who played only 1 game, but you get the point)


And even if he finished top-15 in selke votes, hes still a 21 year old kid. I don't think theres any reason he can't have a Mike Richards/Ryan Kesler-esque defensive game.

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02-21-2013, 03:01 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
15 in Selke trophy voting isn't really all that noteworthy. If he was a top 5 finalist, maybe. 40-60 points from a guy playing mostly as a 2nd line center is to be expected in today's NHL. ROR finished with 55.
Exactly... And Im in no means suggesting he isnt a really good player with a great NHL future. It's just some of these proposals are crazy in comparison to what other guys fetched.

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