HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Ryan O'Reilly : Money-Money-Money-Money...Mo-ney!! Thread #6

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-21-2013, 04:05 PM
  #376
henchman24
If and if...
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,572
vCash: 500
There are a number of centers in this years draft that could fill in the #2C role in a couple years. Depending on who ROR returns it might be wise to look at one of them. MacKinnon, Lindholm, Barkov, Monahan, Shinkaruk (though I think he should be a LW), and possibly Gauthier (I'm really curious how he develops) could step in 14-15 or 15-16 and play a solid #2C sort of role. If the Avs end up picking 4, all but MacKinnon should be available. Shinkaruk and Gauthier should be available in the 10-15 range.

henchman24 is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:08 PM
  #377
henchman24
If and if...
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,572
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
You honestly think Tyler Bozak would take less money and a diminished role just so he could play in Denver...?
Yes and no. He would sign with the Avs for less than some teams. It is well known that the Avs were one of his finalists when he was coming out of Denver. He won't be signed as anything more than a #3C most anywhere in the league (maybe Florida or Phoenix he would be a #2).

henchman24 is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:12 PM
  #378
Barklez
Registered User
 
Barklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toon Town
Country: Canada
Posts: 271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
And if that line of thinking doesn't work, then here's another way to look at it. We're giving up our 3rd line Center. We'll get better than a 3rd line Center in return. Oh, I know he is better than a 3rd line Center, but that's what he is here. A great 3rd line Center.

Look at what we're giving up in terms of here and now, and the role he has on this team, instead of looking at the potential he has, and the role he will play on another team.
This is how I'm looking at it, especially after seeing the Avs without him this year. If dropping O'Reilly is what it takes for Duchene to finally come into his own, it is worth the loss. Hell, if the only benefit we gain from this holdout (and likely trade) is the transformation of Duchene into a PPG+ player that has recommitted himself to the defensive side of his game as well, we still come out on top. Don't forget, around the time of the draft, Duchene was being touted as the complete, 2-way, defensively responsible center every team wants and needs.

As far as I'm concerned, on top of this re-emergence of Duchene, any substantial trade pieces we get back from this are just gravy. Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to have ROR back and I don't believe for a second that we are a better team without him, but how long did we honestly believe that Avs planned on rolling 3 scoring lines? One of Stastny or ROR was going to get moved in the next year or two anyways, putting us back in the traditional Top 6-Bottom 6 mold. If O'Reilly ends up getting moved, it simply means that he has made the decision for us. If, and/or when, he does get moved, management is going to do everything within reason to keep Stastny around. I don't buy for a second the argument that we could be left with just Duchene out of all of this in a year and a half. With O'Reilly gone, Stastny will be relieved of the same burden that O'Reilly is under right now. He will be cemented in as the Avs 2C going forward, and under a better contract will have none of the pressure that he was under in the past.

For me it looks like this..

Pre Holdout
3 Tweener scoring lines, no line with all Top 3 talent, no weak lines
1 Overachieving, pleasantly surprising 2nd round pick
1 Overpaid 1B/2A center
1 Floundering, elite talent

Post Holdout (at worst)
2 Defined scoring lines, top talent/producers no longer spread across 3 lines but concentrated on 2
1 Elite offensive talent, soaking up minutes, finally rising to true top-line minutes and assignments
1 Overpaid 2nd line center whose future role is now clear on the Avs, can now relax and play his game
1 (or more) Wildcards

I would rather have the highly-touted, elite talent performing to his potential than suffering under a lack of ice-time because we have 2 other competent scoring centers. O'Reilly is a hell of a player, but he never had the ceiling that Duchy does. You can say that O'Reilly is the type of player that you win with all you want, but the fact of the matter is, Duchene is showing he can be that guy as well. He might not ever show the same defensive acumen, but he's proving himself to be no slouch in that department either, and it's finally looking like he's going to put up numbers that O'Reilly could only ever dream about, but that have been expected from Duchy from the get-go.

Sure, elite defensive forwards are nice to have, but it's just as easy to win with elite offense and above average defensive forwards as it is with elite defensive forwards, and average offense (Not too mention our defence which is a whole other story).

