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Old
02-19-2013, 10:26 PM
  #726
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Originally Posted by JumboThornton92 View Post
Missed tonights game guys. Can someone sum up our effort on the ice?
Probably the most complete game out of the last 10. PK was solid and the PP had some good chances but didn't cash in. It looks like things are starting to turn around.

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02-19-2013, 10:34 PM
  #727
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But as the season has progressed...DW's stance has become more solidified. Clearly, no players have stepped it up. The top-six going through a funk is understandable; but I have seen nothing from the bottom-six that warrants a promotion. Even James Sheppard, for all his effort, has not been very productive. Gomez too hasn't seized a chance to get third-line minutes. In fact, and old Michael Handzus and Andrew Desjardins, two players who probably have the least "potential" of the bottom-six have been the most impressive players.

So this begs the question...maybe I've been misreading the talent. Maybe those players are really fringe NHLers. Maybe Wingels has no business sniffing the top-six; maybe Gomez is just as bad as everyone says he is.

Don't even get me started on the defense. Burns I can forgive, but what the hell has happened to Demers and Braun? All their puck-moving ability, gone like that! Just remember that at the start of the season + end of last, fans were seriously considering that Demers and Braun would push Stuart to the bottom-pairing. Demers was being lauded as a potential Boyle replacement, and Braun as a solid 3-4....seems laughable now.
No offense, but you're pretty much wrong on all accounts. Desjardins hasn't been the most impressive player in the bottom-6. Aside from maybe his last 2 games before his injury, he looked very mediocre. Handzus was the best bottom-6 for the first few games. In the last couple of games, Wingels and Sheppard have looked the best.

Nobody ever thought that Wingels would make Clowe expendable. No one really thought that he'd ever be Top-6 material. If he pans out, he'll make a very good 3rd liner.
Gomez also isn't great. Every reasonable person here knew that he was just going to be a PP specialist and decent bottom-6 player.

And what are you basing your conclusions on Demers and Braun off of? Their first passes are still good and their transition play is still good. Murray is just holding them back. It isn't laughable at all to say that they'll be Top-4 defenseman, maybe even by the end of this season if they start scratching Murray.

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02-19-2013, 10:42 PM
  #728
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No offense, but you're pretty much wrong on all accounts. Desjardins hasn't been the most impressive player in the bottom-6. Aside from maybe his last 2 games before his injury, he looked very mediocre. Handzus was the best bottom-6 for the first few games. In the last couple of games, Wingels and Sheppard have looked the best.

Nobody ever thought that Wingels would make Clowe expendable. No one really thought that he'd ever be Top-6 material. If he pans out, he'll make a very good 3rd liner.
Gomez also isn't great. Every reasonable person here knew that he was just going to be a PP specialist and decent bottom-6 player.

And what are you basing your conclusions on Demers and Braun off of? Their first passes are still good and their transition play is still good. Murray is just holding them back. It isn't laughable at all to say that they'll be Top-4 defenseman, maybe even by the end of this season if they start scratching Murray.
Yeah, I don't know what he's been watching. Wingels, Sheppard, and Galiardi were never going to make Clowe expendable this season. Wingels hasn't even played a full season in the NHL and hasn't ever shown that offensive flash that makes you believe he's a top six player. Sheppard is coming off of two missed seasons...seriously, top six? Displacing anyone in the top six after that? Please. Galiardi is coming off a poor year misused by his coach only to come here and be misused by his new coach because patience simply isn't there with this group of young players.

As for Braun and Demers, I'm not surprised. Both will be stunted as long as Douglas Murray is on the roster because as soon as whoever gets to play has a bad game, they sit. There's no excuse for Demers sitting at this stage. He is every bit better than Braun and both are better than Murray. And sending the message to young d-men that the first major screw-up you have means you're out of the lineup will make them worse as they tighten their grips on the stick...that's not good for PMD's.

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02-19-2013, 10:45 PM
  #729
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Just got home from the game and I thought we played a solid road game.

Wingels, Niemi and Kennedy were all impressive.

Burns looked A LOT better, hopefully he's getting his groove back.

