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What would it take to get Bergeron from Boston

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03-23-2005, 09:12 AM
  #126
cneely
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Oh yes, and BTW, I do have a Patrice Bergeron wall paper....

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03-23-2005, 10:00 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bruins19
Ah, here is a fact you don't know. Rolston was a PP QB for most of his time with Boston. Some of his assists came from there. Rolston is NOT a playmaker. Watch the guy play, he does not play like a playmaker.
Sigh. This silly issue again....

I never said Rolston was a high level playmaker. I simply disputed the claim that he was a horrible passer.

You don't average 30 - 40 assists a year simply by collecting points from tip-ins on the pp.

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03-23-2005, 10:02 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1
I would. Zherdev is flat out great w/ the puck. He goes to high traffic areas and has great vision and a great shot. I would predict that he will do very well in Columbus next year. Shoot, if he had been over all year, I think he would have challenged for the Calder.
Completely agree. Last year was such a deep year in terms of rookie performances that many excellent young players got overlooked.

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03-23-2005, 10:16 AM
  #129
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I traded some major assets to get Zherdev in my keeper pool.
He should be a good one.

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03-23-2005, 10:18 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Sigh. This silly issue again....

I never said Rolston was a high level playmaker. I simply disputed the claim that he was a horrible passer.

You don't average 30 - 40 assists a year simply by collecting points from tip-ins on the pp.
Come on Darth, you're backpedalling. You're arguement was that he was a superior linemate who was, at least in part, responsible for Bergeron's offensive numbers.

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03-23-2005, 10:35 AM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
Come on Darth, you're backpedalling. You're arguement was that he was a superior linemate who was, at least in part, responsible for Bergeron's offensive numbers.
Hard to have much respect for a poster who tries to prove his point by distorting what other posters have to say.

"Rolston has had multiple seasons in the NHL with over 30 assists. Hard to argue that he "can't pass." Rolston is also a much more talented player than the guys that Malone, Hunter, and Stajan (and other impressive rookies) played with regularly."

Where exactly did I claim he was 1) Responsible for Bergeron's numbers, 2) Superior to anyone other than the third liners some of these othes had to play with. My only point that some of you can't seem to let go was that the idea that Begeron got lots of points while playing with a guy who can't pass at all is nonsense. He had competent, if not stellar linemanes. His linemates where certainly on par, and probably superior to, the guys on lines with Malone, Stajan, Hunter, etc.

Stop lying about my posts and distorting what I had to say.

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03-23-2005, 10:51 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
best couple lines in this entire thread.. and this is one of those threads common sense should be telling you not to start..

Well, I really don't mind the Boston homerism. You post a trade thread about a beloved player on ANY team in the league, and you're bound to get some ridiculously over the top proposals from fans of that team. But what I didn't expect was for it to degenerate into a Bergeron v. Malkin thread or whether or not Rolston can pass (for the record, he's a decent, not great, not awful, passer). I just wanted some thoughts from some UNbiased posters on what Bergeron would cost.

I thought about making a poll after some of the absurd responses in here, but ultimately decided it would be pointless.

edit: and for the record, I'm well aware ot the fact that any team that wanted Bergeron would have to overpay big time to get him. But you can say the same thing for Malone, Whitney, and Malkin.


Last edited by CRUNK JUICE: 03-23-2005 at 10:58 AM.
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03-23-2005, 11:01 AM
  #133
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And I'd like to ask one more time for emphasis: Samsonov had a much better season as an 18 year old than Thornton. Who's better now? Bergeron was much better at 18 than Rick Nash. Who's better now?

I've asked this question on these boards 4352435 times and have yet to get an answer. Can someone please humor me and give it a shot?

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03-23-2005, 11:02 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Sigh. This silly issue again....

I never said Rolston was a high level playmaker. I simply disputed the claim that he was a horrible passer.

You don't average 30 - 40 assists a year simply by collecting points from tip-ins on the pp.
It was constantly debated in Boston as to whether Brian would be better suited as a LW'er than a Centre mainly because of his lack of passing skills and possession of a hard (yet unnacurate) shot.

Gotta go with Bruwinz37 on this one Darth.

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Old
03-23-2005, 11:06 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac21
It was constantly debated in Boston as to whether Brian would be better suited as a LW'er than a Centre mainly because of his lack of passing skills and possession of a hard (yet unnacurate) shot.

