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Trade Rumor Thread IV - "What's all the roar over RoR?"

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02-21-2013, 12:55 PM
  #376
Jabroni
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Ryan O'Reilly sounds enticing now. we could use another center, especially with Richards playing like garbage and declining. Young kid too.

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02-21-2013, 12:58 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
That's very black and white. Even if judging him based solely on goals made any sense, it's still only been 15 games.

Thats what Nash and Gaborik are here for first and foremost.

I just think the double standard is hilarious. Ive never seen it more apparent on here.

You can put out all the effort in the world, the end result is what matters. That effort just mitigates the lack of production, but its still a lack of production. "He is trying guys!"

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02-21-2013, 12:59 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Thats what Nash and Gaborik are here for first and foremost.

I just think the double standard is hilarious. You can put out all the effort in the world, the end result is what matters. That effort just mitigates the bad, but its still bad.
Please explain the double standard.

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02-21-2013, 01:00 PM
  #379
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Just had an epiphany. Could ROR be seen as a guy that can matchup with Malkin and/or Crosby? Not like Boyle has done a great job.

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02-21-2013, 01:02 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Please explain the double standard.

Its never been more okay to not score goals than when Nash doesnt. I have never seen a player given more slack on this board than that. Especially at 7.8 million.

"He looks like Jagr out there!"

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02-21-2013, 01:03 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Just had an epiphany. Could ROR be seen as a guy that can matchup with Malkin and/or Crosby? Not like Boyle has done a great job.
He has done that consistently so far in his career. Sedin, Thornton, Toews, Getzlaf, Benn, etc.

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02-21-2013, 01:03 PM
  #382
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Ok, you guys have convinced me.. I'm on board with Del Zotto for ROR, not Del Zotto + Kreider or Miller though.

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02-21-2013, 01:05 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
He has done that consistently so far in his career. Sedin, Thornton, Toews, Getzlaf, Benn, etc.
As presently constituted I don't think we're going to win a series against the Pens. I'm on board.

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02-21-2013, 01:05 PM
  #384
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Im convinced as well.

DZ isnt particularly great at any single attribute. Maybe turnovers.

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02-21-2013, 01:06 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
You can think whatever you want, just like I could.

Fact is, there is more than 1 person here questioning if you've ever watched ROR.

There are multiple people here stating that ROR's value is greater than MDZ, even if it's slightly.
So now the number of people saying things that aren't true makes it more valid? Boom Boom, this board, particularly over the last couple of years, has become such a "mob-mentality" that I usually just roll my eyes at group-think posts and decide not to bother. I doubt I'm the only one.

This board LOVES to pick one player, informally decide on a "meme" for that player, and then repeat it until it suddenly becomes the "truth." Last year, it was Dubinsky, with the combo of "he's a dumb player" and "he doesn't know what kind of player he is." Neither label was true, but one or two guys started saying it, and the crowd that got pissed off by his holdout combined with the crowd that was in love with Nash started repeating it all the time.

Now, it's Del Zotto's turn. It's another perfect storm. There are some guys who have never liked the kid for some reason (no idea why, but like Dubinsky, there's a crowd of posters here who have been in favor of trading Del Zotto since mid-way through his rookie year). Once again, we see the meme building--just look through this thread. Suddenly, he's "not a real puck mover" and he's "inconsistent." One guy said it a few times, and then others latched on. It's absurd.

I have seen O'Reilly play. He's VERY good defensively (though not as good as Callahan, IMO--in fairness, he's much younger and playing the tougher position, but Cally is more decisive/instinctive in his defensive play--RO'R has a tendency to over-think things from time to time, which worries me at playoff time). Offensively? He's capable, but he's nothing special. On the offensive side of the puck, he reminds me a lot of Dom Moore (the Toronto/Tampa Bay version--not when he was with us). He's a decent passer, but doesn't really have a shooter's instincts. Last season, I saw a player who benefitted from having a phenomenal player on his wing. Landeskog made all kinds of space for O'Reilly last season, driving to the net, drawing multiple defenders and then dishing the puck to O'Reilly for the easy tap in. Alternately, O'Reilly would frequently give the puck to Landeskog, who would make a goal happen (resulting in an "assist" for O'Reilly, even though the pass rarely had much to do with the goal).

That doesn't make O'Reilly trash. He's still a good player and I would still love to have him on the Rangers third line. But he's NOT a #1 center and he never will be. He doesn't have the offensive skill to fill that role, and he's never shown that level of skill at any level.

