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Blues Trade Proposals Part 4

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02-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  #126
HooliganX2
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Neither one of their's ceilings is worth Shattenkirk. Both of them are future 2nd line centers, not a need for us. We have no one to replace Shattenkirk.
I agree with you 100% hell there is a good chance that Shattenkirk has comparable offensive numbers to them at peak.

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02-27-2013, 03:07 PM
  #127
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I think a 2nd +/- a mid-tier prospect (not a roster player) is a more realistic price. The Blues can do a 2nd deal later one to trade a roster winger and other pieces (picks/prospects) for a top 4 LHD.

Brier can help the team, but not at a high price. I really think Philly needs to move him for salary reasons, but their fans don't get that yet. Not sure how many teams out there really have the flexibility the Blues have to take him on. And teams that he could plausibly waive his NTC for.

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02-27-2013, 03:10 PM
  #128
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After the way Armstrong deliberately targeted Shattenkirk in the EJ trade, and how well he's living up to his ceiling, and how much the Blues transformed after the trade (and it wasn't because of Stewart...though I still have high hopes for him long-term), its just ridiculous to think he'd trade Shattenkirk off. I literally can't fathom a trade where that becomes the smart thing for the Blues to do.

There's a lot of wasted breath right now on this preposterous trade. Even if you can get the value right from Philadelphia, none of those pieces are going to make the Blues end up with a better team than they have now. And most of them require the Blues to screw up their salary management going forward.

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02-27-2013, 03:19 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
After the way Armstrong deliberately targeted Shattenkirk in the EJ trade, and how well he's living up to his ceiling, and how much the Blues transformed after the trade (and it wasn't because of Stewart...though I still have high hopes for him long-term), its just ridiculous to think he'd trade Shattenkirk off. I literally can't fathom a trade where that becomes the smart thing for the Blues to do.

There's a lot of wasted breath right now on this preposterous trade. Even if you can get the value right from Philadelphia, none of those pieces are going to make the Blues end up with a better team than they have now. And most of them require the Blues to screw up their salary management going forward.
yep!

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02-27-2013, 03:27 PM
  #130
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Danny Briere is an amazing player.......when he wants to be. He has sweet sweet offensive skills.......when he wants to show them off. There are two sides to Danny Briere....the regular season Briere, and the playoff Briere.

I would love to have Briere for the playoffs. He -always- plays well when the lights are brightest. However, he's going to be another Stewart for us during the regular season, some days he looks like he could care less, and other days he looks like he should still be considered a top line primary offensive threat. I'm not sure how I feel about bringing someone like that into our organization.

His financials make sense. He's going to get paid 3 million next year and 2 million the year after that, -very- reasonable money for a second-third line winger in our system. His cap hit really won't matter for us, since we have loads of space and as a budget team, we care much more about actual $$ vs. cap $$.

He is a bit small, probably truly around 5' 8" and 175, but as I said, when he cares, his size doesn't mean anything, as he's as tenacious as anyone. I don't think he's played Center in half a decade, I'm not a big fan of moving him back there anyway, I think we should keep him on Wing, where he's had good success.

The asking price will be the limiting factor in this move. I wouldn't mind moving D'ags and maybe the Lightning's 4th for Briere. If they want AMac's expiring deal + a pick, or expiring + Dag's + pick I would accept that. Our second round pick (Slotting in at #60 of course^^) is about as high as I would go for a single pick swap.

This trade could also help on another deal, b/c now we're going to be pretty stocked on RW with Oshie/Tank/Stewart/Briere once Tank is healthy. We could seriously look at moving Stewart for that ever elusive partner for AP, or perhaps a true #1 Center. The only thing I worry about is his age, and the drop-off that can occur.

Make no mistake, come playoffs, Danny Briere is a guy you -absolutely- want on your team. He puts the puck in the net and plays with heart. It's during the regular season that he becomes....frustrating to say the least. I would personally love to have the guy, if the price is right. I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up on Stewart quite yet, but I think he's easily the odd-man out in a deal for LHD or #1 Center.

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02-27-2013, 03:28 PM
  #131
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Yep 2 Minute Minor is right.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the "Puck Daddy" guy from Yahoo the only one that threw out Shattenkirk's name? So that was just one dumbass speculating, there's no way this is even a rumor because the Blues would never even consider that.

