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GDT: India Labour Strike

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Old
02-20-2013, 12:33 AM
  #26
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
Yeah, they should learn from us. After all, when we brought down all the trade barriers, castrated the unions, and wiped out the welfare state, our living standards shot way up, right?
LOL

Actually they should be learning from "us" (who ever us is). Doesn't mean they have to copy "us" so your false dichotomy is wrong.

In fact Indians are some of the most capitalistic oriented cultures.

The try to "protect" their own industries/businesses which really only results in lower quality offerings for masses. Much of the protection is under the guise of protecting the little man (and the little man willfully supports this) but its more to do with protecting the corrupt business interests.

I can assure you as "bad" as Americans (Canadians, Europeans etc) are, Americans care a hell of a lot more about Americans than Indians care about Indians.

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02-20-2013, 01:22 AM
  #27
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Looks like the strike is about inflation, and public employees want hike because of that (Isn't that just going to make things worse?).

Too much economic disparity over there. Poor is pretty poor (like slumdog millionaire), and rich is richer than someone over here (Canada).

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02-20-2013, 01:26 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
Looks like the strike is about inflation, and public employees want hike because of that (Isn't that just going to make things worse?).

Too much economic disparity over there. Poor is pretty poor (like slumdog millionaire), and rich is richer than someone over here (Canada).
The biggest issue with India is its inefficiencies. Pretty much ever process that people take for granted in Canada etc is totally inefficient in India.

That will remain the case as India has a culture of "giving jobs". In stead of having an efficient piece of technology do the job you have people doing it.

Need a hole dug in the ground. Dont bother with an excavator/digger just get 30 labourers with shovels.

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02-20-2013, 01:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
The biggest issue with India is its inefficiencies. Pretty much ever process that people take for granted in Canada etc is totally inefficient in India.

That will remain the case as India has a culture of "giving jobs". In stead of having an efficient piece of technology do the job you have people doing it.

Need a hole dug in the ground. Dont bother with an excavator/digger just get 30 labourers with shovels.
Well, its simply logic of supply and demand.

Over here, labour is not easily available, but material is. Hence, technology is preferred (as it is cheap).

In India, labour is easily available as compared to material. Hence, labour is preferred (as it is cheap).

I personally am not really a big fan of having of having technology everywhere, even when work can be done without it. Classic example of that is I recall from movie Shawshank Redemption: The guy after coming out of prison gets job of grocery packer at grocery store. These days, the job is gone because the person got replaced by conveyer belt where customer can pack it himself. A job lost there due to technology, no?

(Don't hold too rigid an opinion of me because I am a robotics guy )

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02-20-2013, 01:35 AM
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And as far as inefficiencies is concerned, I agree. Most of it comes from the lust for bribe though. Give them money and they work faster than anyone (Not something I agree with though).

Some inefficiencies over here in Canada are just ridiculous though.

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02-20-2013, 01:35 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
Yeah, they should learn from us. After all, when we brought down all the trade barriers, castrated the unions, and wiped out the welfare state, our living standards shot way up, right?
When did we castrate unions and wipe out the welfare state?

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02-20-2013, 01:44 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
Well, its simply logic of supply and demand.

Over here, labour is not easily available, but material is. Hence, technology is preferred (as it is cheap).

In India, labour is easily available as compared to material. Hence, labour is preferred (as it is cheap).

I personally am not really a big fan of having of having technology everywhere, even when work can be done without it. Classic example of that is I recall from movie Shawshank Redemption: The guy after coming out of prison gets job of grocery packer at grocery store. These days, the job is gone because the person got replaced by conveyer belt where customer can pack it himself. A job lost there due to technology, no?

(Don't hold too rigid an opinion of me because I am a robotics guy )
The problem is relying on humans leads to human error. I'm not saying people should be replaced by robots etc but there is a lack of will to modernize because well "we can just get a bunch of people to do it for beans". Politically they need to provide "work" even if its useless inefficient work so that people are "happy". And so the vicious cycle continues.

Take a look at Indian trains. Totally amazing that they have such an extensive network that moves that many people. But then you look at the others side of it and realize the trains are pieces of ****. They're dirty, lack any kind of modern technology etc. India has had trains for how long yet all they've done is manage to "maintain" the status quo when instead we should be reading about how Indian train technology is a threat to German and Japanese train industries, yet its China that is the threat.