Gotta go with Bruwinz37 on this one Darth.
Actually, I think what TSN had to say is accurate. He is not a natural playmaker. I wouldn't say he has "terrible passing skills" though. I think he is competent in that domain, particularly for a third liner. He may not have the passing skills to be a high level top six player, or even a good center, but that is another issue.

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03-23-2005, 11:08 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
Well, I really don't mind the Boston homerism. You post a trade thread about a beloved player on ANY team in the league, and you're bound to get some ridiculously over the top proposals from fans of that team. But what I didn't expect was for it to degenerate into a Bergeron v. Malkin thread or whether or not Rolston can pass (for the record, he's a decent, not great, not awful, passer). I just wanted some thoughts from some UNbiased posters on what Bergeron would cost.

I thought about making a poll after some of the absurd responses in here, but ultimately decided it would be pointless.

edit: and for the record, I'm well aware ot the fact that any team that wanted Bergeron would have to overpay big time to get him. But you can say the same thing for Malone, Whitney, and Malkin.
Excellent post. Sorry we all allowed this to degenerate, and I apologize for my role.

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03-23-2005, 11:11 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Sigh. This silly issue again....

I never said Rolston was a high level playmaker. I simply disputed the claim that he was a horrible passer.

You don't average 30 - 40 assists a year simply by collecting points from tip-ins on the pp.
Since I am on ignore can someone tell Darth "I make stuff up when I am wrong" Milbury that Brian Rolston has averaged 27 assists per season since he started playing in the NHL full time?

He is a bad passer, period. I have heard of some people getting angry about being wrong, but this is a bit outrageous, no?

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03-23-2005, 11:13 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hard to have much respect for a poster who tries to prove his point by distorting what other posters have to say.

"Rolston has had multiple seasons in the NHL with over 30 assists. Hard to argue that he "can't pass." Rolston is also a much more talented player than the guys that Malone, Hunter, and Stajan (and other impressive rookies) played with regularly."

Where exactly did I claim he was 1) Responsible for Bergeron's numbers, 2) Superior to anyone other than the third liners some of these othes had to play with. My only point that some of you can't seem to let go was that the idea that Begeron got lots of points while playing with a guy who can't pass at all is nonsense. He had competent, if not stellar linemanes. His linemates where certainly on par, and probably superior to, the guys on lines with Malone, Stajan, Hunter, etc.

Stop lying about my posts and distorting what I had to say.
I'm not distorting what you said Darth. Maybe I misworded. You were using the fact that "Rolston is also a much more talented player than the guys that Malone, Hunter, and Stajan (and other impressive rookies) played with regularly" as at least partial justification for his offensive output.

Is that fair to say?

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Old
03-23-2005, 11:14 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by PapaBear
OK

Kobasew, Phaneuf and 2nd.
I'm all over that one.

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03-23-2005, 11:15 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Actually, I think what TSN had to say is accurate. He is not a natural playmaker. I wouldn't say he has "terrible passing skills" though. I think he is competent in that domain, particularly for a third liner. He may not have the passing skills to be a high level top six player, or even a good center, but that is another issue.
I'll agree he's not horrible, but I really can't remember ever watching a B's game or highlights and thinking to myself "what a pass by Rolston"!

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03-23-2005, 11:15 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
I thought about making a poll after some of the absurd responses in here, but ultimately decided it would be pointless.
I thought we were having a pretty legitimate debate. You'll have to specify for me what you deem to be an absurd response.

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03-23-2005, 11:18 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Excellent post. Sorry we all allowed this to degenerate, and I apologize for my role.

Thank you very much. And thank you again for being the only one in this entire thread to understand the fact that just because a player develops earlier, doesn't mean his ceiling is higher.

For everyone else, see my question about Samsonov v. Thornton and Bergeron v. Nash. I'm still waiting on an answer folks...

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03-23-2005, 11:18 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMac21
I'll agree he's not horrible, but I really can't remember ever watching a B's game or highlights and thinking to myself "what a pass by Rolston"!
Thats the crux of my point. He isn't horrible. I think Begeron, and lots of other rookies started out on lines with competent (if not stellar) linemates. That is basically a part of breaking in in the NHL. And, while I do think Bergeron's ability to put points on the board without top six linemates is impressive, I'd say that Rolston is a higher level guy than some of the third-line players in Pitt, NY, etc.

