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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXV

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Old
11-07-2013, 10:30 AM
  #1
Langway
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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXV

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1513841

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11-07-2013, 10:40 AM
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txpd
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mike green. fans here are going to hate him til he is gone and then wonder how he got so good once he is gone. reality. same player skating in the greener grass. to coin a phrase.

the caps offense is designed around mike green. when green is gone there wont be another offensive d to trigger that offense like he does because his skill set and ability is at a unique level in today's league. its downhill after him.

my view is that ov and backy are scoring at league leader levels. green has a lot to do with that. the pp is #1 and he is the qb. the pk is #1 and he contributes regular to that. the caps are an offensively potent team and a winning team and green plays the most minutes.

he has lead the nhl defense in goals scored 3 times in his career. this is the wrong player to constantly whine about. go back to laich or brouwer.

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11-07-2013, 10:41 AM
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"mike green. fans here are going to hate him til he is gone"

Never change Tex

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11-07-2013, 10:45 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
"mike green. fans here are going to hate him til he is gone"

Never change Tex
Yeah but TX nailed it. This is exactly what I was getting at with the comparisons to Murphy and Gonchar (also more recently Semin)

Once he is gone and succeeding elsewhere the ardent haters will never comment on it because they will have moved onto the next goat in line.

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11-07-2013, 10:53 AM
  #5
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I am not sure how downhill it is. Mike in his offensive prime, we haven't gotten out of the second around. With an offensive juggernaut which fit him perfectly.

Maybe its not too steep a hill, unless you think Green's bad habits have ruined Carlson forever. There is a reason Carlson makes 4M. You just don't get to see them showcased because Green is a fixture on the PP.

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11-07-2013, 10:58 AM
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Why are people so confident Mike Green will be an 80 point defenseman somewhere else but don't believe he'll do it here?

After the Isles game, Steven Oleksy has outscored Mike Green at even strength over the past 41 games.

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11-07-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Why are people so confident Mike Green will be an 80 point defenseman somewhere else but don't believe he'll do it here?

After the Isles game, Steven Oleksy has outscored Mike Green at even strength over the past 41 games.
How do you know Steve Oleksy wouldn't be an 85-point defensemen with PP time on another team?

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11-07-2013, 11:02 AM
  #8
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Yeah, the question you have to ask yourself about Mike Green is:

Do you think he's shown to still be 2007-10 Mike Green?

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11-07-2013, 11:06 AM
  #9
BobRouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
Why are people so confident Mike Green will be an 80 point defenseman somewhere else but don't believe he'll do it here?.
Mike Green is off to a horrific start. He's on a 60pt pace despite this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynCapsFan View Post
After the Isles game, Steven Oleksy has outscored Mike Green at even strength over the past 41 games
Can't be refuted here. Power Play points and goals shouldn't count ever. Any bum can produce on the PP. Thats why I'm a proponent of buying out Ovechkin and replacing him with Jay Beagle as the trigger man on the PP.

You do realize the even strength argument is the same one people use against Ovechkin right?

Its stupid. There have been seasons where players like Lemieux and Stamkos have scored 50% of their points on the PP.

Also Oleksy is a good player it turns out. NBTW is fuming at this thought since his contract is ruining the team.

Futhermore Green has 3 ES assists in his last 4 games. Not huge but a good trend for sure.

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11-07-2013, 11:12 AM
  #10
Mothra
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
mike green. fans here are going to hate him til he is gone and then wonder how he got so good once he is gone. reality. same player skating in the greener grass. to coin a phrase.

the caps offense is designed around mike green. when green is gone there wont be another offensive d to trigger that offense like he does because his skill set and ability is at a unique level in today's league. its downhill after him.

my view is that ov and backy are scoring at league leader levels. green has a lot to do with that. the pp is #1 and he is the qb. the pk is #1 and he contributes regular to that. the caps are an offensively potent team and a winning team and green plays the most minutes.

he has lead the nhl defense in goals scored 3 times in his career. this is the wrong player to constantly whine about. go back to laich or brouwer.
His skill set is not unique.....this isnt 3-4 years ago

To me its pretty clear he isnt the QB on the PP these days, he is more an option. The PP runs off the half-boards....that position is the QB, just like it was when Oates ran it, just from the other side. From there is where the PP runs, the main option seems to be down low...with the point and slot being secondary. When 52 gets it and makes a quick decision with the puck, pass or shoot, he is doing well.....when he hesitates it generally means they re-group and re-enter. There is nothing really unique about what he does on the PP...and he certainly isnt running it

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11-07-2013, 11:15 AM
  #11
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His skill set is not unique.....this isnt 3-4 years ago

To me its pretty clear he isnt the QB on the PP these days, he is more an option. The PP runs off the half-boards....that position is the QB, just like it was when Oates ran it, just from the other side. From there is where the PP runs, the main option seems to be down low...with the point and slot being secondary. When 52 gets it and makes a quick decision with the puck, pass or shoot, he is doing well.....when he hesitates it generally means they re-group and re-enter. There is nothing really unique about what he does on the PP...and he certainly isnt running it
Really?