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In the fairytale, delusional world you live in, you seem to think the 3rd most valuable LHD on our roster, who will never be a top-pairing dmen, is more valuable than a #2 Center who's capable of wrecking havoc defensively, and has the hands and the offensive swagger to hit 60+ points without question.
You just did what Kwayry pointed out earlier, btw. You characterize MDZ by what he is right now, while valuing O'Reilly by what you think he could be. Frankly, the fact that you think O'Reilly can put up 60+ points "without question" and that he has "offensive swagger" (swagger is the last word I would use to describe O'Reilly's offense) makes me seriously question your take on the player.

I said it earlier--a 40+ point defenseman is MUCH rarer than a 50+ point forward. Last year, there were only 19 of the former and nearly 100 of the latter. The only way that you can argue that RO'R has more value than MDZ is to play prognosticator and assume that you know that Del Zotto will never progress and the O'Reilly will hit a ceiling that he has never been projected to have. Frankly, THAT, to me, sounds like the "fairytale, delusional world"--regardless of how many people are saying it.

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02-21-2013, 01:07 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Kwayry View Post
I respect that point of view.
I don't think RoR is "needed", what is needed is Richards to get his head out of his ass and start playing up to his salary. $12 Million and playing like crap, geez.
RoR would solidify the team down the middle for years to come, I completely see the value there. I disagree on the price to get it.
I agree 100%. If Richards was playing like Richards and Steps was playing a little better we wouldn't be panicking as much for sure. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm just pretty worried Richards will keep getting worse. It's an odd statement, I know, because players will hit slumps and what-not, but with past players on this team who we sign and then they completely **** the bed it's hard to be optimistic about it. Kind of like having every girl you date cheat on you, then you find one who seems super awesome and she goes to a party and doesn't call you for a couple days in a row, haha you're freaking out because based on past girlfriends you're sure you know what's happening.

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02-21-2013, 01:08 PM
  #387
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Package Boyle and DZ. Theyre boys, right?

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02-21-2013, 01:09 PM
  #388
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Now, I will say no one is stupid for being for or against this trade. This trade is not really cut and dry because the Rangers do lack depth defensively right now, but with the way Richards is playing, we lack centers right now too.

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02-21-2013, 01:10 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
7.5 compared to 7.8 is that large of a difference?
We traded a number of assets for Nash, and he received that contract number as an RFA.

We signed Gaborik as a UFA for 7.5 for no assets.

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02-21-2013, 01:13 PM
  #390
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Its never been more okay to not score goals than when Nash doesnt. I have never seen a player given more slack on this board than that. Especially at 7.8 million.

"He looks like Jagr out there!"
I started writing a reply, then realized that if you don't see it now, then you probably won't.

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02-21-2013, 01:15 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Its never been more okay to not score goals than when Nash doesnt. I have never seen a player given more slack on this board than that. Especially at 7.8 million.

"He looks like Jagr out there!"
This is the other hallmark of the groupthink on this board. When the mob is shown to be wrong, they change their argument and claim to have been right all along. The Dubi sucks, trade for Nash contingent was founded on the argument that Dubinsky needed to score goals. Physical play, defense, assists--none of it meant a thing. You get paid north of 4 million per, it's your job to put the puck in the net. That refrain was posted here on a daily basis last year. We were told that Nash was worth it because he would do just that--it's all about the goals.

Now that we're into the season and Nash is on pace for fewer than 20 goals over the course of an 82 game season, we hear about how important defense, physical play and assists are, and how Nash is so key because he brings those elements (to be clear, I'm very happy with Nash's play--his playmaking is actually better than Dubi's, which I didn't expect. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy).


The same thing is going on here. When people thought Slats had offered MDZ, the pro-trade group was screaming "if the TEAM thinks MDZ is expendable, then they clearly know best!!" Once it was reported that MDZ and Stepan were, in fact, "non starters" in the trade talks, it suddenly became "that's just Slats playing hardball!" The mob on this forum has made up its mind. Regardless of what is said by anybody from the press to the team--they've decided that RO'R is more valuable than MDZ and no amount of reality will get them to think differently.

What happens, I wonder, if this trade DOES happen and O'Reilly doesn't magically change into this player you guys have built him up to be?

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02-21-2013, 01:16 PM
  #392
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Nash at 7.8 in Columbus was widely seen as being overpaid.

Nash at 7.8 in NY, whats the verdict thus far?

Hes supposed to take that next step as a player here, right? Hes in pretty elite company with that cap hit. Wouldnt we expect elite production? He is now the go-to guy on the team (depending on who you ask)

As Antithesis already pointed out, Gaborik at UFA cost of 7.5/no assets > Nash at RFA cost of 7.8/assets.