Vlasic should not be allowed to shoot a puck on net.

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02-19-2013, 10:45 PM
  #730
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Not satisfied.

The Blues are an excellent team, but this Sharks team is too talented and too deep. They have a great top-six, their defense is top-notch, and there exists depth at almost every position. Quite possibly their main weakness in goaltending has been solid this year.

Let me explain...

I am no NHL scout, but I exited last season believing that one of Galiardi, Wingels, or Sheppard would make Clowe expedient. Wingels, especially, I thought was nearly there.
I think you were a little high on them, then. Even though I was (and still am) high on Wingels, I don't think he's ever going to be more than a 2nd/3rd line tweener and a guy who can fill in the top-6 in case of injury. Sheppard is rounding into a solid 3rd liner, he's been really good ever since the first Chicago game. Galiardi... I don't know what to think. When he plays with talent, he gets chances. When he doesn't, he looks like a 4th liner. I wouldn't mind seeing on of Galiardi or Sheppard with Couture and Havlat, but Clowe is the superior player.

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At that same time, there was a rumor (that I heard from my source, so again, grain of salt), that the Sharks would trade Clowe and Jason Demers to the Rangers for a package including the NYR 1st-round-pick and a blue-chip young'un. I highly suspected that Chris Kreider or Artem Anisimov would be that final piece. When that trade didn't materialize, I was disquieted. Even with just picks and prospects, I felt that the Sharks had the pieces to say "goodbye" to Clowe. Even if the NYR rumor wasn't true, Clowe was clearly an attractive asset to many teams. Regarding Demers, Braun had just come off an excellent season, and the Sharks were loaded at the D position prospect-wise.
I know you are a reputable guy, but I have a lot of trouble believing that rumor. Clowe is a guy that DW clearly values higher than he should, and not someone that I think he would have traded for futures. Plus, that deal seems a little too good to be true. At the time, Kreider was coming off a really good playoff, looking like a legit 2nd liner, and Anisimov is Anisimov. Both had more value than Clowe. Demers is not worth a first. I hope you're right, but I have a little trouble believing it.

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Post-lockout, when the Sharks signed Gomez, I thought "aha, this is the end of Clowe. DW now has insurance just in case no one can step it up". Yet Clowe still seems like he will be here for life. There were even some rumors of a contract extension!
I don't know what you (and many fans here) were expecting of Gomez, but I feel like I was one of the only people who though 'average #3C at best'. Some people were expecting him to play top-6.

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But as the season has progressed...DW's stance has become more solidified. Clearly, no players have stepped it up. The top-six going through a funk is understandable; but I have seen nothing from the bottom-six that warrants a promotion. Even James Sheppard, for all his effort, has not been very productive. Gomez too hasn't seized a chance to get third-line minutes. In fact, and old Michael Handzus and Andrew Desjardins, two players who probably have the least "potential" of the bottom-six have been the most impressive players.

So this begs the question...maybe I've been misreading the talent. Maybe those players are really fringe NHLers. Maybe Wingels has no business sniffing the top-six; maybe Gomez is just as bad as everyone says he is.
Neither Sheppard nor Wingels had impressive starts to the year, but both have been impressive of late... Just not 'top-6' impressive. Our only real hope is that Hertl can step in next year, and I dunno if he's gonna come over yet.

(As for Sheppard and Galiardi's production, each has around a 4% on-ice shooting percentage, so points should be doubled to get a feel for production. Doesn't do much, but it is something. As for Wingels, he's outproducing Thornton, Clowe, and Havlat in terms of EV points per 60, 4th on the team. He's almost at a top-6 level in terms of even strength production per 60.)

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Don't even get me started on the defense. Burns I can forgive, but what the hell has happened to Demers and Braun? All their puck-moving ability, gone like that! Just remember that at the start of the season + end of last, fans were seriously considering that Demers and Braun would push Stuart to the bottom-pairing. Demers was being lauded as a potential Boyle replacement, and Braun as a solid 3-4....seems laughable now.
I honestly don't see what everyone's gripe with Braun is. He's not Boyle, and a HUGE issue for him is learning to get his shot through lanes instead of shooting it into the defender, but he puts a ton of shots on net, has good possession numbers, has a good and accurate outlet pass, and rushes the puck quite well. I still maintain that he's a solid #4/5 right now and could round his game into a solid #4.