Philly fans are going to be disappointed.

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02-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
After the way Armstrong deliberately targeted Shattenkirk in the EJ trade, and how well he's living up to his ceiling, and how much the Blues transformed after the trade (and it wasn't because of Stewart...though I still have high hopes for him long-term)
An interesting note, I'm not sure how many watched the Blues-Avalanche game a week ago or so, but they popped this stat up on the screen......since that trade, Chris Stewart is tied for #1 in goals scored on our team from then until that game. I'm not saying he's been the player we've all wanted him to be, but it is something to keep in perspective.

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02-27-2013, 03:41 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
An interesting note, I'm not sure how many watched the Blues-Avalanche game a week ago or so, but they popped this stat up on the screen......since that trade, Chris Stewart is tied for #1 in goals scored on our team from then until that game. I'm not saying he's been the player we've all wanted him to be, but it is something to keep in perspective.
But 15 of those goals were from the deadline to the end of the regular season. 15 goals in 26 games. If he was playing at that kind of a pace all the time, the idea of trading Stewart wouldn't even cross our minds, even if he wasn't playing great defense. The problem is that he had the same amount of goals in 79 games for us last year, and often seemed either uninterested, or just physically worn down.

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02-27-2013, 03:45 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
An interesting note, I'm not sure how many watched the Blues-Avalanche game a week ago or so, but they popped this stat up on the screen......since that trade, Chris Stewart is tied for #1 in goals scored on our team from then until that game. I'm not saying he's been the player we've all wanted him to be, but it is something to keep in perspective.
Yeah, that was interesting. But I don't think Stewart's goals have been the difference in the team. I do think that implies he has a place on this team going forward, especially with how he's performed this season. He's not the most critical piece, but he's more than carrying his own weight now at least.

Shattenkirk's presence has made the PP dangerous, has allowed Hitchcock to do a lot of the things he wants to do. And he's still getting better! Its the absolute dumbest time to trade him right now. In hindsight, and I know Colorado fans will maintain that EJ makes them better....but I think this was a brilliant move. The Blues' pro scouting has been reflected well by almost every trade they've done.

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02-27-2013, 03:51 PM
  #135
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It really was a great move. Shattenkirk has shined here and is just a better fit than Johnson was (especially when you add in Stewart also).

I believe it was P9 or someone who said that during the Blues draft special they did back in 2007, the Blues scouts were very high on Shattenkirk even at that time, so they got their guy. It's very good scouting.

Not only does he have great skills but he'll be wearing an 'A' in the future also. I see good leadership qualities in him, he's mature for his age and seems to be very well liked in the locker room. He is one of the untouchables on this team IMO, there's just no reason to even think of moving him.

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02-27-2013, 04:48 PM
  #136
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I have very little interest in trading Chris Stewart right now. Over 82 games, he is on pace for 32 goals and and 27 assists this year.

He is a little inconsistent still but he has been looking very good the past 10 games or so. He is playing with far more passion and intensity than I've seen from him in a blue note. His hands are also back to normal. He is making some slick moves, nice passes, and most of all some fantastic goals. He is one of the few guys we have that can hold his own in a fight and he is more than willing to drop the mitts. He is also flying on the ice. His improved conditioning is really showing.

Stewart is risky but I'm willing to call him a keeper. I don't think he will add back on the weight and lose motivation once he signs a 3+ year extension. Lazy players don't lose 20 pounds after a dismal season. Stewart knew how to improve his game and he did it. That's maturity.

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02-27-2013, 06:06 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by 2 Minute Minor View Post
Yeah, that was interesting. But I don't think Stewart's goals have been the difference in the team. I do think that implies he has a place on this team going forward, especially with how he's performed this season. He's not the most critical piece, but he's more than carrying his own weight now at least.

Shattenkirk's presence has made the PP dangerous, has allowed Hitchcock to do a lot of the things he wants to do. And he's still getting better! Its the absolute dumbest time to trade him right now. In hindsight, and I know Colorado fans will maintain that EJ makes them better....but I think this was a brilliant move. The Blues' pro scouting has been reflected well by almost every trade they've done.
Oh I totally agree. Shattenkirk is easily going to be the best player overall from that trade unless something horrific happens. (Or, I guess amazing, in that Rattie becomes the most prolific scorer in the league or some such.) The only way I move Shattenkirk is for an absolute no brainer like Malkin AND Letang or some other I'm-about-to-get-fired-anyway move from a GM.

