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Toronto-Colorado (yes o'reilly)

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02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #301
avsfan89
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I remember when Leafs fans said Luke Schenn was untouchable. Rielly is a blue chip prospect but jesus talk about thinking he is the 2nd coming. He wouldn't even get top 4 minutes for the next few years. O'Reilly could help you NOW. It's a deep draft this year too you could always draft a defenseman like Ryan Pulock or Seth Jones if you fall off the wagon again like last season.

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02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
  #302
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Im sure Av's fans would tell you Gardiner/Rielly aren't #1 d-men.


Sure. That's why Rielly was just named WHL player of the week...it was a fluke. And why Garinder was second on Leafs D scoring while playing primarily as a 2nd pairing defenseman.

Rielly is projected as a top pairing defenseman, and Gardiner played most of last year as a 2nd pairing defenseman, while coming in 2nd in Leafs D scoring.

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I think most hockey minds will tell you that ROR is a safe bet to be a #1 center, (much like Gardiner/Rielly should be top pairing guys).
Yeah, and most fantasy minds will tell you that Dragons and Unicorns are real too.

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02-21-2013, 02:03 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by avsfan89 View Post
I remember when Leafs fans said Luke Schenn was untouchable. Rielly is a blue chip prospect but jesus talk about thinking he is the 2nd coming. He wouldn't even get top 4 minutes for the next few years. O'Reilly could help you NOW. It's a deep draft this year too you could always draft a defenseman like Ryan Pulock or Seth Jones if you fall off the wagon again like last season.
Luke Schenn was never a great skater or had much offensive upside. Rielly and Gardiner are completely different players.

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02-21-2013, 02:04 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post

I really like ROR, I think he's got a decent shot at becoming a ~65-70 point Selke/borderline Selke calibre of player, but I wouldn't move Rielly for him.
Fair enough (regarding Rielly/Gardiner). I prefer Rielly to Gardiner as well, but I would be willing to put either on the table for ROR.

I really think he has the tools to be a Ryan Kesler caliber player, and one of those forwards who can put the team on his back.

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02-21-2013, 02:05 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
Exactly... And Im in no means suggesting he isnt a really good player with a great NHL future. It's just some of these proposals are crazy in comparison to what other guys fetched.
Yup. ROR is a decent player, a complimentary player who's a good depth player to have. But he is not a 1st line center.

And, if he was worth the value people are cracking him up to be, he would have been dealt by now.

Young 1st line centers don't stay on the market long, especially when other teams are trying to move them. ROR is not a 1st line center.

If this was Matt Duchene instead of ROR, the values being asked would be much more reasonable.

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02-21-2013, 02:06 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
and a player nearly comparable to ROR(Bozak) just for ROR? That's giving up too much.
Wait... wha..?

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02-21-2013, 02:07 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Luke Schenn was never a great skater or had much offensive upside. Rielly and Gardiner are completely different players.
it doesn't matter. He was supposed to be that No.1 Shutdown dman that lead your team to the playoffs in years to come. At the draft even TSN were saying the Rebuild was rocking with that pick.

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02-21-2013, 02:07 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avsfan89 View Post
I remember when Leafs fans said Luke Schenn was untouchable. Rielly is a blue chip prospect but jesus talk about thinking he is the 2nd coming. He wouldn't even get top 4 minutes for the next few years. O'Reilly could help you NOW. It's a deep draft this year too you could always draft a defenseman like Ryan Pulock or Seth Jones if you fall off the wagon again like last season.
Brian Burke is that you? I could of sworn you had this same kind of speech when trading for Kessel.

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02-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #309
Pierce Hawthorne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Why would Toronto give up a promising young puck moving defenseman and a player nearly comparable to ROR(Bozak) just for ROR? That's giving up too much.

If you want Tim Connolly, Liles, Komisarek, or MacArthur going along with him, then it would be considering. But Gardiner or Rielly plus Bozak, Grabovski or Kadri is just suicidally dumb for the Leafs.
Bozak, Grabovski, and Kadri are not of the same value. Grabs and Kadri both hold a fair amount more.

Bozak is an upcoming UFA, he's valued as a rental right now, that hurts his value enough that it makes it fair IMO to add him to Gardiner.