How come when Green is healthy our PP ends up in the top 5 in the league and when he is not it ends in the bottom half?

You can bash on Green in his own zone. You can bash on Green for being overpaid. You can make arguments here.

Bashing on him for not being a PP QB...ummm..ok

07-08 PP ranking #8 (remember our PP took off when BB became coach and gave the reigns to Green...Poti was the QB under Hanlon)
08-09 PP ranking #2
09-10 PP ranking #1
10-11 PP ranking #16 (Green missed almost half the season)
11-12 PP ranking #18 (Green missed MORE than half the season)
12-13 PP ranking #1
13-14 PP ranking #1

I the 5 years where our PP was (is) in top form Green missed a total of 34 games.

In the 2 years where our PP was in the bottom half Green missed a total of 84 games.

In summary there is evidence to suggest that our PP goes as Green's health goes. I believe this to be irrefutable.


Last edited by BobRouse: 11-07-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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Old
11-07-2013, 11:18 AM
  #12
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Really?

How come when Green is healthy our PP ends up in the top 5 in the league and when he is not it ends in the bottom half?

You can bash on Green in his own zone. You can bash on Green for being overpaid. You can make arguments here.

Bashing on him for not being a PP QB...ummm..ok
Saying he doesnt "run the PP" is bashing him? To me....its clear the PP runs through the player on the half boards....thats the QB

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11-07-2013, 11:29 AM
  #13
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Saying he doesnt "run the PP" is bashing him? To me....its clear the PP runs through the player on the half boards....thats the QB
To me you clearly insinuated that Green is not the motor that makes the PP go. If this is not the case I apologize. It appeared to me you were suggesting we could do just as well without him.

As long as you realize his vital importance on the PP then I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I am not sure how downhill it is. Mike in his offensive prime, we haven't gotten out of the second around. With an offensive juggernaut which fit him perfectly.

Maybe its not too steep a hill, unless you think Green's bad habits have ruined Carlson forever. There is a reason Carlson makes 4M. You just don't get to see them showcased because Green is a fixture on the PP.
RH

Carlson was the PP point man in 10-11 when Green was out (until we acquired Wideman at the deadline) . I think our PP suffered.

Its not that Carlson can't run a PP its just that Mike Green he is not in that aspect of the game. There are few Dmen who are.

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11-07-2013, 11:29 AM
  #14
Mothra
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Really?

How come when Green is healthy our PP ends up in the top 5 in the league and when he is not it ends in the bottom half?

You can bash on Green in his own zone. You can bash on Green for being overpaid. You can make arguments here.

Bashing on him for not being a PP QB...ummm..ok

07-08 PP ranking #8
08-09 PP ranking #2
09-10 PP ranking #1
10-11 PP ranking #16 (Green missed almost half the season)
11-12 PP ranking #18 (Green missed MORE than half the season)
12-13 PP ranking #1
13-14 PP ranking #1

I the 5 years where our PP was (is) in top form Green missed a total of 34 games.

In the 2 years where our PP was in the bottom half Green missed a total of 84 games.

In summary there is evidence to suggest that our PP goes as Green's health goes. I believe this to be irrefutable.
What is your point here? That they arent as good when one of their top paid players is out, as he often has been? None of this has anything to do with this seasons PP, which IMO runs through the man playing on the half-boards....which should not be a surprise seeing how the coach made a HoF career out of playing that way.

Now....maybe this is a definition issue. I think of the QB of a PP as the guy/position who the play "goes through". IMO that appears to be the guy on the half boards, usually 19. Thats the QB IMO....

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11-07-2013, 11:32 AM
  #15
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What is your point here? That they arent as good when one of their top paid players is out, as he often has been? None of this has anything to do with this seasons PP, which IMO runs through the man playing on the half-boards....which should not be a surprise seeing how the coach made a HoF career out of playing that way.

Now....maybe this is a definition issue. I think of the QB of a PP as the guy/position who the play "goes through". IMO that appears to be the guy on the half boards, usually 19. Thats the QB IMO....
Traditionally the term "PP QB" refers to one of the pointmen (most cases a dman)

But it matters little. The point is that our PP is top flight when Green is on it. When he is not then its middling.

I bring stats and trends to support my choice. You bring vague opinion with little (really NONE) evidence to back it up.

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11-07-2013, 11:37 AM
  #16
Mothra
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To me you clearly insinuated that Green is not the motor that makes the PP go. If this is not the case I apologize. It appeared to me you were suggesting we could do just as well without him.

As long as you realize his vital importance on the PP then I agree.
he isnt the motor that makes it go.....he is important, yet not unique. What he does on the PP is nothing more than what you would expect a top paid offensive minded dman.