Demers... I don't even know what to think of him. He's definitely better than Murray, and has potential, but he has regressed. Who knows what to think of him. Myself, I never saw him as a Boyle replacement, more so someone who could replace some of his skillset as a possible #3 guy. Dunno what to think about him now, but if he got ice time maybe he could show us.

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:54 PM
  #731
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Does this mean we just won the cup because we beat the best team in the league. Who also was given the cup before teams even played 1 game.?

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02-19-2013, 10:56 PM
  #732
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Seriously, I'll never understand how fans get so hyped over guys like Gomez or White who had just been bought out. It's a giant red flag.

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02-19-2013, 10:56 PM
  #733
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Seriously, I'll never understand how fans get so hyped over guys like Gomez or White who had just been bought out. It's a giant red flag.
Exactly.

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02-19-2013, 11:00 PM
  #734
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Exactly.
Sure, it's a red flag but when they're brought in here, it's not for the same role nor is there the same level of expectations. Some guys adjust well and others don't. I can understand some optimism with bringing in these players in...if it's kept in check. lol

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:08 PM
  #735
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Does this mean we just won the cup because we beat the best team in the league. Who also was given the cup before teams even played 1 game.?
These guys:



Well, sure, they had to at least play the first period. And then they won! But the team moved away. So sad. What are all those steelworkers gonna do now?

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02-19-2013, 11:31 PM
  #736
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No offense, but you're pretty much wrong on all accounts. Desjardins hasn't been the most impressive player in the bottom-6. Aside from maybe his last 2 games before his injury, he looked very mediocre. Handzus was the best bottom-6 for the first few games. In the last couple of games, Wingels and Sheppard have looked the best.
Desjardins has been impressive given his expectations.

Handzus I really thought would play himself out of the lineup (or play so poorly that he'd deserve to be out of the lineup), but he's been good. He has exceeded his expectations. Importantly, he seems to get that his spot is not safe.

Quote:
Nobody ever thought that Wingels would make Clowe expendable. No one really thought that he'd ever be Top-6 material. If he pans out, he'll make a very good 3rd liner.
He had good underlying stats in Montreal. I was hoping he could be Kyle Wellwood 2.0; that he would be fighting for a wide-open spot on the third line. Unless you think Tmac is being malevolent or ignorant, Gomez clearly isn't doing that. Let us not forget that this is a player, still not over-the-hill, who was tremendously productive in a top-six role.

Wingels could be a second-liner. At least, he should consistently hold a third-line spot after doing so last year. The skillset is there. Great shot, good passing, good hockey sense and defensive acument, etc. He's not a bad skater either. Also, there was Galiardi, who we essentially traded Mcginn and Sgarbossa for.

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Gomez also isn't great. Every reasonable person here knew that he was just going to be a PP specialist and decent bottom-6 player.
Quote:
And what are you basing your conclusions on Demers and Braun off of? Their first passes are still good and their transition play is still good. Murray is just holding them back. It isn't laughable at all to say that they'll be Top-4 defenseman, maybe even by the end of this season if they start scratching Murray.
This may be a coaching issue, but I'm not seeing the offensive contributions from Demers or Braun. At this point in his career, I had hoped that Demers could be a defensemen you could rely on for 30-40 points. Part of why that has not happened has been his stalled development, for sure. Braun is following the same path. Looked like a guy who could be dependable for 30-40 points; he had 11 in nearly a full season last year, and is pointless this year.

I was hoping that Demers and Braun would force us to make a choice on their own merit, not Murray's failings.

Tell me honestly, if Douglas Murray was playing like he did in 2009 or 2010, would Demers or Braun deserve to play over him? My thought was that Demers and Braun would play well enough that Wilson would be forced to acknowledge Murray's redundance even with Murray in his prime..my hope was that DW would be forced to pick between the two; forced to trade one as players like Irwin and Abeltshauser matured through the system.

