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Has Adam Oates Been Fired Yet????

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Old
12-06-2013, 10:45 PM
  #351
newfr4u
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Originally Posted by Capitlols View Post
I didn't even say he should be top 3 all the time, way to put words in my mouth. However, if you don't expect him to consistently be one of the best players in the world, your being too lenient.
he was. there aren't many players not among the best who can score 38 goals.

Quote:
I provided statistical evidence that OV performed better under Hunter that year than Boudreau, you point to luck, that is as anecdotal as it gets. Saying he was better than 94% of the league doesn't mean squat when he was consistently better than 99.9% of the league, if not the whole league. In that sense, he was average at best.
hahaha. ok, apparently you don't know what is statistical and what is anecdotal. he was decidedly shooting a little bit luckier under hunter than under boudreau. and as a whole the team was firing fewer shots under hunter than under boudreau. ultimately, that's what determines your playoff chances more. if you don't believe that, that's your problem. http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...1/splits/2012/

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Boudreau and Hunter benched him for limp ******* it, that should tell you all you need to know about his effort level that year. Unless your a blind OV fanboy.
you have one instance of OV not being on the ice in an EN situation, and his minutes were down under hunter. that's not a reliable measure of 'effort level', i.e. not data, not evidence, nothing just some anecdote that you tell in a bar. unless you are a blind moron who can't tell the difference between a measurable skill that tells you ovechkin fired 300+ shots on net, and a non-quantifiable effort that you think you see when you happen to notice the #8 jersey on tv.

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It helped that Minnesota was able to get the likes of Parise, Suter, Pominville, etc. after that year...We don't have the depth that Minnesota has. I want to be clear, I'm not arguing against possession, I'm just saying this group is incapable of it. They would have more success in Hunter's scheme.
this is hilarious as well. washington was a top-5 possession team in 2008-2010 and average in 10-11. At the time (during hunter's tenure) it was certainly premature to say they were incapable. and letting them rot in the bottom of the league was not the solution. once again, hunter's scheme completely gives up on puck possession and only looks to defend 1-goal leads at all costs.

at this point this year, they have just about 1 full season under oates, and possession-wise they are at least as good as hunter's sample, plus a much better offensive team. to say they would have more success in Hunter's scheme shows that you literally know nothing about the current state of the game.

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12-06-2013, 11:52 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
he was. there aren't many players not among the best who can score 38 goals.



hahaha. ok, apparently you don't know what is statistical and what is anecdotal. he was decidedly shooting a little bit luckier under hunter than under boudreau. and as a whole the team was firing fewer shots under hunter than under boudreau. ultimately, that's what determines your playoff chances more. if you don't believe that, that's your problem. http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...1/splits/2012/



you have one instance of OV not being on the ice in an EN situation, and his minutes were down under hunter. that's not a reliable measure of 'effort level', i.e. not data, not evidence, nothing just some anecdote that you tell in a bar. unless you are a blind moron who can't tell the difference between a measurable skill that tells you ovechkin fired 300+ shots on net, and a non-quantifiable effort that you think you see when you happen to notice the #8 jersey on tv.



this is hilarious as well. washington was a top-5 possession team in 2008-2010 and average in 10-11. At the time (during hunter's tenure) it was certainly premature to say they were incapable. and letting them rot in the bottom of the league was not the solution. once again, hunter's scheme completely gives up on puck possession and only looks to defend 1-goal leads at all costs.

at this point this year, they have just about 1 full season under oates, and possession-wise they are at least as good as hunter's sample, plus a much better offensive team. to say they would have more success in Hunter's scheme shows that you literally know nothing about the current state of the game.
Not being in the top 35 in points is not one of the best players in the world.

Apparently you don't. He scored at a higher rate after Hunter took over, it's a statistical fact. You can stick to your basis of luck to delude yourself in thinking he wasn't more productive.

He got benched by two different coaches because of his effort what more do you need, wow. Unless your a blind OV fanboy, which is definitely the case, you would know he wasn't anywhere close to the same player he was that year, in all facets of his game. Lol at stating his shots on net as a case for his effort, it was his career low. Of course that was all Hunter's fault, not anything inherently wrong with his game.