Barklez is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:20 PM
  #379
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,112
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
You honestly think Tyler Bozak would take less money and a diminished role just so he could play in Denver...?
I guess I should have stressed in a similar role however I don't think he would be offer a #1 or #2 C position with too many teams. Maybe one or two. And if Stas is traded or leaves to UFA, he would get his shot at #2C.

AllAboutAvs is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:21 PM
  #380
AslanRH
Plebeian Poster
 
AslanRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wyoming, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,807
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
You honestly think Tyler Bozak would take less money and a diminished role just so he could play in Denver...?
Not necessarily reduced money, but low-fair market. With the leafs seemingly endless searching for a #1/2 Center (and I do not mean on the HF Boards, but from inquiries the organization have made in the past) there is a possibility he will get a reduced role and comparable money in Toronto too.
Until the Leafs resign him or he signs elsewhere, I'll consider him a good target for the Avs.

AslanRH is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:51 PM
  #381
RobinDIF
Size doesn't matter!
 
RobinDIF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 8,993
vCash: 500
If the Leafs are making a BIG push for someone like Getzlaf, if he hits the market, I can very well imagine them letting Bozak go.

RobinDIF is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 04:55 PM
  #382
CobraAcesS
Registered User
 
CobraAcesS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 9,152
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Not necessarily reduced money, but low-fair market. With the leafs seemingly endless searching for a #1/2 Center (and I do not mean on the HF Boards, but from inquiries the organization have made in the past) there is a possibility he will get a reduced role and comparable money in Toronto too.
Until the Leafs resign him or he signs elsewhere, I'll consider him a good target for the Avs.
Not only is he a good target for the Avs, but my guess would be that he and his agent will be targeting the Avs as well. Unless they are absolutely unwilling to sign him or pay him close to fair market value of course.

If he was from Denver and didn't always come back during the off-season then this argument would be quite a bit more hollow. But he spends his off-seasons in Denver, and knows quite a few of the Avs players as a result.

With Bozak & Downie on the third line they would also be a strong enough third line that they won't be only getting 11-13 minutes a night but more like 15-18 as well.

CobraAcesS is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:11 PM
  #383
Avsboy
#TheStructure
 
Avsboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barklez View Post
This is how I'm looking at it, especially after seeing the Avs without him this year. If dropping O'Reilly is what it takes for Duchene to finally come into his own, it is worth the loss. Hell, if the only benefit we gain from this holdout (and likely trade) is the transformation of Duchene into a PPG+ player that has recommitted himself to the defensive side of his game as well, we still come out on top. Don't forget, around the time of the draft, Duchene was being touted as the complete, 2-way, defensively responsible center every team wants and needs.

As far as I'm concerned, on top of this re-emergence of Duchene, any substantial trade pieces we get back from this are just gravy.
Your whole argument is predicated on Duchene rising as a superstar only if RoR is dropped. I don't buy that; Duchene was determined to get in shape beforehand.

Still, a good post.

Avsboy is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:15 PM
  #384
Barklez
Registered User
 
Barklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toon Town
Country: Canada
Posts: 271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avsboy View Post
Your whole argument is predicated on Duchene rising as a superstar only if RoR is dropped. I don't buy that; Duchene was determined to get in shape beforehand.

Still, a good post.
Thanks, I do agree that he had already dedicated himself towards this improvement in the offseason before ROR's absence, but I think he needed this extra ice time to really shine.

Barklez is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:25 PM
  #385
AslanRH
Plebeian Poster
 
AslanRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wyoming, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,807
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barklez View Post
Thanks, I do agree that he had already dedicated himself towards this improvement in the offseason before ROR's absence, but I think he needed this extra ice time to really shine.
And there is a clear definition of roles this year with the centers. Not saying Dutch would have not won the 1C claim easily with his play even with ROR on the team, but Stazz is not really a threat to Dutch nor is Stazz threatened by Mitchell. Seems to make for good team Synergy!