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02-19-2013, 11:36 PM
  #737
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I don't understand why they continue to not play Demers. Watching Murry struggle around the ice is painful. Braun isn't exactly blowing my socks off either.

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02-19-2013, 11:39 PM
  #738
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Four correct score SNOG'ers, but only who got a goalscorer correct. Congrats!



GameSNOG winner
Jan. 20 at CALjakeytown
Jan. 22 at EDMjuantimer
Jan. 24 vs PHXSpinTheBlackCircle
Jan. 26 vs COLArcataShark, Kawaii, Shape
Jan. 27 vs VANdo0glas, DuckEatinShark
Jan. 29 vs ANAHOOCH2173, rangerssharks414
Jan. 31 vs EDMBeeRad
Feb. 2 vs NASVP and GM
Feb. 4 at ANAnone
Feb. 5 vs CHIDuckEatinShark
Feb. 9 vs PHOnone
Feb. 11 at CBJnone
Feb. 12 at NASHOOCH2173
Feb. 15 at CHIcouturefan39
Feb. 19 at STLilikebigjoe

2013 Standings
---------------------
1) DuckEatinShark, HOOCH2173, (2)
T-3) ArcataShark, BeeRad, couturefan39, do0glas, ilikebigjoe, jakeytown, juantimer, Kawaii, rangerssharks414, Shape, SpinTheBlackCircle, VP and GM (1)
excellent

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02-19-2013, 11:40 PM
  #739
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Demers and Gomez weren't on the ice for warm ups. Galiardi was and he was a healthy scratch.

Sheppard was in the tunnel watching warm ups and he looked pretty sad.

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02-20-2013, 12:01 AM
  #740
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I've been low on Niemi since we acquired him, but he's really impressed me so far this season. It seems like every aspect of his game (rebound control, puck tracking, crease movement, etc) has improved over the offseason.

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02-20-2013, 12:11 AM
  #741
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I think the problem with Demers and Braun is that there is really only room on your defense for two PMD/Offensive guys. The other four you need to be Defensive Defensivemen first with offense skills as a bonus after that. (you can maybe have one tweener guy)

Boyle and Burns are our versions of the Puck Moving/Offensive type defensive men. So Braun and Demers are kind of the odd men out in that regard.

Braun is a great skater, with great puck moving skills (even though he doesn't get any points which is weird because he should be with his skill set)...it seems like McClellan is high on him and is probably trying to get him better defensively.

Demers is a great puck mover/shooter with good physicality. Defensively speaking he is average.

Even though they are both better than Murray by comparison, I think Murray is actually a better fit for a 5/6 dman. (Note - I am in no way a Murray supporter)

The Burns trade kind of sealed the fate for Braun/Demers and it seems like Todd is choosing Braun.

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02-20-2013, 12:15 AM
  #742
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I think the problem with Demers and Braun is that there is really only room on your defense for two PMD/Offensive guys. The other four you need to be Defensive Defensivemen first with offense skills as a bonus after that. (you can maybe have one tweener guy)

Boyle and Burns are our versions of the Puck Moving/Offensive type defensive men. So Braun and Demers are kind of the odd men out in that regard.

Braun is a great skater, with great puck moving skills (even though he doesn't get any points which is weird because he should be with his skill set)...it seems like McClellan is high on him and is probably trying to get him better defensively.

Demers is a great puck mover/shooter with good physicality. Defensively speaking he is average.

Even though they are both better than Murray by comparison, I think Murray is actually a better fit for a 5/6 dman. (Note - I am in no way a Murray supporter)

The Burns trade kind of sealed the fate for Braun/Demers and it seems like Todd is choosing Braun.
There is more room for PMD's than just two. That kind of thinking that you can only have so many puck-movers is not what works now. You need all the ones you can get.

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02-20-2013, 12:16 AM
  #743
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There's no reason why we should sit Braun or Demers over Murray. They're fine defensively and much more mobile, which would lead to less time in the defensive zone by itself. The biggest plus about it is it'll give us a puck mover on the left side, so teams can't just overload the right defenseman to kill our breakout.