Maybe you should think back to your Minnesota argument. This isn't the same Caps team of the past. There has been roster turnover and they have more unskilled grinders, there's no Semin or Fleischmann, and guys like Green are a shell of their former self. Hunter's scheme may have given up possession, but they're doing it regardless now. Oates's scheme isn't showing anything when it comes to even strength production and when they don't score a PPG they have a terrible record.

How is that a good thing that they are "at least as good as Hunter" possession-wise. That's not saying much since that wasn't even Hunter's scheme. They're 18th when it comes to 5-on-5 goals, they were 14th under Hunter. How exactly are they a much better offensive team. Advocating possession is fine, but your just oblivious to the personnel and their strengths, which isn't best suited for possession hockey.

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Old
12-07-2013, 06:14 AM
  #353
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Begun, the Talk Wars have:

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey-...ck-talks-cheap

Quote:
Following the Capitals’ 4-1 loss to the Carolina Hurricanes Tuesday night defenseman Mike Green was asked about the response of his team after falling behind 2-0 in the second period.

“I think we could have put a little more pucks on net or maybe somebody get in a fight or throw a big check that maybe would have turned the momentum around,” Green said. “You can always say it afterward, but until you do it during the game and understand how the momentum shifts work … As soon as they got that second goal we kind of deflated and we never got our energy back up from there.”

Was Green challenging his teammates to respond better than they did Tuesday night, perhaps in the same way defenseman Karl Alzner seemed to be calling out his teammates for taking the Hurricanes “way too lightly?”

It’s a question that was answered in many different ways on Thursday.

“Then why didn’t he do it?” Capitals head coach Adam Oates said. “Talk’s cheap.

“You’re talking to a guy who could not say that. In 1,500 games I could never say that because I was not the guy who could go out and [fight], so I would never say it.”

The Capitals have plenty of players willing to drop the gloves. They are tied for 12th in the NHL with 15 fighting majors, led by Tom Wilson’s five.

But everyone seemed to agree there are plenty of ways to turn around the momentum of a game than dropping the mitts.

“We’re not really built to go out there and start a line brawl or something like that,” Caps left wing Jason Chimera said. “What do you expect? No one’s going to fight anyways when you’re up 2-0 or 4-0. Score a goal, I don’t know.”
Quote:
“Tough question,” center Jay Beagle said. “Momentum shifts happen from a good shift. From a good penalty kill, from a blocked shot. It can happen from so many things. I thought we had three or four big hits from Willy [Tom Wilson] in that second and third period, so I don’t know. Your main focus is getting a goal when it’s 2-0.”

Oates said a big check thrown by Ovechkin just before Carolina’s fourth goal was another attempt to change the game’s momentum. More importantly, Oates said he does not take issue with the push back the Caps have had this season.

“I’ve yet to feel we haven’t responded as a team in my tenure,” Oates said. “Can we do stuff better? Of course.”

There are so many mixed messages here my head is spinning.

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12-07-2013, 06:35 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by g00n View Post
Begun, the Talk Wars have:

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey-...ck-talks-cheap

There are so many mixed messages here my head is spinning.
No cup. What's mixing there?

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12-07-2013, 07:28 AM
  #355
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Good stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitlols
There has been roster turnover and they have more unskilled grinders, there's no Semin or Fleischmann, and guys like Green are a shell of their former self. Hunter's scheme may have given up possession, but they're doing it regardless now
There is something to be said about a coach recognizing failure will likely occur and doing what he thinks is best to cut it off at the pass, even at the expense of the fans entertainment value. Where Dale failed was thinking we would score more off of turnovers in the neutral zone / counters. We had and have no neutral zone game.

About the boring play, no playoff game under Dale ever gave a fan a free moment to sit back in their seat. There was no blowout, so you could relax for 2 periods. The games were entertaining because you knew the next goal was huge.

Now, the regular season games are not entertaining to me and we are not in a shell.

The fact that Dale came here to an offensive juggernaut, hunkered down and then bailed back to home as soon as he could speaks volumes to the mess that George has tried to assemble.

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12-07-2013, 07:39 AM
  #356
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I'd say the messages are mixed.

Oates challenging Green? Which is funny since Green scored the only goal.

Chimera thinks they are a team of wussies?

Chimera maybe on track thinking they could have scored a goal?