I just thought it was interesting to point out that Stewart has actually been the best player on our team since that trade in scoring goals. Yes, he had his 15 in 26 games or whatever that was, but no one else has done -that- much better then him at putting the puck in the net over the same span.

I have very little interest in trading Chris Stewart right now either. I think Briere could help us this year with Frank and AMac being injured right now, and having a guy who always plays well in the playoffs might take some pressure off our other young guys (Schwartz/Tank) to score. It's the offseason that this becomes interesting. Unless Briere can move to the LW or C positions, we're going to have a huge log-jam at RW. I would probably rather keep Stewart then Briere, but moving Briere twice in the same season would be tough.

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02-27-2013, 06:52 PM
  #138
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The other thing that acquiring Briere does for the team, it makes them a lot more alert to Hitchcock's message. Suddenly, the idea that guys can get traded away becomes more of a reality. It also lets them know that management is going to get them help. Its a positive message while also being motivating.

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02-27-2013, 06:54 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by BadgersandBlues View Post
Oh I totally agree. Shattenkirk is easily going to be the best player overall from that trade unless something horrific happens. (Or, I guess amazing, in that Rattie becomes the most prolific scorer in the league or some such.) The only way I move Shattenkirk is for an absolute no brainer like Malkin AND Letang or some other I'm-about-to-get-fired-anyway move from a GM.

I just thought it was interesting to point out that Stewart has actually been the best player on our team since that trade in scoring goals. Yes, he had his 15 in 26 games or whatever that was, but no one else has done -that- much better then him at putting the puck in the net over the same span.

I have very little interest in trading Chris Stewart right now either. I think Briere could help us this year with Frank and AMac being injured right now, and having a guy who always plays well in the playoffs might take some pressure off our other young guys (Schwartz/Tank) to score. It's the offseason that this becomes interesting. Unless Briere can move to the LW or C positions, we're going to have a huge log-jam at RW. I would probably rather keep Stewart then Briere, but moving Briere twice in the same season would be tough.
Most goals =/= Best player. Backes, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, and McDonald have all been easily better players than Stewart over that time frame.

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02-27-2013, 07:09 PM
  #140
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Most goals =/= Best player. Backes, Perron, Oshie, Steen, Shattenkirk, Pietrangelo, and McDonald have all been easily better players than Stewart over that time frame.
His full statement was "best player.....at scoring goals".

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02-27-2013, 07:11 PM
  #141
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His full statement was "best player.....at scoring goals".
I probably should've read the entire sentence. My apologies.

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02-27-2013, 07:36 PM
  #142
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Agree with the notion that the Blues could use Briere (especially with McDonald down) and also that Armstrong won't overpay for him owing to the leverage of Briere's NMC. That NMC basically restricts Philly to negotiating with the Blues and maybe Boston (but even Boston fans acknowledge they'd buy him out in the offseason, which Briere & his agent would know, so unless they want that freedom Boston's iffy too). I think a 2d and a non-top tier prospect would work. Personally I'd trade Jordan Schmaltz for Briere straight up.

FWIW, Briere's comments contradict the TSN headline saying he wasn't going to waive his NMC:

Quote:
"I don't want to comment on anything at this point," Briere said. "Trades are not my department. I've been a Flyer for a long time. My heart belongs in Philadelphia with the Flyers. I can't see myself playing anywhere else."
This is a carefully phrased diplomacy comment. It rules out nothing. Just says no comment, love Philly, haven't thought about playing anywhere else. Basically a non-answer.

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02-27-2013, 07:55 PM
  #143
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How much does the lack of depth on the right side concern you guys?

Would you look into making a deal to add depth on that side? Talking about giving up nothing more than mid to late round pick for a 7th d man that can play in Peoria until needed.

I admit to not being in tune to what we have at Peoria right now for the record, but I know it isn't good.

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02-27-2013, 08:01 PM
  #144
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How much does the lack of depth on the right side concern you guys?