Of course its not as good without him....at least when he is not way off his game....but its not like they have a spare 6+ mil offensive minded dman to sub in when his head is in a fog....or just as realistic, when he is hurt.

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11-07-2013, 11:43 AM
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he isnt the motor that makes it go.....he is important, yet not unique. What he does on the PP is nothing more than what you would expect a top paid offensive minded dman.

Of course its not as good without him....at least when he is not way off his game....but its not like they have a spare 6+ mil offensive minded dman to sub in when his head is in a fog....or just as realistic, when he is hurt.
He isn't the motor that makes it go? What facts do you have to base it on? I clearly showed you the rankings on a yearly basis that correlated directly with Green's health.

We had Dennis Wideman here when he was out and if there is one thing that guy is good at is running a PP but our PP took a dip when he was in charge.

2 time Norris runner ups don't grow on trees. In the last ten years you can maybe point to maybe one or two other dmen who have been as prolific as him offensively.

Also last year he was on pace for close to 30 goals. A feat he accomplished a few years before that no dman has since 92-93 (?).

Yeah...not unique. Lots of dmen can do this.......

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11-07-2013, 11:44 AM
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If Green goes to the right team i think he could get offensively back to what he used to be during his best years. He just needs to pick up his game again and get paired with good shut-down D.

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11-07-2013, 11:45 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Traditionally the term "PP QB" refers to one of the pointmen (most cases a dman)

But it matters little. The point is that our PP is top flight when Green is on it. When he is not then its middling.

I bring stats and trends to support my choice. You bring vague opinion with little (really NONE) evidence to back it up.

yes....your stats about past seasons, different coaches and systems, so compelling they are....

Thought my opinion was pretty detailed actually, did I use too many words that made it "vague"

what sort of evidence would you like to see to backup my outlandish claim that the PP runs through 19....if only 19 lead the NHL in PP points

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11-07-2013, 11:50 AM
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yes....your stats about past seasons, different coaches and systems, so compelling they are....

Thought my opinion was pretty detailed actually, did I use too many words that made it "vague"

what sort of evidence would you like to see to backup my outlandish claim that the PP runs through 19....if only 19 lead the NHL in PP points
Thats what makes my stats even more compelling. Tho different coaches have been around the one constant is that our PP ranking is DIRECTLY correlated to Green's health.

Whatever "runs through" means to you is irrelevant. I'm telling you that Green is vital to the success of our PP. Without him our PP is average.

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11-07-2013, 11:53 AM
  #21
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He isn't the motor that makes it go? What facts do you have to base it on? I clearly showed you the rankings on a yearly basis that correlated directly with Green's health.
I agree.....him missing so many games, so often, has been a problem. Hopefully he can be counted on going forward to be healthy or effective when banged up but still getting a sweater

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11-07-2013, 11:57 AM
  #22
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I agree.....him missing so many games, so often, has been a problem. Hopefully he can be counted on going forward to be healthy or effective when banged up but still getting a sweater
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If Green goes to the right team i think he could get offensively back to what he used to be during his best years. He just needs to pick up his game again and get paired with good shut-down D.
Right on all counts.

We need Green to stay healthy and hope his injuries are behind him. Its trending in the right direction there so thats good news.

I also agree he would benefit greatly from a good shutdown RD partner.

I also agree he can play much better than he is right now. I believe without a doubt he will.

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11-07-2013, 11:59 AM
  #23
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What I wanted to see from Green this season was staying off IR and/or the injury list.

So far so good.

The rest will work itself out.

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11-07-2013, 12:03 PM
  #24
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Thats what makes my stats even more compelling. Tho different coaches have been around the one constant is that our PP ranking is DIRECTLY correlated to Green's health.

Whatever "runs through" means to you is irrelevant. I'm telling you that Green is vital to the success of our PP. Without him our PP is average.
The PP is clicking and 19 leads the NHL in PP points.....thats the QB of the PP. They get the puck to him....he sets the plays in motion....he is where they move the puck to settle back down....which is all I said when you went on your 52 crusade.

52 is not unique....he is an offensive minded dman. What makes him so different than Subban, Letang, Karlsson...to name a couple offensive minded guys....not to mention the all around guys that are just way better hockey players (Suter, Weber, etc)

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11-07-2013, 12:07 PM
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Yesterday I thought about Fehr and his role now.

He can sit for a while. Nothing bad from that. We have almost no depth at forwards (Beagle? Mitchell?). In case of an injury we have a quality replacement in Eric. We have enough versatile guys to offset any position loss.

I'm sure injuries will occur. So Fehr will have a chance soon enough.

Also, our only hope of depth before playoffs is Kuz. We aren't banking much cap space so it's doubtful McPhee will get another forward before TDL.

Overall all forwards depth is already on the roster.

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