AslanRH is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #386
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 13,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
Yes and no. He would sign with the Avs for less than some teams. It is well known that the Avs were one of his finalists when he was coming out of Denver. He won't be signed as anything more than a #3C most anywhere in the league (maybe Florida or Phoenix he would be a #2).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
I guess I should have stressed in a similar role however I don't think he would be offer a #1 or #2 C position with too many teams. Maybe one or two. And if Stas is traded or leaves to UFA, he would get his shot at #2C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Not necessarily reduced money, but low-fair market. With the leafs seemingly endless searching for a #1/2 Center (and I do not mean on the HF Boards, but from inquiries the organization have made in the past) there is a possibility he will get a reduced role and comparable money in Toronto too.
Until the Leafs resign him or he signs elsewhere, I'll consider him a good target for the Avs.
I think he'll get more money and a better gig elsewhere--there are plenty of teams desperate for a good center with an all-around game. I imagine Florida and Calgary will be at least two of the teams vying for his services. Those aren't great destinations, but if Toronto fails to retain him (and I imagine they'll succeed in doing so) I don't know if the lure of playing in Denver will be enough. I'd certainly take him, but I don't see it happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barklez View Post
Thanks, I do agree that he had already dedicated himself towards this improvement in the offseason before ROR's absence, but I think he needed this extra ice time to really shine.
O'Reilly's presence would only make Duchene's job that much easier. Duchene would get that much more power play time and that much less penalty kill time, and Sacco would be able to use him for most all offensive and neutral zone draws. Would it mean less ice time? Probably, but he'd be put in a far easier position to succeed. To be honest, I don't think Duchene would have his minutes cut all that much--I think Stastny would be the guy who saw his role and time on ice diminish. Of course this is Sacco we're talking about, so who knows.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:30 PM
  #387
hawk30
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Aurora, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
I think it's hard to understate how important the extra playing minutes are for Duchene and Stastny. I'm thrilled seeing them get PK time again this year. They should both be in the 20-22 minute range every night.

hawk30 is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:37 PM
  #388
AslanRH
Plebeian Poster
 
AslanRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wyoming, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,807
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk30 View Post
I think it's hard to understate how important the extra playing minutes are for Duchene and Stastny. I'm thrilled seeing them get PK time again this year. They should both be in the 20-22 minute range every night.
Occasional penalty kill time I think is great, but not every kill. That scares me a bit. I think back to how Forsberg/Sakic would kill once or twice a game and try and generate offense shorthanded.

AslanRH is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:39 PM
  #389
henchman24
If and if...
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 19,572
vCash: 500
I think Duchene is simply one of those players that plays his best when he is 'the man.' That means being relied on and thriving in every situation. If ROR was here the minutes would be split up more and Duchene wouldn't be as much of 'the man' as the Avs are currently constructed. I don't think there would be a way that he would be on the PK if ROR started the season with us nor would he be getting the other team's top lines.

henchman24 is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 05:58 PM
  #390
Barklez
Registered User
 
Barklez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Toon Town
Country: Canada
Posts: 271
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I think Duchene is simply one of those players that plays his best when he is 'the man.' That means being relied on and thriving in every situation. If ROR was here the minutes would be split up more and Duchene wouldn't be as much of 'the man' as the Avs are currently constructed. I don't think there would be a way that he would be on the PK if ROR started the season with us nor would he be getting the other team's top lines.
Exactly this. We're seeing it to a lesser degree with Barrie right now too if you ask me. Guys that are responding to increases in responsibility in ways that they simply weren't before it was forced upon them.

Barklez is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 06:12 PM
  #391
hawk30
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Aurora, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 512
vCash: 500
PK for those guys only scares me because of injuries - I recall Stastny breaking his arm (I think) blocking a shot on the PK a few years back.

The offense isn't really important. I think the enormous benefit, as henchman and Barklez suggest, is that it keeps them engaged and important to the outcome. They derive a lot of momentum from it.

hawk30 is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 06:20 PM
  #392
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 13,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
I think Duchene is simply one of those players that plays his best when he is 'the man.' That means being relied on and thriving in every situation. If ROR was here the minutes would be split up more and Duchene wouldn't be as much of 'the man' as the Avs are currently constructed. I don't think there would be a way that he would be on the PK if ROR started the season with us nor would he be getting the other team's top lines.
Even though I partially agree that he loves the added responsibility (and maybe even the added challenge of proving that this team can do it without O'Reilly) he looked like he got pretty gassed on a few occasions last night. If there were a center who could take some of those defensive zone draws and PK time you'd see even more production from Duchene.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 06:25 PM
  #393
Avs_19
Peter the Great
 
Avs_19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,758
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslanrh View Post
Occasional penalty kill time I think is great, but not every kill. That scares me a bit. I think back to how Forsberg/Sakic would kill once or twice a game and try and generate offense shorthanded.
Forsberg/Sakic played a lot on the PK early in their careers. I think they might have even led the Avs forwards in SH ice time a couple of times. I remember them always being out there.