Would you look into making a deal to add depth on that side? Talking about giving up nothing more than mid to late round pick for a 7th d man that can play in Peoria until needed.

I admit to not being in tune to what we have at Peoria right now for the record, but I know it isn't good.
Can't Woyrika and Redden both play the right side? I know Cole can play the right side so if push came to shove you could put him there.

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02-27-2013, 08:05 PM
  #145
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How much does the lack of depth on the right side concern you guys?

Would you look into making a deal to add depth on that side? Talking about giving up nothing more than mid to late round pick for a 7th d man that can play in Peoria until needed.

I admit to not being in tune to what we have at Peoria right now for the record, but I know it isn't good.
Not a big deal. We can survive if Polak goes down, but even if we had depth and Petro or Shatty went down, we would still be in big trouble.

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02-27-2013, 08:50 PM
  #146
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What I'd like to see is a Top 3 group consisting of Petro/Shattenkirk/XXX. XXX would be most natural on the left, since the other two are most natural on the right. XXX is an all-situations two-way player who can easily handle 22 minutes a night. What this does is insulate the Blues from injury in a big way. Yes, if two of those guys get hurt you're screwed but that's not as likely as one of them being hurt. But even with one hurt you still have two great defensemen, one of whom can be on the ice the vast majority of the game the way Pronger and MacInnis could occupy 50 minutes out of 60 back there.

I'd like to see Jackman, Polak and Cole be the other three guys. That's a solid defense structure right there. That's the kind of structure Cup champs have.

Acquiring XXX has been the most high-profile trade talking point for going on two years now for a reason – it's very, very important and it's very, very hard. But once it's done you're set up to make perennial Cup runs. Some years one of those top guys is going to be hurt, and some years they'll all be healthy.

When we talk about trading away Shattenkirk, we make it doubly difficult to build this structure. Now you need to acquire two XXX players. It's definitely harder to acquire such a player than a 2d line center, the other Blues need. If you did something in a Shattenkirk/Couturier way, sure, you're basically set at forward, but now you limp along with a mediocre defense. Better to need only one player XXX and still need a better solution on one of the three lines at center than to need two XXX players.

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02-27-2013, 09:56 PM
  #147
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Phoenix makes such a good trade partner it's almost painful IMO

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02-27-2013, 10:30 PM
  #148
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Phoenix makes such a good trade partner it's almost painful IMO
I'm assuming you mean where we acquire a defenseman in exchange for no roster defenseman (not Phoenix' need) but rather forward(s) and/or future(s). Yeah, we've discussed the Yandle & Gormley ideas a LOT in the past year.

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02-27-2013, 10:32 PM
  #149
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I'm assuming you mean where we acquire a defenseman in exchange for no roster defenseman (not Phoenix' need) but rather forward(s) and/or future(s). Yeah, we've discussed the Yandle & Gormley ideas a LOT in the past year.
I was under the impression that Yandle's salary was outrageous (at least for us) to take on. Would love to have him, otherwise.

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If you did something in a Shattenkirk/Couturier way, sure, you're basically set at forward, but now you limp along with a mediocre defense. Better to need only one player XXX and still need a better solution on one of the three lines at center than to need two XXX players.
Agreed. Even though we need help up front, if it came right down to it, I'll take the xxx d-man, confident enough that if our forward corps were healthy, we'd still be a cup threat.

I also agree on the sentiment about Cole, Jackman and Polak. They're the perfect bottom three defensemen.

Grit, size and skill (in the case of Polak and Cole). Cole could really come into his own in this role, and I like him better down there than Russell or Redden obviously.


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02-27-2013, 10:48 PM
  #150
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I agree with P9's about the two "XXX's" that are needed and I think the LHD is more of a priority here. What he said about the core of the top three and Jax, Cole, Polak at the bottom will give us a team we can build around for many years to come. I think if that piece is available, we need to put ourselves in a position to make a move for it to start those runs now. I would have no problem putting together a 1st+ type package for that guy. From there we can deal from a strength (wing) to pick up that 3rd two way center and keep the building process going.

If you look at the draft last year, you can tell the ownership and scouts are looking at younger kids that are further off because we want to spread the talent out. If we took just one year of trading our 1st along with some other pieces, we should be able to pick up the two "needs" our team requires to build a contender for many years.

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