Beagle sounds mixed up and wasn't sure what to do?

Ovechkin threw a big hit which added to Carolina's momentum? But Oatsie liked the hit.

Nobody's talking to Alzner anymore?

Green in the dog house for implying someone should have thrown a check or picked a fight?


And on the heels of a Carolina drubbing Oates says

“I’ve yet to feel we haven’t responded as a team in my tenure,” Oates said. “Can we do stuff better? Of course.”

Guess he got the Ranger game 7 out of his mind pretty quickly.

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12-07-2013, 10:39 AM
  #357
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Oates kind of owned Green there.

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12-07-2013, 10:47 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
Oates kind of owned Green there.
Yeah but if Oates says he couldn't have said that because he wasn't a fighter when he was a player, why is he calling Green out to do it? That's one of the mixed messages.

And what is Chimera talking about that nobody on the other team will fight when they're up 2-0 or 4-0? It happens all the time.

And what about Wilson going against the entire thing saying you're focused on scoring not big hits or fights to swing the momentum? And he's one of the fighters/checkers while Oates and Green are not!

Huh?

Does anybody know what they're supposed to be doing and saying?


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12-07-2013, 11:12 AM
  #359
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I don't think that's a mixed message. They're two expressions of the same thing: Either fight or don't, but don't talk about it if you're not going to. Using himself as an example softens the blow, but it's still there. I guess it's worth noting that Green has fought before.

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12-07-2013, 12:43 PM
  #360
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NHL rumors: Peter Laviolette a candidate if Isles fire Jack Capuano

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-...e-jack-capuano

We are going to miss out on Laviolette a second time.

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12-07-2013, 01:05 PM
  #361
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NHL rumors: Peter Laviolette a candidate if Isles fire Jack Capuano

http://www.cbssports.com/nhl/eye-on-...e-jack-capuano

We are going to miss out on Laviolette a second time.
I used to think of him as a good candidate for Caps, not so sure any more after his stint with the Flyers. Can he handle a dysfunctional team?

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12-07-2013, 01:17 PM
  #362
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I don't think that's a mixed message. They're two expressions of the same thing: Either fight or don't, but don't talk about it if you're not going to. Using himself as an example softens the blow, but it's still there. I guess it's worth noting that Green has fought before.
I have to think he was maybe a little put off in his first response, unless he was joking.

It does not seem consistent to ask why someone isn't starting fights instead of just talking about it, and then imply that that player shouldn't be talking about it. Does he want Green to be talking the talk and walking the walk, or is he using himself as an example of not even talking at all?

It seems to me like he may have made an off the cuff remark due to frustration with Green and the fact that players are chirping in the press about what boils down to COACHING issues. You have players asking for trades, bad losses, and quotes from players about how unmotivated and underprepared they are.

Meanwhile Oates is sounding the familiar refrain about guys not doing what they're supposed to do. We've heard this from EVERY one of the coaches GMGM has hired! And not surprisingly, the only guy to get past that "buy-in" obstacle took them through the 1st round of the playoffs (at the expense of offense).

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12-09-2013, 08:04 AM
  #363
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Oates, like every coach EVER, has a doghouse.

However its becoming apparent that Oates is not so stubborn as to never let said player out of it. His actions lead me to believe he admits to his mistakes although sometimes it takes a bit more time than some of us would like.

It would take BB an entire season and half a playoff series before he would bench guys like Schultz and Flash.

Hunters doghouse seemed permenent (Halpern, Erskine, MP and to an extent Ovechkin)

Oates gives me a different vibe.

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12-09-2013, 08:28 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Oates, like every coach EVER, has a doghouse.

However its becoming apparent that Oates is not so stubborn as to never let said player out of it. His actions lead me to believe he admits to his mistakes although sometimes it takes a bit more time than some of us would like.

It would take BB an entire season and half a playoff series before he would bench guys like Schultz and Flash.

Hunters doghouse seemed permenent (Halpern, Erskine, MP and to an extent Ovechkin)

Oates gives me a different vibe.
When you lose 4 or 5 games in a row and there's talk that you or your boss might be fired, you tend to expand your options.

If this team was winning while players were in the doghouse I have no doubt that Oates would probably leave them there instead of shaking things up.