Nash is primarily a goal scorer, a former 40 goal guy whos numbers have declined steadily since. Im still holding out that he will eventually bust out and get to 35-40 at some point, because after 15 games, its all you can do.

Like I said before, ive never ever seen someone who doesnt score given so much sluck as Nash, especially in NY.

I love the way Nash plays. Im just pointing the double standard out. Maybe its there because of his style of play and nothing else.


Last edited by Heyoooo*: 02-21-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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02-21-2013, 01:20 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Its never been more okay to not score goals than when Nash doesnt. I have never seen a player given more slack on this board than that. Especially at 7.8 million.

"He looks like Jagr out there!"
I understand a goal scorer has to score, but he's been our best offensive player even when he's not putting up points (which even then he's our most consistent point scorer)

He does play like Jagr too. Big body, strong on the puck, silky smooth hands... No one else on this team can split D like he can, or create plays like can. The fact that the goal scoring is overlooked is because when he's not scoring goals he's creating other chances for us on a nightly basis. We need him. And I personally think the goal will come, it's not like he looks depleted and lost out there.

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02-21-2013, 01:23 PM
  #394
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Im convinced as well.

DZ isnt particularly great at any single attribute. Maybe turnovers.
Now I've heard it all. MDZ is not great at any single attribute. And if he isn't great he certainly is pretty damn good. These boards never cease to amaze me.

RoR has quite honestly absurd contract demands coupled with him thinking he was owed the captaincy of the team at just 22 years old. 22 years old and he already sounds like a prima donna. The way some of you talk about him you'd think were getting a guaranteed 70 point player.

And all the maximizing your assets with a salary cap talk is hypocracy at its best. Lets trade MDZ whos on a cheap contract for a forward with just 3 years experience asking for $4-$5 million.

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02-21-2013, 01:24 PM
  #395
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DZ is not a top pairing guy on any team with legit Cup aspirations today...

Oh, you mean when he was 19 and 20? Where's the criticism when MDZ was an utter disgrace in year 2? Both guys have come around and grown as players. You're free to believe that MDZ has more value, but you've stuck your heels in the groud into too much of a 1 sided argument.

I honestly don't think you've ever really watched RoR.. nothing wrong with that except when you pretend you have..
MDZ was what, 12th in Norris voting last year? He was also our best defenseman for the first six or seven games of this season before hitting a slump for a couple of games. There are plenty of contending teams who would have Del Zotto on the top pair.

You want to know the difference between the progression of Del Zotto and O'Reilly? When Del Zotto progressed, it was playing with partners like Sauer, Stralman and Eminger. Decent players, but nothing special. When he DID get a good partner (Staal), he had to learn to play on the right side (which he's done well most nights--the only time it really looked bad was last year, when Staal had three quarters of his usual play and DZ was first learning how to switch sides). When O'Reilly progressed offensively, it was with the #2 overall pick skating next to him, winning the Calder and creating half of his points out of nothing.

Please stop accusing others of not watching O'Reilly if you aren't willing to acknowledge the fact that O'Reilly's offensive jump last year was fueled by Landeskog more than anything O'Reilly did. Without Landeskog, I seriously doubt that O'Reilly breaks 40 points last season.

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02-21-2013, 01:26 PM
  #396
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I understand a goal scorer has to score, but he's been our best offensive player even when he's not putting up points (which even then he's our most consistent point scorer)

He does play like Jagr too. Big body, strong on the puck, silky smooth hands... No one else on this team can split D like he can, or create plays like can. The fact that the goal scoring is overlooked is because when he's not scoring goals he's creating other chances for us on a nightly basis. We need him. And I personally think the goal will come, it's not like he looks depleted and lost out there.

He does, but Jagr obviously put up elite point production. Nash we are seeing flashes of what he can do if he finished.

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02-21-2013, 01:28 PM
  #397
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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Nash at 7.8 in Columbus was widely seen as being overpaid.
He was paid like a franchise player which he was for the Jackets.

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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Nash at 7.8 in NY, whats the verdict thus far?
He's a better and more complete player than I thought he would be. It's a unique season in that it's short and there really wasn't a training camp. He's been better than I thought he might have been.

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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
Hes supposed to take that next step as a player here, right? Hes in pretty elite company with that cap hit. Wouldnt we expect elite production? He is now the go-to guy on the team (depending on who you ask)
Was I expecting him to take the next step? I might argue he has. He's making the players around him better and has been dominant at time.