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02-20-2013, 12:20 AM
  #744
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There is more room for PMD's than just two. That kind of thinking that you can only have so many puck-movers is not what works now. You need all the ones you can get.
Don't mistake what I'm saying, I'm not saying your other four defensive defenseman are just giant "pylons." Sure its great if they have some puck moving skill. But at their core, they need to be strong defensively.

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02-20-2013, 12:25 AM
  #745
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
I think the problem with Demers and Braun is that there is really only room on your defense for two PMD/Offensive guys. The other four you need to be Defensive Defensivemen first with offense skills as a bonus after that. (you can maybe have one tweener guy)

Boyle and Burns are our versions of the Puck Moving/Offensive type defensive men. So Braun and Demers are kind of the odd men out in that regard.

Braun is a great skater, with great puck moving skills (even though he doesn't get any points which is weird because he should be with his skill set)...it seems like McClellan is high on him and is probably trying to get him better defensively.

Demers is a great puck mover/shooter with good physicality. Defensively speaking he is average.

Even though they are both better than Murray by comparison, I think Murray is actually a better fit for a 5/6 dman. (Note - I am in no way a Murray supporter)

The Burns trade kind of sealed the fate for Braun/Demers and it seems like Todd is choosing Braun.
Braun isn't exactly a PMD, he's more of a TWD. Besides, the Braun-Demers pairing is proven to be effective, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing them together. They'd be playing against bottom-6 competition for the most part, and both are good enough defensively to handle them, particularly Braun. Plus, it's nice to have two defensemen who can handle the puck playing together.

Besides, the notion that you need to pair a PMD with a SDD is old fashioned. The TWD is what you want all over your roster, if you can.

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02-20-2013, 12:26 AM
  #746
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Hey jux i told you. Thornton is the best. He scored a goal while marlue just sat around doing nothing.

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02-20-2013, 12:26 AM
  #747
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Don't mistake what I'm saying, I'm not saying your other four defensive defenseman are just giant "pylons." Sure its great if they have some puck moving skill. But at their core, they need to be strong defensively.
I agree with this when it comes to the PK.

But at ES, the other team can't score if you can hold on to the puck.

Moreover, it isn't like Demers or Braun are Christian Ehrhoff when he first got there. If you look at their point totals, you'd have to say that they are getting ice time only BECAUSE of their defensive contribution.

For the most part, they've been solid defensively, especially Braun. Demers makes mistakes, which is 100% acceptable given his age and offensive ability.

Simply, how can Demers or Braun differentiate themselves without offense? Neither is a stalware defensively; nothing over the many veteran 5-6 guys out there. Like I said, I take a 2010 Douglas Murray over either player handidly. It is their offensive contributions that would vault them over....

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02-20-2013, 12:29 AM
  #748
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Hey jux i told you. Thornton is the best. He scored a goal while marlue just sat around doing nothing.
FYI that's all my doing. I'm wearing my Thornton shirt for the first time this season. Clearly it inspired him to score.

EDIT: Also, WTF??? Sobotka was named first star of this game. Obviously, it was Pierre who picked the stars.

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02-20-2013, 12:35 AM
  #749
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Don't mistake what I'm saying, I'm not saying your other four defensive defenseman are just giant "pylons." Sure its great if they have some puck moving skill. But at their core, they need to be strong defensively.
What you're saying is that puck skills are not the most important attribute from a defenseman. I disagree with that assertion. Puck-moving is the single greatest necessity from a d-man in this game right now...especially to this team, a puck-possession team. They need guys that are good on the breakouts and good at holding the puck in. Regardless, by any reasonable measure, Demers and Braun should be in the lineup over Murray. Murray's defensive play is barely on par with both those guys because his mobility is so awful and his puck play is the tipping point.

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02-20-2013, 12:37 AM
  #750
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FYI that's all my doing. I'm wearing my Thornton shirt for the first time this season. Clearly it inspired him to score.

EDIT: Also, WTF??? Sobotka was named first star of this game. Obviously, it was Pierre who picked the stars.
Nope sorry. I was wearing my Thornton jersey and my friend ate 19 tater tots at the bar so clearly we were responsible for him doing so well.

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