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12-09-2013, 08:39 AM
  #365
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When you lose 4 or 5 games in a row and there's talk that you or your boss might be fired, you tend to expand your options.

If this team was winning while players were in the doghouse I have no doubt that Oates would probably leave them there instead of shaking things up.
In professional sports there is always pressure to win.

If I recall last year we were doing poorly and Oates had Ovechkin on RW and never waivered even putting him on the "4th line".

I didn't see anything that suggested a panic move personally. I believe, like all coaches, he wants to get the most of out his players and parses out ice time in an effort to do so.

Ofcourse he has favorites and what not. Every coach does.

Go on ANY board right now. A team thats winning or losing. You will find a chunk of fans who think their coach is an "idiot" for preferring player X instead of player Y and usually there are 2 or 3 players like this on any team.

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12-09-2013, 08:55 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Oates, like every coach EVER, has a doghouse.

However its becoming apparent that Oates is not so stubborn as to never let said player out of it. His actions lead me to believe he admits to his mistakes although sometimes it takes a bit more time than some of us would like.

It would take BB an entire season and half a playoff series before he would bench guys like Schultz and Flash.

Hunters doghouse seemed permenent (Halpern, Erskine, MP and to an extent Ovechkin)

Oates gives me a different vibe.
I'm pretty sure Orlov playing is a strict directive from McPhee.

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12-09-2013, 10:57 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I'm pretty sure Orlov playing is a strict directive from McPhee.
I don't think we have any way of knowing that but it doesn't appear to be the case.

If McPhee was that meddlesome in player decisions then why was Erat allowed to start the season on the 4th line and even at some point a healthy scratch?

I believe McPhee trusts Oates and gives him full reign on that kind of stuff personally.

Oates, like every coach EVER, makes strange decisions that I don't agree with as I'm sure alot of you guys don't either. But then again there has never been a coach of any team I root for that has been perfect in my eyes. There are always several decisions I strongly disagree with.

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12-09-2013, 11:14 AM
  #368
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I don't think we have any way of knowing that but it doesn't appear to be the case.

If McPhee was that meddlesome in player decisions then why was Erat allowed to start the season on the 4th line and even at some point a healthy scratch?

I believe McPhee trusts Oates and gives him full reign on that kind of stuff personally.

Oates, like every coach EVER, makes strange decisions that I don't agree with as I'm sure alot of you guys don't either. But then again there has never been a coach of any team I root for that has been perfect in my eyes. There are always several decisions I strongly disagree with.
He's not meddlesome. Particular circumstances made him feel it was necessary to force Orlov into the lineup. Yeah, we don't have a way of knowing, but it absolutely does appear to be the case. Look at any of his public comments about Orlov, especially recently and during training camp. There has historically been a clear difference of opinion between him and Oates about Orlov. McPhee said he was done with Hershey three months ago. Now there's a risk of losing a player of whom he probably thinks highly; either he's going to cut his losses and trade Orlov, or make sure he gets into the lineup. If fedfed is right and he's traded soon, then it's the first option (but still McPhee's call to play him). If he isn't, then the promotion last night is probably a sign of Oates coming around. It's unclear if Oates doesn't like him in particular or just didn't like that he preferred the right side. If it's the latter, Orlov playing well on the left should settle the issue.

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12-09-2013, 11:32 AM
  #369
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Orlov obviously forced the Caps hand with the trade demand through his agent. Whether it came from GMGM or Oates shouldn't matter much because the fact is neither could work together to manage this asset properly.

GMGM clearly wanted to keep Orlov, hence his call-up yo-yo act, but Oates would not or could not play him. Given what we know about the d-men on the roster and how many have played (an NHL high 12) I think it's unlikely that Oates COULD NOT find a spot. He probably chose not to, and GMGM scrambled to legally keep Orlov in the Caps system.

As I have said I think GMGM is stuck trying to make this handedness nightmare work. Orlov was almost a casualty of it.

If we want to look big picture then ultimately GMGM is to blame for hiring one inexperienced coach after another and allowing them to walk in with their experimental systems and theories while we waste the careers of some great players.

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12-09-2013, 12:58 PM
  #370
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I don't think we have any way of knowing that but it doesn't appear to be the case.
I want to agree...but the timing of the call up doesn't jive. He's playing because there was tension with the player and agent...along with a time frame for days on the active roster to assure he didn't bolt for the KHL.