Instead of building high knowledge based train development centers, they've built unskilled labour factories that reproduce the same train parts they did probably in the 1960s.

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02-20-2013, 01:46 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Penalty Kill Icing View Post
And as far as inefficiencies is concerned, I agree. Most of it comes from the lust for bribe though. Give them money and they work faster than anyone (Not something I agree with though).

Some inefficiencies over here in Canada are just ridiculous though.
Working faster isnt better though. Dont get me started in plumbers and electricians in India. Lol

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02-20-2013, 03:11 PM
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The humanist doesn't prefer technology to take jobs, but the consumer does. Companies can't afford to have items manufactured by humans because then there will be a multitude of problems - namely inconsistencies and resource planning.

I would imagine at some point the technology will occupy more jobs than the human and that will likely be a difficult time. The owners of the technology (manufacturers) will hold most of the planet's income.

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02-20-2013, 04:32 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ThatWasNoAccident View Post
The humanist doesn't prefer technology to take jobs, but the consumer does. Companies can't afford to have items manufactured by humans because then there will be a multitude of problems - namely inconsistencies and resource planning.

I would imagine at some point the technology will occupy more jobs than the human and that will likely be a difficult time. The owners of the technology (manufacturers) will hold most of the planet's income.
and cue a global revolution.

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02-20-2013, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Nieds work ethic View Post
and cue a global revolution.
A guy I worked with has a farm which he bought for reasonable money and has all eco-energy with a small wind farm, solar panels and a water turbine he uses in the adjacent river on the backside of his property. he also heats in the winter only via wood stove. This is the most logical solution to me.

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02-20-2013, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory Trevor View Post
A guy I worked with has a farm which he bought for reasonable money and has all eco-energy with a small wind farm, solar panels and a water turbine he uses in the adjacent river on the backside of his property. he also heats in the winter only via wood stove. This is the most logical solution to me.
I have a friend that does the same thing. He also has a geothermal heating / air conditioning system in his house which works phenomenally. Town of Fenner, NY is ideal for wind power. I wonder how many renewable resource energies are being utilised in India.

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02-20-2013, 05:50 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
When did we castrate unions and wipe out the welfare state?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act this and anti-union rhetoric in the 80's has allowed "Right to Work" laws to become the rule rather than the exception. I don't believe that it took 3 attempts for the average person to get SSI benefits in the old days, either.

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02-20-2013, 10:01 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Working faster isnt better though. Dont get me started in plumbers and electricians in India. Lol
Good luck finding electricians like these elsewhere.


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02-20-2013, 10:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by ThatWasNoAccident View Post
The humanist doesn't prefer technology to take jobs, but the consumer does. Companies can't afford to have items manufactured by humans because then there will be a multitude of problems - namely inconsistencies and resource planning.

I would imagine at some point the technology will occupy more jobs than the human and that will likely be a difficult time. The owners of the technology (manufacturers) will hold most of the planet's income.
Completely disagree. Eventually, the one with natural resources will hold the cards. Technology is copied sooner or later.

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02-20-2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hugh Mann View Post
Yeah, they should learn from us. After all, when we brought down all the trade barriers, castrated the unions, and wiped out the welfare state, our living standards shot way up, right?
I wouldn't say they should learn from us until our own citizens know how to differentiate correlation and causation.

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02-20-2013, 11:35 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by ThatWasNoAccident View Post
The humanist doesn't prefer technology to take jobs, but the consumer does.
Ah the old humanist argument which is really a way of presenting the argument of "good vs evil."

The "humanist" would probably argue that consumers or more correctly those using their resources to purchase said resource are also human and therefore deserve "fair treatment".

As for technology taking jobs this is an old and tired argument. The fact is jobs change. As man has found better more efficient and effective ways of doing a particular job the people have shifted to doing other types of work or jobs.

Quote:
Companies can't afford to have items manufactured by humans because then there will be a multitude of problems - namely inconsistencies and resource planning.
In terms of costs its actually cheaper to use manual labour. And thats part of the problem. Its cheaper to have 30 labourers to dig a hole (and assume all the safety risk) in India than it is to buy and maintain an excavator or digger.