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03-23-2005, 11:20 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
I thought we were having a pretty legitimate debate. You'll have to specify for me what you deem to be an absurd response.
Actually, I've been giving you a hard time. But, I do think many of your points make reasonable sense. And, I appreciate your ability to stay calm when I was getting snitty.

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03-23-2005, 11:21 AM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cneely
I thought we were having a pretty legitimate debate. You'll have to specify for me what you deem to be an absurd response.
No problem. The absurb responses mainly stem from when this degenerated into a Malkin v. Bergeron debate and people claiming that Bergeron was better than a whole slew of incredible prospects simply because he's had one good season in the NHL.

That said, the last few pages have been much better.

I ask again (and am fully aware of the fact that it would take a rather large overpayment), what would it take to get Bergeron out of Boston and into a Pens uniform? Remember, Malkin and Maffy aren't going anywhere and that Boston's young players aren't the only ones who'd require an overpayment.

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03-23-2005, 11:22 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Thats the crux of my point. He isn't horrible. I think Begeron, and lots of other rookies started out on lines with competent (if not stellar) linemates. That is basically a part of breaking in in the NHL. And, while I do think Bergeron's ability to put points on the board without top six linemates is impressive, I'd say that Rolston is a higher level guy than some of the third-line players in Pitt, NY, etc.
Well you said he was good and I said his assists were inflated a bit by special teams. Just looking at his time in Boston 45-50% of his assists came on special teams. On the PP he plays the point. I said that a lot of his assists came this way. You then argued that I said his assists were on tip ins, but guess what genius, you get assists if a teammate scores on the rebound of your shot too!

Brian Rolston=Bad passer/playmaker. Its ok to admit you were wrong, let the healing begin.

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03-23-2005, 11:23 AM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Thats the crux of my point. He isn't horrible. I think Begeron, and lots of other rookies started out on lines with competent (if not stellar) linemates. That is basically a part of breaking in in the NHL. And, while I do think Bergeron's ability to put points on the board without top six linemates is impressive, I'd say that Rolston is a higher level guy than some of the third-line players in Pitt, NY, etc.

I'd say Rolston is at a higher level than the 3rd line guys on just about every team. Not too many 3rd line centers can flirt with or pass the 30 goal/60 point mark every season. He's going to be awesome in the Wild's system, I think.

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03-23-2005, 11:24 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
No problem. The absurb responses mainly stem from when this degenerated into a Malkin v. Bergeron debate and people claiming that Bergeron was better than a whole slew of incredible prospects simply because he's had one good season in the NHL.

That said, the last few pages have been much better.

I ask again (and am fully aware of the fact that it would take a rather large overpayment), what would it take to get Bergeron out of Boston and into a Pens uniform? Remember, Malkin and Maffy aren't going anywhere and that Boston's young players aren't the only ones who'd require an overpayment.
Vic, the answer is that they are not good trade partners. You want an untouchable without giving up one. I am probably bias towards Bergeron but I wouldnt give him straight for Malkin either, but that is my personal preference whether I end up being wrong or not.

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03-23-2005, 11:26 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious Vic
I'd say Rolston is higher than the 3rd like guys on just about every team. Not too many 3rd line centers can flirt with or pass the 30 goal/60 point mark every season. He's going to be awesome in the Wild's system, I think.
If you watched him much of the last two years you wouldnt think so. He has really gone down hill fast. Once one of the top PK guys in the league he has even lost that. He will get by, but I dont see him cracking 20 goals again, especially in Minny.

Rolston was a personal favorite of mine during his early time in Boston due to his versatility and booming shot, but lately he led to more frustration than anything else.

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03-23-2005, 11:26 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruwinz37
Vic, the answer is that they are not good trade partners. You want an untouchable without giving up one. I am probably bias towards Bergeron but I wouldnt give him straight for Malkin either, but that is my personal preference whether I end up being wrong or not.
Thank you. There's an answer I can live with. However, I do think you're crazy if you wouldn't trade Bergeron for Malkin straight up.

(Not that I would ever even remotely consider offering Malkin)

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