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12-09-2013, 01:28 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Oates, like every coach EVER, has a doghouse.

However its becoming apparent that Oates is not so stubborn as to never let said player out of it. His actions lead me to believe he admits to his mistakes although sometimes it takes a bit more time than some of us would like.

It would take BB an entire season and half a playoff series before he would bench guys like Schultz and Flash.

Hunters doghouse seemed permenent (Halpern, Erskine, MP and to an extent Ovechkin)

Oates gives me a different vibe.
Hamrlik was permanently in Oates' doghouse but managed to crawl out of Hunter's.

It's taking agent interference to make Oates change his lineup.

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12-09-2013, 01:33 PM
  #372
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I'm pretty sure Orlov playing is a strict directive from McPhee.
I totally agree.

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12-09-2013, 01:47 PM
  #373
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If we want to look big picture then ultimately GMGM is to blame for hiring one inexperienced coach after another and allowing them to walk in with their experimental systems and theories while we waste the careers of some great players.
I think everyone here will agree on that.

Also, I thought Orlov wasn't any close to current shape in training camp. He wasn't that effective and he lost his spot. Plain and simple.

That's why he didn't make any strong arguments and just said he needs to work more and wait for opportunity (@RMNB interview).

His agent just forced the issue a bit.

But in the same time Dima got in shape in Hershey and accustomed to the left side better. Now he is clearly belonging (for now at least).

It all was in dynamic. Nothing strange for the young russian LH RD in Oates scheme.

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12-09-2013, 02:13 PM
  #374
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Not being in the top 35 in points is not one of the best players in the world.

Apparently you don't. He scored at a higher rate after Hunter took over, it's a statistical fact. You can stick to your basis of luck to delude yourself in thinking he wasn't more productive.
ok, for the rest of the argument, i'll leave out things like high school math. there seems to be a limit of what you can discuss on the matters of probability.

Quote:
He got benched by two different coaches because of his effort what more do you need, wow. Unless your a blind OV fanboy, which is definitely the case, you would know he wasn't anywhere close to the same player he was that year, in all facets of his game. Lol at stating his shots on net as a case for his effort, it was his career low. Of course that was all Hunter's fault, not anything inherently wrong with his game.

Maybe you should think back to your Minnesota argument. This isn't the same Caps team of the past. There has been roster turnover and they have more unskilled grinders, there's no Semin or Fleischmann, and guys like Green are a shell of their former self. Hunter's scheme may have given up possession, but they're doing it regardless now. Oates's scheme isn't showing anything when it comes to even strength production and when they don't score a PPG they have a terrible record.

How is that a good thing that they are "at least as good as Hunter" possession-wise. That's not saying much since that wasn't even Hunter's scheme. They're 18th when it comes to 5-on-5 goals, they were 14th under Hunter. How exactly are they a much better offensive team. Advocating possession is fine, but your just oblivious to the personnel and their strengths, which isn't best suited for possession hockey.
if it were something inherently wrong with his game, his numbers would have stayed at the career lows. they didn't. pretty much immediately after being allowed to play offensively, everyone's numbers went up. oates' scheme isn't wholly dependent on the power play. that was a stupid storyline last year that ovechkin can only score on the PP now. second half of the season and this season, he scores in both situations. so whatever 5v5 incompetence was stated, it was quite a bit overhyped.

the bigger problem is that they are still average possession-wise, and roster-wise they could use a lot of possession help. that doesn't meant everyone should hunker down. an average possession offensive team is better than an average possession defensive team. hands down. for one, offensively minded teams actually tend to get better at puck-possession as they play a bit better. defensively minded teams tend to stay average when they play 'well'.

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12-09-2013, 02:21 PM
  #375
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Pretty amusing to look at Laich vs. Orlov since the lockout.

Orlov acts as the ultimate team player and stays in Hershey during the lockout. Suffers an injury while doing so and gets sent to figurative Siberia.

Laich spends the lockout in Switzerland hot-dogging it for no reason. Suffers an injury while doing so and is given every chance in the world here. Probably too much of a chance as he's reinjured his groin.


Last edited by BrooklynCapsFan: 12-09-2013 at 02:44 PM.
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