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Like I said before, ive never ever seen someone who doesnt score given so much sluck as Nash, especially in NY.
He's been their best player game in and game out. He's been the most consistent offense producer they've had. What is there to cut him slack?

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Originally Posted by Heyoooo View Post
I love the way Nash plays. Im just pointing the double standard out. Maybe its there because of his style of play and nothing else.
Again, he's making the players around him better. I don't think you can say that about Gaborik.

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02-21-2013, 01:29 PM
  #398
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So now the number of people saying things that aren't true makes it more valid? Boom Boom, this board, particularly over the last couple of years, has become such a "mob-mentality" that I usually just roll my eyes at group-think posts and decide not to bother. I doubt I'm the only one.

This board LOVES to pick one player, informally decide on a "meme" for that player, and then repeat it until it suddenly becomes the "truth." Last year, it was Dubinsky, with the combo of "he's a dumb player" and "he doesn't know what kind of player he is." Neither label was true, but one or two guys started saying it, and the crowd that got pissed off by his holdout combined with the crowd that was in love with Nash started repeating it all the time.

Now, it's Del Zotto's turn. It's another perfect storm. There are some guys who have never liked the kid for some reason (no idea why, but like Dubinsky, there's a crowd of posters here who have been in favor of trading Del Zotto since mid-way through his rookie year). Once again, we see the meme building--just look through this thread. Suddenly, he's "not a real puck mover" and he's "inconsistent." One guy said it a few times, and then others latched on. It's absurd.

I have seen O'Reilly play. He's VERY good defensively (though not as good as Callahan, IMO--in fairness, he's much younger and playing the tougher position, but Cally is more decisive/instinctive in his defensive play--RO'R has a tendency to over-think things from time to time, which worries me at playoff time). Offensively? He's capable, but he's nothing special. On the offensive side of the puck, he reminds me a lot of Dom Moore (the Toronto/Tampa Bay version--not when he was with us). He's a decent passer, but doesn't really have a shooter's instincts. Last season, I saw a player who benefitted from having a phenomenal player on his wing. Landeskog made all kinds of space for O'Reilly last season, driving to the net, drawing multiple defenders and then dishing the puck to O'Reilly for the easy tap in. Alternately, O'Reilly would frequently give the puck to Landeskog, who would make a goal happen (resulting in an "assist" for O'Reilly, even though the pass rarely had much to do with the goal).

That doesn't make O'Reilly trash. He's still a good player and I would still love to have him on the Rangers third line. But he's NOT a #1 center and he never will be. He doesn't have the offensive skill to fill that role, and he's never shown that level of skill at any level.



You just did what Kwayry pointed out earlier, btw. You characterize MDZ by what he is right now, while valuing O'Reilly by what you think he could be. Frankly, the fact that you think O'Reilly can put up 60+ points "without question" and that he has "offensive swagger" (swagger is the last word I would use to describe O'Reilly's offense) makes me seriously question your take on the player.

I said it earlier--a 40+ point defenseman is MUCH rarer than a 50+ point forward. Last year, there were only 19 of the former and nearly 100 of the latter. The only way that you can argue that RO'R has more value than MDZ is to play prognosticator and assume that you know that Del Zotto will never progress and the O'Reilly will hit a ceiling that he has never been projected to have. Frankly, THAT, to me, sounds like the "fairytale, delusional world"--regardless of how many people are saying it.
Hit the nail on the head in terms of board groupthink and why the ROR trade might not be such a great idea.

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02-21-2013, 01:29 PM
  #399
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Now I've heard it all. MDZ is not great at any single attribute. And if he isn't great he certainly is pretty damn good. These boards never cease to amaze me.

RoR has quite honestly absurd contract demands coupled with him thinking he was owed the captaincy of the team at just 22 years old. 22 years old and he already sounds like a prima donna. The way some of you talk about him you'd think were getting a guaranteed 70 point player.

And all the maximizing your assets with a salary cap talk is hypocracy at its best. Lets trade MDZ whos on a cheap contract for a forward with just 3 years experience asking for $4-$5 million.

They never cease to amaze me either.

What single attribute is Del Zotto great at? Im talking something irreplacable.

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02-21-2013, 01:31 PM
  #400
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We have four guys paid like franchise players, 3 of which were the big time guys at their former teams. Lundqvist, Gaborik, Richards, Nash. Of the three, the only one I am genuinely concerned about right now is Richards. Gaborik is the same as he always was. Nash never should have expected to be a 40 goal scorer here. He is a 35-40-75 guy, approximately.

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