Quote:
I would imagine at some point the technology will occupy more jobs than the human and that will likely be a difficult time. The owners of the technology (manufacturers) will hold most of the planet's income.
Huh?

We are moving towards some sort of domination by those holding the gold?

At what point in our history has this not been the case?

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02-20-2013, 11:41 PM
  #43
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Completely disagree. Eventually, the one with natural resources will hold the cards. Technology is copied sooner or later.
Well those with the desired or needed natural resources have always held the cards.

I believe the Mali Empire got its power from gold and salt. At a time when salt was a precious resource.

Man has always used technology for his advantage and to better his life. Whether it was using a goat bladder to hold and carry water over great distances instead of relying on unreliable water sources along the way or using oxen and a plough share to sow a field instead of 30 unreliable dudes on their hands and knees.

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02-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Cory Trevor View Post
A guy I worked with has a farm which he bought for reasonable money and has all eco-energy with a small wind farm, solar panels and a water turbine he uses in the adjacent river on the backside of his property. he also heats in the winter only via wood stove. This is the most logical solution to me.
Sounds cool. I wouldn't mind that myself. Is he completely off grid? Or is he still getting "assistance" from the municipality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatWasNoAccident View Post
I have a friend that does the same thing. He also has a geothermal heating / air conditioning system in his house which works phenomenally. Town of Fenner, NY is ideal for wind power. I wonder how many renewable resource energies are being utilized in India.
The problem with much of renewable energy sources is reliability. Much like the idea of self sufficiency and farming for yourself. The idea sounds great until you actually have to rely on your farming/hunting for subsistence and deal with the unreliability that is mother nature.


Renewable resource energies in India are far and few between. Although there are some small "pocket" that use things like cow dung for gas and fuel.

Much of indias energy comes from coal and the place is a polluted mess. As soon as you step off the plane you can smell the coal and see the smog.

The biggest problem again which is related to what I mentioned before is indias lack of technology friendliness means there isnt much hope in the near future that they will embrace or be able to embrace the technology that is renewable energy.

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02-20-2013, 11:58 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by DanielBryanRoleModel View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act this and anti-union rhetoric in the 80's has allowed "Right to Work" laws to become the rule rather than the exception. I don't believe that it took 3 attempts for the average person to get SSI benefits in the old days, either.
Unions are still incredibly powerful and we are definitely not breaking down the welfare state.

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02-21-2013, 12:46 AM
  #46
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Sounds cool. I wouldn't mind that myself. Is he completely off grid? Or is he still getting "assistance" from the municipality?
.
Never got assistance. Did it all on his own free will of saving for 30 years in central Idaho. He'll go on Social Security in a few years once he retires. Other than that he's done it all himself. Worked in management and had his own business for 25 years and traded it in to work in the mountains at a nice ski resort just to pass the time until he finishes up his last two years of mortgage payments. Hunts and fishes when he can for his own food too. True Story.

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02-21-2013, 05:41 AM
  #47
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Never got assistance. Did it all on his own free will of saving for 30 years in central Idaho. He'll go on Social Security in a few years once he retires. Other than that he's done it all himself. Worked in management and had his own business for 25 years and traded it in to work in the mountains at a nice ski resort just to pass the time until he finishes up his last two years of mortgage payments. Hunts and fishes when he can for his own food too. True Story.
Sorry I wasnt clear but is he totally independant from the municipality for sewage, power etc?

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02-21-2013, 04:42 PM
  #48
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Sorry I wasnt clear but is he totally independant from the municipality for sewage, power etc?
Oh I got ya. Electricity is powered by his on site processes. The whole meter moving backwards thing. In the winter I think he has to pay for power a bit. The winds in central Idaho can be pretty strong sometimes. I've never been to his place so I've never seen the set up though it has been verified by some of our other former coworkers. He has a septic that he gets pumped and an out house(THIS IS OUT HOUSE!) just in case.

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02-21-2013, 07:12 PM
  #49
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Cool.

Now with all the free time from not working, they can go swimming in the Ganges River!!!! YEAH!!!!!

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