I hope Duchene remains one of our main penalty killers. He's a threat out there and I think it'll make him a better player. You might have to pick your spots and at certain times try to save your top players for even strength but I have no problem with Stastny, Duchene, and Landeskog being three of our top penalty killers.

Avs_19 is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 06:28 PM
  #394
Freudian
Clearly deranged
 
Freudian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Sweden
Posts: 37,299
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Even though I partially agree that he loves the added responsibility (and maybe even the added challenge of proving that this team can do it without O'Reilly) he looked like he got pretty gassed on a few occasions last night. If there were a center who could take some of those defensive zone draws and PK time you'd see even more production from Duchene.
There were three forwards playing more minutes/game last year than Duchene is playing this year. And this is a compressed season. The workload is too high and it's no wonder he fades a bit in third periods.

When Landeskog comes back, he'll probably take some of Duchene's PK minutes.

I think if we get Duchene down from 21:44 (not to mention he's been playing 22-24 minutes lately) to just over 20 minutes, it'll be fine.

Freudian is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 07:51 PM
  #395
Muffin
Avalanche Flavoured
 
Muffin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,042
vCash: 500
Saw this on Dater's twitter:

Why hasn't O'Reilly tweeted in a while?
Because he's over the character limit , sorry but i thought that was hilarious.

Muffin is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 07:56 PM
  #396
Foppa2118
GoDutchyGoDutchyGo
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 25,306
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
There were three forwards playing more minutes/game last year than Duchene is playing this year. And this is a compressed season. The workload is too high and it's no wonder he fades a bit in third periods.

When Landeskog comes back, he'll probably take some of Duchene's PK minutes.

I think if we get Duchene down from 21:44 (not to mention he's been playing 22-24 minutes lately) to just over 20 minutes, it'll be fine.
I don't think that will cut down on them. Duchene is out there on the PK for faceoffs, Landy won't take over there.

They need a 4th line PK center to help him out, because it doesn't appear to be a strength for Mitchell. As good as he's been on the 3rd line, I wish he was a bit better defensively.

Foppa2118 is online now  
Old
02-21-2013, 07:56 PM
  #397
Bordeleau Of Blood
Archangel
 
Bordeleau Of Blood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 2,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
Saw this on Dater's twitter:

Why hasn't O'Reilly tweeted in a while?
Because he's over the character limit , sorry but i thought that was hilarious.
Nice.

Bordeleau Of Blood is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 08:23 PM
  #398
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 13,171
vCash: 500
That's awesome.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 08:40 PM
  #399
DerkyMoeDiggs
Registered User
 
DerkyMoeDiggs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Posts: 8,513
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
I don't think 1A, 1B, and 1C works. Not enough ice time to keep everyone happy. You end up with players that either don't produce at their max potential due to limited ice time, or you get guys that throw a tantrum about the ice time (and demand a trade, one way or another, when it's time to sign a contract). That's why the vast majority of teams -- particularly the successful ones -- go with the more traditional top 6 / bottom 6 recipe.

Stastny leaving is pure speculation. Have you actually seen anything that insinuates that he wants to walk? Or that management has no desire to resign him?
But its what we had, i'm not saying its what we want, but its what we had with the 3 centres. Also, its no shocker that Stastny has regressed since Sacco has become head coach, and that his buddies Galiardi and Stewart were traded, that isn't exactly great to see if you're Paul. So maybe he doesn't want to be an Av if Sacco stays. Pure speculation, but that's what I think

DerkyMoeDiggs is offline  
Old
02-21-2013, 09:13 PM
  #400
Rhaego
Registered User
 
Rhaego's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 6,646
vCash: 500
So Ottawa is dead, so there either going to outank us











or they are going to push really hard to get O'Reilly to save their season.

Rhaego is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.