Avs could possibly add a 3rd or something, but Gardiner + Bozak for ROR is close, and in fact was proposed by a few Leafs fans over the course of these discussions.

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02-21-2013, 02:09 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Sure. That's why Rielly was just named WHL player of the week...it was a fluke. And why Garinder was second on Leafs D scoring while playing primarily as a 2nd pairing defenseman.

Rielly is projected as a top pairing defenseman, and Gardiner played most of last year as a 2nd pairing defenseman, while coming in 2nd in Leafs D scoring.



Yeah, and most fantasy minds will tell you that Dragons and Unicorns are real too.
I think Reilly/Gardiner have 1st pairing written all over them.

But you discounting ROR's value is like AV's fans saying "they will be top-4 guys at best"

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02-21-2013, 02:09 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
Brian Burke is that you? I could of sworn you had this same kind of speech when trading for Kessel.
A two-way forward with a high ceiling is different than a high scoring winger. Championships are built from the middle-down. Plus if I was Burke I wouldn't have the 1st round pick but I stated that you would still have yours!

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02-21-2013, 02:11 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by avsfan89 View Post
it doesn't matter. He was supposed to be that No.1 Shutdown dman that lead your team to the playoffs in years to come. At the draft even TSN were saying the Rebuild was rocking with that pick.
I guess Luke Schenn had to settle for being the number one shutdown dman for Philly

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02-21-2013, 02:14 PM
  #313
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by Avsare1 View Post
Bozak, Grabovski, and Kadri are not of the same value. Grabs and Kadri both hold a fair amount more.

Bozak is an upcoming UFA, he's valued as a rental right now, that hurts his value enough that it makes it fair IMO to add him to Gardiner.

Avs could possibly add a 3rd or something, but Gardiner + Bozak for ROR is close, and in fact was proposed by a few Leafs fans over the course of these discussions.
Bozak will not be a rental if he's traded to Denver, let's be honest.

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02-21-2013, 02:14 PM
  #314
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Bozak+2nd is as far as I'll go

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02-21-2013, 02:14 PM
  #315
Ho Borvat
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Yup. ROR is a decent player, a complimentary player who's a good depth player to have. But he is not a 1st line center.

And, if he was worth the value people are cracking him up to be, he would have been dealt by now.

Young 1st line centers don't stay on the market long, especially when other teams are trying to move them. ROR is not a 1st line center.

If this was Matt Duchene instead of ROR, the values being asked would be much more reasonable.
Theres a good crowd of people who think ROR > Duchene
And for a lot of people its a toss up

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02-21-2013, 02:17 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by hlaverty06 View Post
Bozak+2nd is as far as I'll go
But then we have nothing left to trade for Luongo

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02-21-2013, 02:17 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by avsfan89 View Post
A two-way forward with a high ceiling is different than a high scoring winger. Championships are built from the middle-down. Plus if I was Burke I wouldn't have the 1st round pick but I stated that you would still have yours!
And despite Kessel being a top 10 scorer in the league and one of the deadliest snipers in the game today who won that trade? Toronto or Boston? O'Reilly would have huge expectations to fill and even if he has the same amount of success as Kessel, he'd prolly still get ridiculed. After all, its not like Colorado was that successful with him in the lineup.

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02-21-2013, 02:18 PM
  #318
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Wait... wha..?
ROR: two 26 point seasons, and one 55 point season.
Bozak: 27 point season, 32 point season, 47 point season.

On a side note, Bozak also played in less games than ROR did in years 1 and 3.

Yes, Gardiner/Rielly and Bozak/Grabovski or Kadri is giving up too much, and poor asset management.

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02-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by JMP View Post
Top 5 two-way center in the league along with the bidding war that's going on right now expect to see a massive overpayment for the guy, sorry it's just the way it is.
top-5? did i read that right? Maybe top-5 within the NW division

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02-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #320
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
And despite Kessel being a top 10 scorer in the league and one of the deadliest snipers in the game today who won that trade? Toronto or Boston? O'Reilly would have huge expectations to fill and even if he has the same amount of success as Kessel, he'd prolly still get ridiculed. After all, its not like Colorado was that successful with him in the lineup.
I've long contended that Kessel creates most of his own offense. He's had chemistry with guys like Lupul(playmaking winger) and Kulemin(powerforward winger), but everyone else who tries to play with him struggles. Bozak mainly hangs back picking up the defensive slack, and is kind of a grinder doing a lot of what he does away from the camera. But it's not very often he's the one actually setting up Kessel.

ROR wouldn't be a huge upgrade over Bozak...it's just the truth. I say, if you move Bozak and add ROR, you disrupt Kessel's chemistry with Bozak, since they are such strong friends. By moving Bozak, you pretty much are tipping your hat that you are also planning on flipping Kessel as well.

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02-21-2013, 02:22 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Sure. That's why Rielly was just named WHL player of the week...it was a fluke. And why Garinder was second on Leafs D scoring while playing primarily as a 2nd pairing defenseman.

Rielly is projected as a top pairing defenseman, and Gardiner played most of last year as a 2nd pairing defenseman, while coming in 2nd in Leafs D scoring.



Yeah, and most fantasy minds will tell you that Dragons and Unicorns are real too.
Avs 7th round pick Colin Smith has been WHL player of the week 3 times this season. If that's your argument for Reilly being a 1st pairing D in the NHL, then what should we expect from Smith?

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02-21-2013, 02:25 PM
  #322
Pierre Gotye
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Theres a good crowd of people who think ROR > Duchene
And for a lot of people its a toss up
People who had one two many beers, perhaps.

ROR got hyped up too much last season. He was a media love story. Duchene only played 58 games. Hence, his inflated stats. Do you think Greg Sherman doesn't know that and hence his reluctance to pay him the money and terms ROR wants?

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02-21-2013, 02:26 PM
  #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
ROR: two 26 point seasons, and one 55 point season.
Bozak: 27 point season, 32 point season, 47 point season.

On a side note, Bozak also played in less games than ROR did in years 1 and 3.


Yes, Gardiner/Rielly and Bozak/Grabovski or Kadri is giving up too much, and poor asset management.
You...could.. you know.. factor in things like..

Age: ROR was 18 in his first year, Bozak was undrafted at 18... His first year he was 23

Linemates: Bozaks been playing with Kessel since his first year, and had Lupul last year. Two PPG wingers. ROR? His first two years he was playing with 3rd/4th liners

PP Time: ROR got 35 seconds PP TOI/G in his first season.... Bozak got 3:39...

Defensive Zone Starts: 57% of the time his first year, 59.5% the second year... Bozak? 43.3% and 47.6%...

Etc:

Come on. Add a little context, it changes things quite a bit

Last season was the FIRST season ROR was given ANY kind of offensive opportunity, and he ended up leading the team in points when he was 20/21. A solid 2-3 years younger than Bozak was when he had his first season (half season actually) at the NHL level. Now, almost age 27, Bozak still hasnt cracked RORs career high in points despite having significantly better wingers offensively, and isn't nearly as strong defensively.

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02-21-2013, 02:29 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I would expect Gardiner + one of a good bottom 6 forward/a non-Kadri forward prospect from the Avs perspective.
Reasonable Avs fan finally! I am willing to do Gardiner + a decent other prospect or a bottom six guy for sure. This is where I have pegged RORs value for a while now.

If we were packaging Rielly and Kadri (as has been suggested) I can guarantee you we could get a C a hell of a lot better than ROR, and that is no knock on ROR, that is a testament to the quality of prospect / player the other two are.

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02-21-2013, 02:29 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Atomos2 View Post
It's cute when A/Vs fans think they have any shot of getting Rielly or Gardniner with ROR. It's like when you see a puppy start smacking at a bigger dog that could just eat the puppy whole if it wanted to. So hopeless that you can't help but go awww.
Really?
What a great post. -.-
If you think you have any shot at ROR or any semblance of a #1 Center in a trade without giving up one of those....

Well lets just say your metaphore works both ways......

I like the Leafs and intended to root for them to make the playoffs.
But I really think it would be fun if their obligatory slide starts earlier this year. I am a big fan of Carlyle so I don't think that will happen but if it does, I will laugh. Not at the whole Leafs fanbase but at guys like you.....

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